School Nurse Wanna Be's

[Sasha]

BGL is part of my standard vitals on anything that isnt a routine discharge.

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[IRIDEZX6R]

My apologies, sadly I let my emotions get to me a little bit too much at that point.

*cough*

Not saying a Paramedic can't be a School Nurse.

Yes you are.

but they don't have the education without proper certification. Sorry, but I have decently lengthy responses and comments on the whole issue in this thread.

They're more than capable, just not in your skew sense of reality... School nurses, are very BLS... Anything more and they call, what? Thats right paramedics...

My little sister whos 10 has a quote... Never argue with a moron, they'll drag you down to their level and beat you with experience..

Not calling Happy a moron... But I don't feel that arguing our point will ever change her mind, she's set on her thought process.. no matter how askew it may be and we can't change it... Same goes for us, she couldn't change our minds either..

This ends my thoughts, because lets face it.... I do not want to become the subject of the sherrifs' undivided attention..

 

[Sasha]

So because you answer random questions, you can weigh in on meeting where a student's educational plan is being impacted based on their condition or medications?

So you feel prepared to discuss things like puberty with preteens?

How good are you on recognizing developmental delays in young elementary school students?

When i went to school the last two were done by the teachers and guidance counselors. The school nurse was just there to let you take nap because you had a headache

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[Katy]

I was really trying to refrain from making any comments on this thread, after reading all of it. However, just like others, I just can't resist the lure of the train wreck.



And how to you arrive at the conclusion that paramedics are uneducated in "day-to-day patient education"? I call tell you there is rarely a shift that goes by where I don't educate at least one patient about something, whether it is answering questions about a chronic illness, a medication, specific acute episodes, or what have you.

You keep dragging back up this all important certificate, that the nurse must have to be a school nurse. For sake of argument, let's pretend the department of education (or whichever government agency it was in your state that dictated it) removed the requirement of a BSN to take this all-important certification, and anyone with medical training, no matter how little, could take this class, challenge the test, and receive the holy certificate. How then is the nurse any more knowledgeable in the "specialty" of school health care provider?

It doesn't make them any more knowledgeable, I have said that numerous times. But because it isn't possible, you can't logically say they get the proper certification and training.
My "day-to-day patient education" in a school setting.

Since when is teaching a skill that isn't difficult? Wait, let me add a qualifier to that, and make it "good at teaching." Heaven knows there are countless people out there, even those with a Bachelors or Masters in Education, that are far from "good at teaching." A couple prereq classes while in college do not make a nurse (or a medic for that matter) a good instructor. Just because someone can teach, doesn't mean they should.

Depending on the age group and the subject, it varies. But the basic principles of teaching aren't that complex. I know that, a close family member has a Master's in her Education, so I have a good bit of knowledge regarding that aspect of Education. No, it doesn't, it does however make them a better instructor than one who doesn't have the qualifications, which the paramedic can't. This is true, but why would it matter in this discussion ?

And what documentation is it, exactly, that the nurse has more training and experience with? If you are talking documentation in general, both medics and nurses are required to do plenty of documentation. If you are referring to job related documents, then of course the person working within that specific capacity is going to have more knowledge and experience. Anyone who isn't employed by the school will not be familiar with the paperwork the health care provider needs to complete. I would be willing to bet that there are even some variations from one school district to another.

Educational documentation and principles, specifically to the School Nurse. No, I'm not.

Making public speeches isn't part of the job for most nurses either. And, who said you have to be educated to be a good public speaker? Some people are just a natural at giving speeches. That being said, giving a public speech isn't the same thing as educating a group of people. A speech is typically one sided. The speaker says what they have to say, and there may or may not be an opportunity to address him or her regarding various points of the speech. When you are educating a group of people, there is typically some sort of interaction going on between teacher and students. And again, not everyone is a good teacher.

It is of the School Nurse, hence why I keep stressing the point. It is better to be educated, even if one has a natural ability at public speaking, a formal education is necessary in order to best use those natural skills. No, but one has more knowledge than another if they have had training teaching.

There were several other points I read that I thought about addressing, but I wouldn't really be saying anything that hasn't already been said. Because of that, I thought I would just jump in on the most recent ones.

As for the issue of people claiming to be nurses when they aren't, yes it is wrong. But so is claiming to be a police officer, janitor, hobo, or anything else that you are not. However, how often is the person in the position of "school nurse" claiming to have that title, and how often is it other people just using it as a generic title for a specific set of job requirements?

That is fine, but this will most likely be one of my last posts in this thread. Well, it is also illegal. Doesn't matter how there using the title, they cannot, and I never really got that far to question the usage of the name other than the initial surprise.

