Self Defense for EMS

[nomofica]

Instead of carrying weapons, why not just learn something like Jui-jitsu/Brazilian Jui-jitsu or even Krav Maga?

 

[firecoins]

Instead of carrying weapons, why not just learn something like Jui-jitsu/Brazilian Jui-jitsu or even Krav Maga?

I think we have a winner.

 

[firecoins]

I like how shooting innocent people by accident is glossed over as no biggie.

I have worked in NYC, Newark, East Orange and other areas where OD and EMS are distrusted in certain neighborhood . Carrying a gun won't help.

 

[DV_EMT]

Of what use is the gun if it is not readily available? By the time you are confronted and then fumble around to get it out of concealment, I doubt if you will be the winner. Didn't they teach you that in your conceal weapon class?

lets see.... 5.11 makes a shirt (a duty shirt nonetheless) that has a concealed front pocket that is hidden by velcro.... designed for LEO... so if the ankle holster is too awkward for you... how bout a shirt that conceals the gun and.... wait for it!!!! holds the gun like uncercover cops, CIA, FBI, and secret service... they're also the small of the back holster where you can conceal it if your waering a jacket at night!...

Do you really think that gun/LEO clothing companies wouldnt make an easy access concealed weapon holster? That's where they make A LOT of they're money!

Or better yet... lets just se it up like LEO cruisers and put a shotgun/AR in a locked gun rack? better idea? non concealed and ready to use?

 

[Shamrock]

Here's a vote for Krav Maga.

I originally took it up as a more interesting form of Cardio. Turned out to be extremely informative. I have never been interested in Martial Arts before and I still was able to quickly grasp the concepts. Very realistic real life methods to quickly disarm situations.

 

[medichopeful]

irregardless isn't a word. i only say this because i came across the extremely intellectual(pun intended) article on cracked.com

http://www.cracked.com/article_15664_9-words-that-dont-mean-what-you-think.html

WARNING: foul language

or you could use wiki

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irregardless



oh, and btw, tasers FTW

Thanks for calling me out on that one.

Irregardless (B)) of what the article says about the word, the English language is evolving. So though it may not be an official word, it is in common usage, so it may be made official sometime soon.

 

[medichopeful]

I'm not an EMT yet, so you'll note I don't go into EMT threads and try to criticize or infuse my views. How much experience do you have with pistolcraft?

Just curious, what is it that you're doing right now, exactly? Because you seem to be in an EMS thread, infusing your views. Unless I read your posts wrong.

 

[Michael Sykes]

Just curious, what is it that you're doing right now, exactly? Because you seem to be in an EMS thread, infusing your views. Unless I read your posts wrong.

I've grown up around handguns, and have a CCW permit. I can tell you this: If you're already looking at someone with a gun pointed at you, it's too damn late to be pulling YOURS!

 

[DV_EMT]

I've grown up around handguns, and have a CCW permit. I can tell you this: If you're already looking at someone with a gun pointed at you, it's too damn late to be pulling YOURS!

which is why..... you have a partner..... because dual wielding guns is hard to do and impractical.

In agreement to the statement, above... generally speaking... if a gun is pointed at you... its probably too late. But, there are times where you having your gun out beforehand isn't a bad thing. for instance... just like Highway patrol ALWAYS has their hand on their gun when approaching a vehicle.... EMS should ALWAYS be thinking... what if the scene isn't safe and what should I do in case i get put in a position that i can't get out of. Being armed can solve some of the problems.... but others require law enforcement.

So.. ya gotta keep options open!

 

[VentMedic]

.

In agreement to the statement, above... generally speaking... if a gun is pointed at you... its probably too late. But, there are times where you having your gun out beforehand isn't a bad thing. for instance... just like Highway patrol ALWAYS has their hand on their gun when approaching a vehicle.... EMS should ALWAYS be thinking... what if the scene isn't safe and what should I do in case i get put in a position that i can't get out of. Being armed can solve some of the problems.... but others require law enforcement.

So.. ya gotta keep options open!

So now you are acting like a Highway Patrol officer?

If you believe the scene is UNSAFE to where you must approach with a gun drawn you should be following your protocol for an UNSAFE scene and not pretending do be a cop.

