Self Defense for EMS

[Michael Sykes]

which bad neighborhood do you work in? If the scene isn't safe...don't enter it!!! Wait for the cops. If it takes 20 minutes, wait 20 minutes.


If your employer does not allow guns at work, they have the right to keep you off the truck. That may be the safest place for you and the gun.

AMEN! What's next; beating the pt senseless with a nightstick and cuffing them before working them?

IF YOU DON'T FEEL SAFE, BACK OUT!

 

[thatJeffguy]

you don't like cops very much do you?

I like cops very much. I do, however, recognize that a few bad apples get in the bunch.

 

[thatJeffguy]

My IFT job puts me in Newark, NJ, East orange, NJ, and NY, NY amoung other places with gang violence. I don't need a gun.

That's like saying that since an ambulance goes fast, we don't need seatbelts.

 

[DV_EMT]

To firecoins and the rest... I'll summarize my points

-2nd ammendment - we have the right to bear arms. Whether it be EMS, LEO, or a cook of some diner in the ghetto... we all are given that right if we feel unsafe.

- Liability - if the company you work for doesn't allow a firearm... then so be it. BUT.... If I know that I'm working in a dangerous environment... for prolonged periods of time... with LEO not showing up to every call... I'm going to be talking to my employer about making some arrangements to make me feel safer when I work (be it kevlar, hazmat suit, a gun, or swim trunks).

- Justified shot - If the PT or people in the scene are aggressive or combative. I have the right to tell them to calm down. I have the right to draw my firearm If I'm in danger. I have the right to shoot for self defense. It's the law... the PT may sue, but I know that my actions are just and that the witnesses (ie my partner) know that I did the appropriate thing based on the development of the scene.

Fight or flight mentality... IN EMS yes... it should be flight first.... then fight... but its just that.... if we NEED to fight... then why not fight with the right tools. I'm not saying that everyone here needs a fully stocked rig with C4, Colt M4 assualt rifles, trip mines or anything of the above.... but a simple pistol wouldn't hurt anyone except for the aggressor.... who would probably be treated after he'd been shot.

anyhow... lets contine the banter shall we?? B)

 

[firecoins]

-2nd ammendment - we have the right to bear arms. Whether it be EMS, LEO, or a cook of some diner in the ghetto... we all are given that right if we feel unsafe.

Your employment does not permit a gun. Hence your 2nd amendment right is irrelevant as long as you work for that employer.

-

Liability - if the company you work for doesn't allow a firearm... then so be it. BUT.... If I know that I'm working in a dangerous environment... for prolonged periods of time... with LEO not showing up to every call... I'm going to be talking to my employer about making some arrangements to make me feel safer when I work (be it kevlar, hazmat suit, a gun, or swim trunks).

Whatever it is, you employer does not allow guns. Hence you will not have a gun.

-

Justified shot - If the PT or people in the scene are aggressive or combative. I have the right to tell them to calm down. I have the right to draw my firearm If I'm in danger. I have the right to shoot for self defense. It's the law... the PT may sue, but I know that my actions are just and that the witnesses (ie my partner) know that I did the appropriate thing based on the development of the scene.

Many states require you "retreat" i.e. leave the scene before self defense can be used as a defense. Unless your back is against the wall and you can not escape, you will not be justified. Your protocols require you wait for PD to enter or RENTER such a scene. If can prove shooting is the ONLY choice it MIGHT be justified. I think having the gun will embolden you to enter scenes you should not have or stay on scene longer than you should have. You will end up finding yourself caught up some technicality because you didn't leave a scene you could have.

Fight or flight mentality... IN EMS yes... it should be flight first.... then fight... but its just that.... if we NEED to fight... then why not fight with the right tools. I'm not saying that everyone here needs a fully stocked rig with C4, Colt M4 assualt rifles, trip mines or anything of the above.... but a simple pistol wouldn't hurt anyone except for the aggressor.... who would probably be treated after he'd been shot.

Do you see EMS as a SWAT team? Maybe we should drive a tank. We can get armored cars as ambulances with turrets.

 

[firecoins]

That's like saying that since an ambulance goes fast, we don't need seatbelts.

How is it like saying an ambulance goes fast, we don't need seatbelts?