 

[DrParasite]

Sigh, I understand that diabetes is not the only illness they can have, obviously. I'm simply stating, that when coming up to the patient, it is not likely that the EMT would automatically do a BLG, the Nurse with health history will most likely.

Sigh; I would argue that an EMT (if permitted by their state or medical director) or paramedic with that very same health history would do so within an equal timeframe as a school nurse.

 

[EMS_cavalier25]

Some actually. When was the last time you had a dental exam in the school nurses office beyond checking to see if you have all of your teeth and what kind of condition they were in.



Yes, but I did not say "nurse" I said "school nurse". I don't think there is any technical requirement for what kind of 'nurse' a school nurse must be. Can they be an LVN? CNA? If there is no steadfast rule I don't think it can be argued that they have to be one particular level of care provider. Just my two cents though. That one is open to interpretation.

I agree just as military combat "medics" are not all paramedics.

 

[Katy]

*cough*



Yes you are.

I am if they don't have proper training and certification, yes, if they were capable of completing further education, so be it.

They're more than capable, just not in your skew sense of reality... School nurses, are very BLS... Anything more and they call, what? Thats right paramedics...

No, they are not. They do not have the education, you keep bringing up the BLS and emergent side, when that is little compared to the rest of the job.

My little sister whos 10 has a quote... Never argue with a moron, they'll drag you down to their level and beat you with experience..

Not calling Happy a moron... But I don't feel that arguing our point will ever change her mind, she's set on her thought process.. no matter how askew it may be and we can't change it... Same goes for us, she couldn't change our minds either..

This ends my thoughts, because lets face it.... I do not want to become the subject of the sherrifs' undivided attention..

Good point.

 

[Katy]

I would argue that an EMT (if permitted by their state or medical director) or paramedic with that very same health history would do so within an equal timeframe as a nurse.

Agreed, but the whole point you all aren't getting is I am not stressing if they had access, because they don't. The Nurse is the only one who can, which is why it is important to note.

 

[DrParasite]

Happy, I'm gonna quote your original post, so you can see what you wrote in your first post:

Okay, so why when I am at a local camp or school function, and I look to see the First-Aid tent and clinic center. I start to talk to the person giving care, and come to find out they are an EMT-B! :glare: I'm sorry, but there is something very wrong with an EMT-B functioning as a School Nurse or Camp Nurse, I wouldn't even put a Paramedic in this job because they aren't a "nurse" first of all, and second, I'm all for EMS being techs and assistants in the clinics, but to be the primary care giver in a education setting ?h34r: What do you all think ? Any experience with this ?

you said an EMT or paramedic can't be the school or camp nurse, because they aren't "a nurse."

What I am saying is if you replaced the "nurse" with an EMT or Paramedic, making them the school EMT/Paramedic or camp EMT/Paramedic, giving them the same time spent in the office, same access to the history forms, than it doesn't matter if the person is a "certified school nurse" or not.

Going further and putting the paramedic in the nurse's position (since no one wants an EMT with their limited scope of practice and education) as the primary care giver in an education setting, your argument still holds no water. a paramedic can function similarly to a nurse, exceeding a nurse is some way and falling short of a nurse in others, and what they fall short on, can be made up with training (ditto an RN acting as a medic, they need to learn more to become an MICN)

Agreed, but the whole point you all aren't getting is I am not stressing if they had access, because they don't. The Nurse is the only one who can, which is why it is important to note.

so, back to my previous post, if the paramedic or EMT has access to these files, that means not only the nurse has access, which means you don't need to be a nurse to have access to the files, which pretty much eliminates the need to have the nurse (which is what you just said, in what was important that you note), and they can be replaced with a paramedic.

Lastly, and this is the last thing I will say in this thread, I have worked as an EMT at major events, worked alongside doctors, nurses and paramedics, and were able to manage all medical emergencies and injuries to the best of our abilities, and shipped out what we couldn't handle to the local ER. and oddly enough, we didn't have a patient history sheet filled out for every patient that walked into the stadium or who was admitted to the event. the majority of the requests for service involved band-aids, Tylenol, and minor injuries, with the minority of anything serious being treated and transported to the hospital for further evaluation.

 

[EMS_cavalier25]

You are again showing your inflexibility of thought. There is a guy at one of our senior apartment complexes that always takes his insulin and doesn't eat. We get dispatched and know from the address that it's going to be a hypoglycemic patient. Then we arrive and find a guy with an altered mental status, pale, cool, sweaty skin, tachycardia, and snoring respirations, and low blood glucose. We start an IV and give him D50 because we are clinically astute, and recognize his problem, not only because he's got low blood sugar.