It is also very difficult to identify yourself as a medical person when you have your gun drawn. How are your going to identify yourself? If the LEOs identify themselves, it is now known they are armed. Are you going to announce you have a weapon and what your intent is? If you fail to identify yourself and someone shoots you because you have a gun, they may have that right in their own defense especially with the way many EMTs are dressed with their shirts or T-shirts hanging out of their pants. Also, you are now viewed as the aggressor by the other person and will also be viewed that way in a court of law. Again, this will be especially true since YOU approached a scene YOU already considered to be UNSAFE with your weapon ready.

If you want to be a cop, apply to a law enforcement agency or find a Public Safety agency that will allow you to do both. However, there are probably some on this forum that didn't make it past the entry exams to be a Police Officer and now believe they can live out their fantasies by wearing a uniform, driving real fast with the L&S and a hand on their gun.

EMS attracts some questionable whackers as it is. Imagine if EMS also started attracting all the "I wanna carry a gun" cop wannabes now. A concealed weapon permit is not difficult to get and an EMT cert is only a 110 hours. That's a lot easier than the police academy especially if they flunked that attempt. LEO candidates must pass a psychological exam. EMTs may just have to show up with a cert. EMTs sometimes don't even have a background check done in a few states and it is possible no one will check after they get their initial certification again to see what crimes they commited once certified. California has been a safe haven for EMTs with criminal pasts. States don't check people with concealed gun permits to see if they are "maintaining their skills" of handling a gun. Some EMS agencies don't even check to see if their EMTs are maintaining their EMT-B or P skills.

 

[medichopeful]

I've grown up around handguns, and have a CCW permit. I can tell you this: If you're already looking at someone with a gun pointed at you, it's too damn late to be pulling YOURS!

I completely agree. If the gun is pointed towards you, you are in some serious trouble.

I am fine with people doing CCW, but not when they are acting as a medical professional. It would just put the "oh look, more cops!" thought into the heads of the public. I know if I wasn't getting involved in this field, and I had an EMT respond with a gun, I would have a serious problem. And I'm a major supporter of law enforcement.

But the thing is, like I said, if EMTs start carrying guns, they're going to be looked on as cops. And do you think people trust cops all that much? Unfortunately now. Do you think people will tell an EMT what really happened if they know that the person may be carrying a gun? Remember, they may make the association.

 

[Michael Sykes]

which is why..... you have a partner..... because dual wielding guns is hard to do and impractical.

In agreement to the statement, above... generally speaking... if a gun is pointed at you... its probably too late. But, there are times where you having your gun out beforehand isn't a bad thing. for instance... just like Highway patrol ALWAYS has their hand on their gun when approaching a vehicle.... EMS should ALWAYS be thinking... what if the scene isn't safe and what should I do in case i get put in a position that i can't get out of. Being armed can solve some of the problems.... but others require law enforcement.

So.. ya gotta keep options open!

Yeah, but it's kind of hard to do even a basic pt assessment if you've got one hand on your gun.

 

[DV_EMT]

So now you are acting like a Highway Patrol officer?

If you believe the scene is UNSAFE to where you must approach with a gun drawn you should be following your protocol for an UNSAFE scene and not pretending do be a cop.

It is also very difficult to identify yourself as a medical person when you have your gun drawn. How are your going to identify yourself? If the LEOs identify themselves, it is now known they are armed. Are you going to announce you have a weapon and what your intent is? If you fail to identify yourself and someone shoots you because you have a gun, they may have that right in their own defense especially with the way many EMTs are dressed with their shirts or T-shirts hanging out of their pants. Also, you are now viewed as the aggressor by the other person and will also be viewed that way in a court of law. Again, this will be especially true since YOU approached a scene YOU already considered to be UNSAFE with your weapon ready.

If you want to be a cop, apply to a law enforcement agency or find a Public Safety agency that will allow you to do both. However, there are probably some on this forum that didn't make it past the entry exams to be a Police Officer and now believe they can live out their fantasies by wearing a uniform, driving real fast with the L&S and a hand on their gun.