Guns have no place in EMS and you have presented no reason why they should be there.

Did you say before you were NOT an EMT yet?

 

[firecoins]

I like cops very much. I do, however, recognize that a few bad apples get in the bunch.

Yes. All the people with CCW permits and there isn't a bad apple n the bunch. You haven't presented any statisitcs that there are more bad apple cops than bad apple CCW permit holders.

 

[DT4EMS]

It is always interesting to see how this debate goes. For the past 13 years self-defense for EMS is what I have studied........

The "D" tank always comes up as does I will just carry a gun...........

First question......... "at what point are you justified in using the "D" tank?" Yes, there is a time when it would be justified.

Next....... Officers carry guns daily...... most officers know a gun fight occurs in less than 12 feet...... officer do a TON of training on weapon retention. Most departments have Level III security holsters to help keep control of a weapon. I have seen very few "concealed carry" holsters have very good retention.

Those of you that say it is good/ok to carry a weapon in EMS........ what kind of holster do you keep it in? Do you train in retention?

What is the chances of you being in a situation where deadly force is justified?

What type of attacks injure EMS providers the most?

I am all for people being able to carry concealed. I am all for EMS standing up for themselves when it comes to being assaulted.

This is my passion.........

 

[DT4EMS]

It is always interesting to see how this debate goes. For the past 13 years self-defense for EMS is what I have studied........

The "D" tank always comes up as does I will just carry a gun...........

First question......... "at what point are you justified in using the "D" tank?" Yes, there is a time when it would be justified.

Next....... Officers carry guns daily...... most officers know a gun fight occurs in less than 12 feet...... officer do a TON of training on weapon retention. Most departments have Level III security holsters to help keep control of a weapon. I have seen very few "concealed carry" holsters have very good retention.

Those of you that say it is good/ok to carry a weapon in EMS........ what kind of holster do you keep it in? Do you train in retention?

What is the chances of you being in a situation where deadly force is justified?

What type of attacks injure EMS providers the most?

I am all for people being able to carry concealed. I am all for EMS standing up for themselves when it comes to being assaulted.

This is my passion.........

One more point........ most states that have concealed carry ALSO have restrictions on where you can carry.


Those of you that are carrying concealed.......... What do you do with your weapon if you are called to a scene clearly posted "No concealed firearms allowed?"

 

[firecoins]

I respond to prisons. You think I will be allowed in with a gun? If the CO can't carry a gun, I can't.

 

[VentMedic]

Who should be carrying on the ambulance in very public situations? The concealed carry is meant for your personal safety in personal situations and not while engaging in "for hire" situations. Once it becomes known that you are being allowed to carry "on the EMS job" your responsibilities change and you may be held to a higher standard in the eyes of the law. You are no longer in your own vehicle or house but are now on the job entering the homes of other lawbiding citizens. LEOs make that very clear. As a citizen, I also have A RIGHT to know if you have brought weapon into my house for the safety of myself and my children especially if I know the ONLY training you have is a concealed weapon's class and you may have very awkwardly concealed your weapon with a less than adequate holster. Is the person responding an EMT or some wannabe cop that like toting a gun because he didn't make it as a cop? Some rescues will also make your weapon very vulnerable when your hands are supporting the patient or equipment. Thus, this is one reason why LEOs do not allow both of their hands and their attention to be distracted at a medical call. YOU may now be the one putting us in danger.

Will those who carry do all the "bad neighborhood" calls? While there are statistics for crime rates in certain areas, it could also be considered racial profiling by the ambulance companies to allow EMTs in just "those" types of neighborhoods to carry. Also, those that mean those who don't choose to carry will get the "nice" neighborhoods? But, any LEO will tell you it is the neighborhoods where you least expect to get shot that will get you killed and it is usually due to a surprised home owner that didn't call EMS or PD or a domestic. For the "bad" neighborhoods, you should already have a plan A, B and C as options.

I personally would not want to take a gun into an elementary or high school. Even wiry high schoolers with violence on their minds can easily get your gun. As well, when on ANY scene, all it takes is one person to spot your gun be it the patient or a bystander when they are not expecting a gun to be present and you get "GUN!!" screamed out into the crowd. I can almost guarantee you the scene will NOT go well for you after that.