One of these times we're going to go for him and he's going to have a head bleed, and you know what? We'll recognize that for what it is, too.

Have you had a good class in physical exam, or pathophysiology? When you get that education, it's super easy to recognize a problem when you see all the pieces to a puzzle fall into place in front of you. It has nothing to do with your history with the patient, and everything to do with clinical assessment.

EXACTLY

 

[CAOX3]

I for one agree, paramedics and nurses are not interchangible, and that isnt a slight against paramedics.

Yes you may have a similar skill set, but the educational foundation of a BSN far surpasses that of a paramedic.

I could take a couple of add on classes and treat the majority of injury an illness that I encounter daily. Would that make me a paramedic? No, see the correlation.

A paramedic could handle the majority of the duties of a school nurse, but that wont make them a nurse.

 

[nmasi]

24 pages is too much to browse through, if my post has already been made, please forgive.


When the school nurse goes "oh :censored::censored::censored::censored:!" who do they call? A Paramedic.


How do you know that the person with the "School Nurse" pin wasnt also an EMT-B? I know many nurses who are both RNs and Paramedics, not to mention the highly regarded Physicians that maintain their Paramedic cert just so they can come have fun with us.

As an offshore flight medic, I am routinely the primary medical provider with no other resources available.

 

[sdennislee]

I solved the puzzle. Change the sign on the office door from School Nurse to School Medical Person.

In the case of school nurses it's a position or title not a certification. Just because the EMT, Paramedic, etc... is filling the role as obviously requested by the school does not me they are trying to pass themselves off as a nurse.

Not sure why anyone other than a nurse would be offended by this activity.

Nothing illegal about filling a position of school nurse as long as you are not passing yourself off as a nurse.

Candy a suggestion in the future do not start threads with titles containing wanna be when addressing a group of senior professionals. It will almost always go bad for you. I think you would have had a more positive discussion had you started off with something like - Recently there seems to be an increase in the number of EMTs or Paramedics filling the role of school nurse, what is your opinion on this? or words to similar. As it was IMHO your opening remarks made you sound like a holier than tho valley girl.

 

[JPINFV]

When the school nurse goes "oh :censored::censored::censored::censored:!" who do they call? A Paramedic.

When the emergency physician says, "Oh shoot, this patient needs to be at a hospital with a cath lab?" Who do they call? Ok, are you going to claim to be superior to an emergency physician because you come in an ambulance?

Oh, this also doesn't touch on the fact that the people who are specialized in prehospital emergency care might be good at emergency care, but might not be at everything else. By that accord, the average paramedic should be able to take over a shift as a SNF RN, correct? How about a primary care physician because he calls 911 when one of his patients is having an emergency? So, how good are you at the chronic management of obesity, HTN, PAD, and type II diabetes, because when you get called because that patient has chest pain, you obviously must be able to handle managing everything else.

As an offshore flight medic, I am routinely the primary medical provider with no other resources available.

Is the average paramedic able to be plucked off an ambulance and thrown into an offshore flight medic position? I'm betting on "no."

 

[JPINFV]

In the case of school nurses it's a position or title not a certification. Just because the EMT, Paramedic, etc... is filling the role as obviously requested by the school does not me they are trying to pass themselves off as a nurse.

I'm baffled at how everyone seems to think that the training and education for one job is someone inherently linked to the training and education for another job that's only tangentially linked.

Candy a suggestion in the future do not start threads with titles containing wanna be when addressing a group of senior professionals.

Training: EMT-Basic

May I suggest that we not try to throw around terms like "senior professionals" quite so carelessly? The concept of "professional" means something, and given the attitude commonly taught and used in EMS, there are legitimate questions about whether EMS is a technical trade or an actual profession. A topic for a different thread however.

 

[IRIDEZX6R]

No, they are not. They do not have the education, you keep bringing up the BLS and emergent side, when that is little compared to the rest of the job.
.

What is the all holy "rest of the job" that you keep mentioning? What EXACTLY are you saying, that medics can't do that a school nurse can? "With the proper :deadhorse: certification" that is...

 

[sdennislee]

May I suggest that we not try to throw around terms like "senior professionals" quite so carelessly? The concept of "professional" means something, and given the attitude commonly taught and used in EMS, there are legitimate questions about whether EMS is a technical trade or an actual profession. A topic for a different thread however.

I don't throw it around carelessly. I see no reason why a paramedic would not be classified as a professional. GIven the number of years some of the paramedics in the forum have put in I see no reason why they wouldn't be considered senior professionals. What would you require of them to be classified as a professional?

 

[ffemt8978]

Okay...that's enough of this one. I'll get out the ban hammer tomorrow morning and start swinging away.

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