EMS attracts some questionable whackers as it is. Imagine if EMS also started attracting all the "I wanna carry a gun" cop wannabes now. A concealed weapon permit is not difficult to get and an EMT cert is only a 110 hours. That's a lot easier than the police academy especially if they flunked that attempt. LEO candidates must pass a psychological exam. EMTs may just have to show up with a cert. EMTs sometimes don't even have a background check done in a few states and it is possible no one will check after they get their initial certification again to see what crimes they commited once certified. California has been a safe haven for EMTs with criminal pasts. States don't check people with concealed gun permits to see if they are "maintaining their skills" of handling a gun. Some EMS agencies don't even check to see if their EMTs are maintaining their EMT-B or P skills.

Look... I'm not Suggesting that EVERY SINGLE EMT/MEDIC has to carry a firearm... concealed or not...

What I am suggesting is that in a neighborhood that is dangerous/high crime rate/ metropolis... PD isn't going to be there with you on every call.... and having the option (based on company policy) to carry a CCW for your own safety should be allowed. I'm sure you'd have to find a partner who is ok with you having a gun... and I'm sure the company want you to do a psych test.

Remember.... there is a constitutional ammendment fo the right to bear arms. If you don't feel safe... you have the right to personal safety!

Thats all

 

[thatJeffguy]

Look... I'm not Suggesting that EVERY SINGLE EMT/MEDIC has to carry a firearm... concealed or not...

What I am suggesting is that in a neighborhood that is dangerous/high crime rate/ metropolis... PD isn't going to be there with you on every call.... and having the option (based on company policy) to carry a CCW for your own safety should be allowed. I'm sure you'd have to find a partner who is ok with you having a gun... and I'm sure the company want you to do a psych test.

Remember.... there is a constitutional ammendment fo the right to bear arms. If you don't feel safe... you have the right to personal safety!

Thats all

I think that the problem here, DV_EMT, is that some people, mainly the "I'm scared of inanimate objects" crowd, feels that all gun owners are out to be Wyatt Earp and off some bad guys. That is patently false. Statistically speaking, a LEO is more likely to commit a violent crime than a holder of a CCW/LTCH. Regardless, it's imperative to the point that you and I agree on that we try to educate the hoplophobes that we don't want to carry a gun to "stop crime", per se, we want to be able to obey the law when we're at work. I'm not going to rush into a bad scene thinking that my gun will solve the problems, but if I'm IN a bad location where my life is at stake, I'd prefer to be allowed my Constitutional, and thus God-given right, to defend myself.

Of course, as we see here, we get some people that possess such irrational fears that they'd refuse to treat someone simply because they were exercising their Constitutional rights. I hope that happens in PA one day and some EMT's lose a few million dollars of their personal fortune (hah) and set a good precedent.

I just don't see the critical thinking necessary to have a fast-paced,life-or-death job displayed in some of the posters here, no offense and I'm not singling anyone out.

Let's say you come to a scene where an individual is down, severe laceration upper leg, arterial blood spurting out, and you notice he's got a sidearm on his hip, openly being carried. Let's also postulate that you're in a state where open carry is permitted. Essentially, a severely injured person is lying there with an inanimate object on their hip, obeying the law.

You've only got a certain number of options here;

1) You could call the scene "unsafe" and let the guy bleed out while waiting for a LEO to respond, which could take some time. Essentially, you're allowing someone to die because they've decided to exercise their Constitutional rights. They've committed no crime, they're breaking no laws, they're threatening no one, yet you're withholding critical medical care simply because a long list of "possible" actions could cause someone to be injured.

2) Attempt to "secure" the weapon yourself, or ask the patient to do so. If you don't know how to secure the weapon, if you aren't familiar with the mechanics of that specific weapon or the rules of firearm safety, you probably shouldn't be doing this. Even if you ARE weapons-savvy, you've got to understand that a "gun in a holster" is more secure than "a gun being removed and having it's mechanics operated". What are you going to do when you go to clear the guys gun and negligently discharge it? Say "oops"? Is it a better option to have the guy try to secure his own weapon as he's bleeding out? Nope.

3) Realize that this is a free country, and a free state, and that individuals have different opinions of self-defense. Since you've got no evidence that the individual is breaking the law, and since we know that the most secure place for a firearm is in the holster of a trained individual (read: the owner), you decide to approach, begin treatment, notify LEO, make sure you and your partner are both keeping an eye on the sidearm and constantly appraising the situation.