Now, should employers raise their hiring standards and do more thorough background checks on those that want to carry a gun? Should the employers put this in their brochure or ads so the public will know those entering their homes, places of business, schools and churches that those responding for medical situations will be armed? Again, what someone does as a private citizen and what someone does on the job for hire and as a representative of that company are two very different situations.

It takes only a 4 hour class to get a concealed carry permit in some states. NC requires 8 hours. I know that might seem like a college degree to some but it is not enough to training for you to be considering the use of deadly force on the job.

Every state is different and no one should be considering carrying a weapon on the job without consulting the rules of their state and their employer. Your employer has every right to know you are carrying a weapon while on the job in his vehicle and place of business. If you do not have the guts to take this issue up legally with your employer then you do not have what it takes to even consider carrying a gun. If you do not see the need for more training beyond the bare minimum "hours of training" for a permit, you do not need to be carrying a gun on the job.

 

[reaper]

Ok, I am all for gun rights and have carried all my life. On the job is not the place for them. I have worked very bad cities, Like Miami.( which Vent can tell you how it gets) I have had times, when I wish I had a gun, but always found a way around the situation at hand. All it takes is a cool head and some logical thinking.

Like I said, Personal carry is fine. But, on the job is just not needed!

 

[VentMedic]

Ok, I am all for gun rights and have carried all my life. On the job is not the place for them. I have worked very bad cities, Like Miami.( which Vent can tell you how it gets) I have had times, when I wish I had a gun, but always found a way around the situation at hand. All it takes is a cool head and some logical thinking.

Like I said, Personal carry is fine. But, on the job is just not needed!

Usually those that don't live or work in "bad" cities are the ones who believe they need a gun. They only know what they have seen on TV.

I also bet some here who want to carry or are carrying are also wearing their iPODs, texting and oblivious to the world (either on or off duty). Even as a "novice" thief, I could probably pick their pockets and remove their weapon even if someone was trying to warn them since few can hear anything while being distracted.

 

[thatJeffguy]

Who should be carrying on the ambulance in very public situations? The concealed carry is meant for your personal safety in personal situations and not while engaging in "for hire" situations.

Is that caveat listed before or after "Shall not be infringed"? Does nine bucks an hour mean that it's OK if I get shot or killed? The USMC paid a bit more than that, with benefits, and they actually kinda encouraged us to be armed when we were "on the clock". Obviously, apples/oranges.

Once it becomes known that you are being allowed to carry "on the EMS job" your responsibilities change and you may be held to a higher standard in the eyes of the law. You are no longer in your own vehicle or house but are now on the job entering the homes of other lawbiding citizens.

If they are law abiding, and I'm law abiding, then no one would even know that I had a gun. If they weren't law abiding, and tried to kill me, I can't see my partner being terribly upset that I violated some company policy and saved our lives. If carrying a gun on an ambulance is such a horrific accident waiting to happen, why hasn't legislation been introduced to prevent it?

Is the person responding an EMT or some wannabe cop that like toting a gun because he didn't make it as a cop?

I feel that you don't know many gun owners. I also feel that you're entire debate is based on straw man arguments you've created that are quite improbable. If I wanted to be a "cop", I'd be one. Frankly, that job doesn't interest me much other than as an armorer or perhaps a tactical medic. I've had my fill of being a paid gun

However, we don't live in Russia, civilians are allowed to carry firearms in this nation. As a matter of fact, their are more CCW's than LEO's in states where CCW is "allowed".

Will those who carry do all the "bad neighborhood" calls? While there are statistics for crime rates in certain areas, it could also be considered racial profiling by the ambulance companies to allow EMTs in just "those" types of neighborhoods to carry.

How does "racism" come into this equation?

Also, those that mean those who don't choose to carry will get the "nice" neighborhoods? But, any LEO will tell you it is the neighborhoods where you least expect to get shot that will get you killed and it is usually due to a surprised home owner that didn't call EMS or PD or a domestic. For the "bad" neighborhoods, you should already have a plan A, B and C as options.

I've always got a few plans. I prefer that some company policy doesn't counter the law and my natural rights when making those plans.