Of the three scenarios, my uneducated opinion is number 3. YMMV, of course. I just hope when you let some guy bleed out because he decided to obey the law that morning, you've got a fantastic lawyer somewhere. I also hope you don't live in an area that allows hunting of animals, as any hunter involved in a negligent shooting would die before you'd provide care.

 

[Michael Sykes]

I think that the problem here, DV_EMT, is that some people, mainly the "I'm scared of inanimate objects" crowd, feels that all gun owners are out to be Wyatt Earp and off some bad guys. That is patently false. Statistically speaking, a LEO is more likely to commit a violent crime than a holder of a CCW/LTCH. Regardless, it's imperative to the point that you and I agree on that we try to educate the hoplophobes that we don't want to carry a gun to "stop crime", per se, we want to be able to obey the law when we're at work. I'm not going to rush into a bad scene thinking that my gun will solve the problems, but if I'm IN a bad location where my life is at stake, I'd prefer to be allowed my Constitutional, and thus God-given right, to defend myself.

Of course, as we see here, we get some people that possess such irrational fears that they'd refuse to treat someone simply because they were exercising their Constitutional rights. I hope that happens in PA one day and some EMT's lose a few million dollars of their personal fortune (hah) and set a good precedent.

I just don't see the critical thinking necessary to have a fast-paced,life-or-death job displayed in some of the posters here, no offense and I'm not singling anyone out.

Let's say you come to a scene where an individual is down, severe laceration upper leg, arterial blood spurting out, and you notice he's got a sidearm on his hip, openly being carried. Let's also postulate that you're in a state where open carry is permitted. Essentially, a severely injured person is lying there with an inanimate object on their hip, obeying the law.

You've only got a certain number of options here;

1) You could call the scene "unsafe" and let the guy bleed out while waiting for a LEO to respond, which could take some time. Essentially, you're allowing someone to die because they've decided to exercise their Constitutional rights. They've committed no crime, they're breaking no laws, they're threatening no one, yet you're withholding critical medical care simply because a long list of "possible" actions could cause someone to be injured.

2) Attempt to "secure" the weapon yourself, or ask the patient to do so. If you don't know how to secure the weapon, if you aren't familiar with the mechanics of that specific weapon or the rules of firearm safety, you probably shouldn't be doing this. Even if you ARE weapons-savvy, you've got to understand that a "gun in a holster" is more secure than "a gun being removed and having it's mechanics operated". What are you going to do when you go to clear the guys gun and negligently discharge it? Say "oops"? Is it a better option to have the guy try to secure his own weapon as he's bleeding out? Nope.

3) Realize that this is a free country, and a free state, and that individuals have different opinions of self-defense. Since you've got no evidence that the individual is breaking the law, and since we know that the most secure place for a firearm is in the holster of a trained individual (read: the owner), you decide to approach, begin treatment, notify LEO, make sure you and your partner are both keeping an eye on the sidearm and constantly appraising the situation.

Of the three scenarios, my uneducated opinion is number 3. YMMV, of course. I just hope when you let some guy bleed out because he decided to obey the law that morning, you've got a fantastic lawyer somewhere. I also hope you don't live in an area that allows hunting of animals, as any hunter involved in a negligent shooting would die before you'd provide care.

My question to you, based on the scenario above, where the pt is down, arterial blood spurting from a leg wound-How do you suggest a pt with a pistol in a holster secure the gun any more safely than to turn it over to you? Many holsters are "snap flap" whereby the entire holster can be snapped off the belt. You might feel the back of the holster and, if so equipped, ask the pt if you can remove it. If he refuses, have your partner secure his arms, and remove it anyway. He sure isn't going to kick you if he's bleeding that bad.

 

[thatJeffguy]

My question to you, based on the scenario above, where the pt is down, arterial blood spurting from a leg wound-How do you suggest a pt with a pistol in a holster secure the gun any more safely than to turn it over to you?

I wouldn't. A sidearm in a holster is secure. Cops have their weapons "secured" on their persons, I find that acceptable. Now obviously, a gun lying around would be a different scenario.

Many holsters are "snap flap" whereby the entire holster can be snapped off the belt. You might feel the back of the holster and, if so equipped, ask the pt if you can remove it. If he refuses, have your partner secure his arms, and remove it anyway. He sure isn't going to kick you if he's bleeding that bad.