I've also come up with a highly effective way to ensure that I'm carrying my gun when danger arises. I carry all the time. I carry when I'm at my bank, I carry when I'm at the corner store in the ghetto, I carry at Wal-Mart, I carry at Tiffany's, I carry at formal dinners, I carry at McDonalds. I'm an equal opportunity realist because I understand criminals are also equal opportunity.

I personally would not want to take a gun into an elementary or high school. Even wiry high schoolers with violence on their minds can easily get your gun.

???

Once again, you've taken the most dramatic extreme possibility, removed any trace of accounting for PROBABILTY, and set up a straw man argument. If these high school kids are all about stealing guns to kill people, why do the schools have law officers?

As well, when on ANY scene, all it takes is one person to spot your gun be it the patient or a bystander when they are not expecting a gun to be present and you get "GUN!!" screamed out into the crowd. I can almost guarantee you the scene will NOT go well for you after that.

You must live in a horrific neighborhood. If someone said "GUN" on the scene around here, we'd all look around, see that the inanimate object, like every other inanimate object, was either "safe" or "causing danger". I don't understand the mentality that you seem to have, in which the mere presence of a gun inspires high school students to attempt to steal it to kill classmates, or panic to run wild in the streets. It seems a very paranoid existence.

Now, should employers raise their hiring standards and do more thorough background checks on those that want to carry a gun? Should the employers put this in their brochure or ads so the public will know those entering their homes, places of business, schools and churches that those responding for medical situations will be armed? Again, what someone does as a private citizen and what someone does on the job for hire and as a representative of that company are two very different situations.

How about the company does what all major retailers do? "We adhere to state and federal laws regarding firearms". I mean, whats so bad about using the law as your guidelines?

It takes only a 4 hour class to get a concealed carry permit in some states. NC requires 8 hours. I know that might seem like a college degree to some but it is not enough to training for you to be considering the use of deadly force on the job.

Oh? And how many hours have you taken? Of course, I asked this question before, in the same post where I called out your absurd straw man arguments that you've used ad nauseum, and you ignored that post. As I'm sure you'll ignore this one.

Every state is different and no one should be considering carrying a weapon on the job without consulting the rules of their state and their employer.

Carrying on an ambulance, in a hospital, in a bar, in a church, are all legal here. I suppose one issue, if we were called to a Federal Building, such as a post office, we'd be prohibited from carrying within.

If you do not have the guts to take this issue up legally with your employer then you do not have what it takes to even consider carrying a gun.

I love how well you, a lady that doesn't carry a gun, understands the nuances of firearms training and tactics. Again, where have you trained? How many firearms do you own? How long did you spend in the military?

Let me guess... "nowhere, none and none". Right? Clearly, you're a qualified expert in this field.

If you do not see the need for more training beyond the bare minimum "hours of training" for a permit, you do not need to be carrying a gun on the job.

I spent four years in the military and I've taken about 12 (IIRC) classes relating to firearms usage. Am I "qualified" enough to obey the law and the Constitution?

 

[medichopeful]

I love how well you, a lady that doesn't carry a gun, understands the nuances of firearms training and tactics. Again, where have you trained? How many firearms do you own? How long did you spend in the military?

Alright, I'll turn this question around on you. As far as I know, you haven't spent nearly as much time as Vent in the healthcare field or on an ambulance. So how do you understand the issues of weapons in the field of healthcare as well as Vent does? How much medical training do you have? How much field experience? How much time have you spent on an ambulance?

 

[VentMedic]

Originally Posted by thatJeffguy
I love how well you, a lady that doesn't carry a gun, understands the nuances of firearms training and tactics. Again, where have you trained? How many firearms do you own? How long did you spend in the military?

Alright, I'll turn this question around on you. As far as I know, you haven't spent nearly as much time as Vent in the health care field or on an ambulance. So how do you understand the issues of weapons in the field of health care as well as Vent does? How much medical training do you have? How much field experience? How much time have you spent on an ambulance?

If he had read any of my posts or reaper's he would know I do have a concealed weapon permit and have had one for many years, probably longer than he has been alive. From what his posts indicate, he is not really in any aspect of EMS and is probably just trolling this forum as he has others. He does not seem to know the difference between the military "hours of training" for carrying a gun and that of a concealed weapons permit. He writes more like a frustrated wannabe cop than anyone who had any interest in helping people medically. Although he states he doesn't want to be a cop, which is probably too boring since they don't draw their weapon that often, but instead wants to be a SWAT or tactical medic.

Once again, you've taken the most dramatic extreme possibility, removed any trace of accounting for PROBABILTY, and set up a straw man argument. If these high school kids are all about stealing guns to kill people, why do the schools have law officers?

Are you really that clueless about the age of the gang members? Yes, some schools even at the elementary level have LEOs. This is not a "probability" but a reality and if you had any medical experience you would know this especially in the cities but even small towns are not immune to violence in the schools. The last thing I want to do is promote gun carrying as cool in the school. I would rather be seen as an example for being a medical professional.

How about the company does what all major retailers do? "We adhere to state and federal laws regarding firearms". I mean, whats so bad about using the law as your guidelines?

The conceal weapon laws in the majority of states allow employers to clearly state if they want weapons on their employees and place of business. If you can not respect the law, you are no better than the ones you want to shoot. It is because fanatics like you that we must be very cautious about who we allow to carry a gun and who we should allow to wear an EMT patch.

I've had my fill of being a paid gun

That also includes being a volunteer EMT. The volunteers have enough problems without some gun toting over zealous cowboy wearing their uniform.

 

[thatJeffguy]

If he had read any of my posts or reaper's he would know I do have a concealed weapon permit and have had one for many years, probably longer than he has been alive. From what his posts indicate, he is not really in any aspect of EMS and is probably just trolling this forum as he has others.

Clearly, you've read none of my posts. Perhaps posts number "one" or "two" might be of assistance in clarification. To answer the question, I am awaiting the beginning of my EMT-b classes, then going to my EMT-p classes. My father is a surgeon and I've worked in the OR for two years, plus helping my fathers friends (pathologists) in the morgue since I was about five years old. Obviously, none of this qualifies me to speak about EMS and, if you'll note, I don't.

He does not seem to know the difference between the military "hours of training" for carrying a gun and that of a concealed weapons permit.

Sweety, each state is different. In my home state of PA, I had to have a grand total of 0h, 0m and 0s training to carry a sidearm. Also, my state doesn't issue a "permit", it issues a "license".

He writes more like a frustrated wannabe cop than anyone who had any interest in helping people medically.

And, of course, if I hopped into every medical thread I'd be a whacker wanna-be. I couldn't really care less what you think of me, but I do think that your assessment is a bit off here. Why would I be a "wannabe" cop? Had I wanted to go around shooting people, I'd have reenlisted in the military.

Of course, you just aren't able to grasp the concept that carrying a weapon is a natural right. Anyone who, in your mind, wants to carry a weapon somehow must seem themselves as a vigilante. I'm very confused that you, allegedly, have a CCW yet you frequently post as to how a gun is ineffective for self-defense because you can't access it quickly enough. Don't let logical inconsistencies interfere with your non-stop run of straw men arguments though!!

Although he states he doesn't want to be a cop, which is probably too boring since they don't draw their weapon that often, but instead wants to be a SWAT or tactical medic.

You've probably done the worst assessment of an individual that's ever taken place. I'm sorry if my aspirations don't meet with your approval. I'm going to lock myself in the closet and cry now because some ignorant chick on the internet doesn't like what I wanna do.

Are you really that clueless about the age of the gang members? Yes, some schools even at the elementary level have LEOs. This is not a "probability" but a reality and if you had any medical experience you would know this especially in the cities but even small towns are not immune to violence in the schools.

Once again, the entire notion of "This area is VERY DANGEROUS, we'd better make sure we're unarmed" just doesn't make sense. I'm sure that your vast knowledge and experience has led you to at least one incident of a high schooler grabbing a lawfully carried sidearm and shooting someone, right? Right? Echo? Crickets chirping? Thought so. While we're talking about schools and shootings, check out that shooting at Appalachian State University. Some whacko went nuts with a gun and before the LEO's could show up to deal with it, some armed students took matters into their own hands and put the guy down. Why didn't those students go bat-:censored::censored::censored::censored: insane with THEIR gun and go on a killing spree like everyone else that touches a gun?