I would never remove a firearm from someone against their will unless they'd initiated force against me. My personal opinion, and it's just that, is that I'd begin treatment and mention to the guy that I'm a big fan of firearms and that, while I don't specifically care that he's armed, it would make things go much smoother at the ER if his weapon was removed from his person and unloaded. Agreed about the holster, though. I suppose if we were at a juncture where the patient was "stable" and ready for transport, yet still had the firearm on his belt and I knew I'd lose my job if he rolled into the ER with the gun, I'd probably have to call LEO and let them deal with it. I'd feel quite bad about this, of course, since LEO aren't always known to be respectful of the property of others. If the guy was balls-out dying if he wasn't on the ambulance, I'd ask permission to remove the gun, drop the mag, lock back the slide, put it all in a biohazard bag, tie it off and put it in an external compartment of the ambulance, locked. Once we got to the hospital, I'd let the docs know. I'd rather lose my job than let someone die, I can always find another job, but I've got to look myself in the face every morning no matter what.

Hope that clarifies it some!

 

[Michael Sykes]

I wouldn't. A sidearm in a holster is secure. Cops have their weapons "secured" on their persons, I find that acceptable. Now obviously, a gun lying around would be a different scenario.



I would never remove a firearm from someone against their will unless they'd initiated force against me. My personal opinion, and it's just that, is that I'd begin treatment and mention to the guy that I'm a big fan of firearms and that, while I don't specifically care that he's armed, it would make things go much smoother at the ER if his weapon was removed from his person and unloaded. Agreed about the holster, though. I suppose if we were at a juncture where the patient was "stable" and ready for transport, yet still had the firearm on his belt and I knew I'd lose my job if he rolled into the ER with the gun, I'd probably have to call LEO and let them deal with it. I'd feel quite bad about this, of course, since LEO aren't always known to be respectful of the property of others. If the guy was balls-out dying if he wasn't on the ambulance, I'd ask permission to remove the gun, drop the mag, lock back the slide, put it all in a biohazard bag, tie it off and put it in an external compartment of the ambulance, locked. Once we got to the hospital, I'd let the docs know. I'd rather lose my job than let someone die, I can always find another job, but I've got to look myself in the face every morning no matter what.

Hope that clarifies it some!

Just my opinion, but a siedarm in a holster is NOT secure if the pt has a free arm. No firearm is secure as long as it is in custody of the pt. I'm not in favor of forcibly removing it, either, but force is better than death, especially if it were mine. Always try "BS'ing" it away from him before using force. Remember, a 98-pound weakling on PCP can be as strong as an ox.

 

[firecoins]

Statistically speaking, a LEO is more likely to commit a violent crime than a holder of a CCW/LTCH.

Show me a source for that statistic. I find this "statisitic" to be ridiculous. People with CCWs are not required to have as much training as LEOs.

3) Realize that this is a free country, and a free state, and that individuals have different opinions of self-defense.

Yes those in non free countries all have the same opinion. Why does EMS need to carry?

Nothing you have said to this point demonstates why Emergency MEDICAL Services need firearms. My IFT job puts me in Newark, NJ, East orange, NJ, and NY, NY amoung other places with gang violence. I don't need a gun.

A gun in a holster is not a secure place inside the back of ambulance.

 

[firecoins]

Statistically speaking, a LEO is more likely to commit a violent crime than a holder of a CCW/LTCH.

I'd feel quite bad about this, of course, since LEO aren't always known to be respectful of the property of others.

you don't like cops very much do you?

 

[firecoins]

What I am suggesting is that in a neighborhood that is dangerous/high crime rate/ metropolis... PD isn't going to be there with you on every call.... and having the option (based on company policy) to carry a CCW for your own safety should be allowed. I'm sure you'd have to find a partner who is ok with you having a gun... and I'm sure the company want you to do a psych test.

which bad neighborhood do you work in? If the scene isn't safe...don't enter it!!! Wait for the cops. If it takes 20 minutes, wait 20 minutes.

Remember.... there is a constitutional ammendment fo the right to bear arms. If you don't feel safe... you have the right to personal safety!

Thats all

If your employer does not allow guns at work, they have the right to keep you off the truck. That may be the safest place for you and the gun.