The last thing I want to do is promote gun carrying as cool in the school. I would rather be seen as an example for being a medical professional.

You're just not quite getting the concept of "Concealed" are you, darling? And if these kids are already so violent and ready to go on a killing spree, wouldn't it be a bit better to actually be armed?

The conceal weapon laws in the majority of states allow employers to clearly state if they want weapons on their employees and place of business.

Oh? Could you please show me the text of these laws? Most states don't specifically state about employers, they simply state if you're told to not have a weapon on that private property, you must leave or face trespassing charges. I'm sure you got your law degree right after you were awarded your Five-Gun Master trophy though, right sweety?

can not respect the law, you are no better than the ones you want to shoot.

The law? You mean, "shall not be infringed"? I respect that every day.

Of course, if I carried on an ambulance, in a school or in the hospital, I'd be breaking no law. So once again, where did you get your law degree?

It is because fanatics like you that we must be very cautious about who we allow to carry a gun and who we should allow to wear an EMT patch.

I doubt your ability to read English. What is "Fanatic" about what I've said? The only thing fanatic I've seen here is your affinity for ignorance, presuppositions and straw man arguments.

That also includes being a volunteer EMT. The volunteers have enough problems without some gun toting over zealous cowboy wearing their uniform.

"over zealous"?


Any reason you didn't answer any of my questions? It's ok darling, not everyone has a mind capable of critical thought. If I were painting myself into the idiot corner, I wouldn't answer questions anyway. Thanks for playing though, back to work now.

 

[thatJeffguy]

Alright, I'll turn this question around on you. As far as I know, you haven't spent nearly as much time as Vent in the healthcare field or on an ambulance.

Most likely correct.

So how do you understand the issues of weapons in the field of healthcare as well as Vent does? How much medical training do you have? How much field experience? How much time have you spent on an ambulance?

I don't see how any of this is appropriate to the discussion. My lack of medical training is why I don't pop into the medical threads and opine. We're talking about firearms, though, not medicine. I guarantee I've put more time on the range and in classwork than Vent has, I guarantee I've been in bad situations involving flying bullets more than she has and I'll guarantee I've read more of the concealed carry laws than she has. Thus, medicine; she deals with. Firearms; I'll throw in my opinion on.

But, whatever. This discussion is going nowhere. The prerequisite for a fear of inanimate objectis is a lack of ability to think critically and rationally. That's the same reason that none of the hoplophobes here ever answer any of my questions; you just want to continue your "gunz r teh badz n kill ppl" monologue with no ability to understand the other side or address specific points. If I want to deal with the mentally disabled, I'd get into that field.

“A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity” - Sigmund Freud

Maybe the hoplophobes here can get some help with their sexual and emotional maturity issues? I couldn't care less. Unless people answer the questions that I've asked of them, my continual presence here accomplishes nothing. Revel in your ignorance, but do it alone.

 

[firecoins]

Any reason you didn't answer any of my questions? It's ok darling, not everyone has a mind capable of critical thought. If I were painting myself into the idiot corner, I wouldn't answer questions anyway. Thanks for playing though, back to work now.

careful. You have not presented any intelligent rational arguments for EMS carrying guns. I have had my problems with Vent but she has shown a million times the ability of critical thought than yourself.

I do IFts in Newark and other NJ gang infested towns delivering people home to projects with drugs and gangs. No PD present. I don't need a gun

 

[thatJeffguy]

careful. You have not presented any intelligent rational arguments for EMS carrying guns. I have had my problems with Vent but she has shown a million times the ability of critical thought than yourself.

Oh? Shes gone through and answered the questions that I've asked in relation to her posts? Need I go through, as I've already done with you, and show the posts she's not responded to?

Also, flipping a comment back around was great in third grade. However, when I respond, point by point, to each comment made, every comment in every post, clearly I'm not lacking "critical thinking skills". You might disagree, but you can at least see that I respond to all questions that come up, rather than glossing overthem.

As I said, it's OK though. I understand not everyone has the capacity for debate, discussion or critical thought. I suppose our schools are to blame, somewhat, though some here seem to have done well.