Pro-Transport (bay area)

[VentMedic]

The union I am referring to - not neccesarily a part or or advocate of - is NEMSA, which is technically a craft union/mutual aid association completely made up of EMS professionals who know the difference btw EMT, MEDIC, IFT, 911 contract, BLS, ALS, CCT, bs, etc. And happier employees, who have collectively organized to solve many issues that mgmt could not - supply requisition, ambulance repair, scheduling conflicts - can offer better pt care. EMS mgmt is inept as far as I have seen it, partly because the care and transportation of sick and injured individuals is a concept that can never mesh with profits.

Really? What do you think businesses such as hospitals and other transport agencies consider themselves if profit and reimbursement are not considered.

Thats great that there are associations interested in supporting issues in EMS. They get their funding from elsewhere, so what? Is it taxdollars? Is it grants? Donations? Who cares? The union does not take profits. It pays its full-time employees a living wage as it should, and it pays its lawyers their fees. All their financial information is available for anyone to see. I'm happy to pay for their services. Put somewhat dramatically: People who help people help people deserve to get paid for it. Deserve much more than a typical hedge fund manager.

You are too naive to even discuss finances with. Just a living wage for the managers of unions?

So what I have mentioned women, minorities and the community that attends the SF Pride Parade!? Personal issues!? WTF are you talking about!? Obviously I work in San Francisco, where a majority of my patients fall into one of those three categories. Yes I am concerned for them and yes I make a point of highlighting them because if you haven't figured out from my other post (pro-union), I am interetsed in helping people who many others forget about, i.e. women, minorities, GLBT community, and most importantly, workers. Isn't EMS about the non-judgemental assitance to those in need? Do you ask your pts about there sexual orientation before you treat them? You got the issues Ventmedic.

You made your post seem like working the Pride festival as disgusting work.

You also fail to know where the unions have stood where women are concerned in EMS and the FDs. In the early years, women could only find jobs at the NON union EMS agencies because the unions consisting of mostly male members were against women joining. The same for the FDs. The unions cited safety and a lot of other inferior crap to "marital" problems or whatever else. This went on for over 10 years.

As far as volunteering goes: check out SF Pride Medical Committee. All-volunteer medical staff there for the whole weekend. Skill levels from MD to First Responder, from as far away as British Colombia. There are volunteers who have been working there for 25 yrs - FOR FREE. All supplies are donated including ECG's, fluids and IVs, splinting gear, AED's, backboards, cushman carts that act as ambulances to get through the 250,000 people (biggest outdoor festival in CA). As far as other festivals go, check out RockMeds, and Mutual Aid, who are at every outdoor concert in CA DONATING time, skill, and supplies.

I already know some of the medical sponsor there which are CPMC, Kaiser and SFGH. CHW did a couple of events but they are not part of the regulars. MDs and RNs did donate their time. Some of the equipment like back boards and AEDs, was "loaned" not donated. The crews on the ambulances were paid. Those that did want to help out at the booths for free could do also but don't make it sound like anyone was forced to work for free. The companies that donated the supplies also got a decent tax benefit.

Again, what are you talking about? Better education? If the person has an RN education, go be a nurse. If the person has a BA in European Literature, go be a professor. If the person has just got there Medic license they will be promoted to Paramedic over any EMT, there is no dispute there. What is this dependence on education? Unless it is the education to move to a different job class within the company, what education are you talking about? CE's? Everyone does those already? How is 20yrs as a medic not count as education?

Just once I wish someone could equate education and EMS as going together. WTF are you talking about? RN is a different profession. BA in European literature? An RN would get a BSN which is something that goes with the nursing profession. Someone in EMS should get at least a two year degree in EMS. Right now it takes just a mere 1060 hours to be a Paramedic in California which is less than the clinical hours other professions need in their two year degree program. Look at the pathetic state scope of practice for EMS. It is a true embarrassment. It is not secret that the unions do not want a push for education because of all the "hardship" it would cause making the EMTs do all that studying when they can still be union members after just 110 hours of training. As well, those who advance their education may actually see how the unions actually work against them.

As long as the unions are as strong as they are and EMS providers continue to support them instead of a national organization for EMS, this profession will remain at a "tech" level and be considered just a job rather than a career. For a middle aged profession, it is now way behind any of the much younger healthcare professions that did not rely on unions.

If there is a medic who is old and lazy, there are steps that can happen before we start promoting those who have worked less. Everyone who posts about or complains about seniority always focuses on a "deadbeat" as you say. What about the hardworking Medic who just got married and whose wife is having a baby? In a non-seniority based model, mgmt decides who will get promoted, not the amount of time and dedication you put in. Vent, when your back goes out, and they start looking for brand new medics to take your shifts, I hope you can recall what you stated in this post.

So a married medic should get promoted before a single one? What does the number of kids he has have to do with him being a Paramedic? What about his contributions as a medic and striving to continue his education? By education I don't mean taking a weekend cert or an online CEU.

If a pt is put in danger or your partner is put in danger, yes then the union will not protect you solely because you pay dues. The union's interest is in job equality for all employees. Which is most easily attained when employees are not putting anyone in danger. That is not the point here. The point is to communicate w your partner before it gets to that level.

You just seem to miss the patient care issue. Do you also understand a responsibility to the certification or license you hold? That goes beyond the buddy buddy thing.

What issues in SF? Non-union companies like Protransport who pay their EE's garbage, who don't help them keep up on their skills and training, who will buy a new ambulance before they invest in an EE's future with the company and teach them how to drive it C3? My union steward is interested in helping me keep my job. That includes keeping up w all my certs, skills, CE's and all job-related disciplines to a minimum. Non-union does the disservice.

They may not be the best company but do you think someone with just 110 hours of training can do better? Even McDonalds offers more hours of training and expects more accountability from its employees. If one of their employees did something to endanger customers or stole property, do you think there wouldn't be an issue to where "talking to your co-worker" is advised?

There are also situations where the legal system and the state licensing board will hold you just as responsible as the other person because you failed to report an issue involving patient care.

I'm talking about unions at the local level. A good deal of organizing has to be done before we can even start talking about national politics. Thats for the teamsters and SEIU, not for NEMSA yet. First, we have to get people on board who fail to see that the reason they work 40 hours in the week and then get time and a half is because of gains taken by unionism. You do like the weekend don't you?

The reason people get time and a half after 40 is now due to the labor laws of this country. Any one can file a complaint with the Dept. of Labor and it doesn't take a union insulting you by saying the words are too big for union members to understand.

Many health care professionals are required to work some weekends in most fields. Do you thing the union can change that? No health care offered on weekends? No hospitals? No ambulances? Is this one of their campaign promises that you are falling for?

 

[Johnny Foley]

Really? What do you think businesses such as hospitals and other transport agencies consider themselves if profit and reimbursement are not considered.

The RN's, MD's, techs, assitants, etc. do not consider profit. The volly's out in the sticks don't either.

You are too naive to even discuss finances with. Just a living wage for the managers of unions?

If you have been soured on unions because of things that have happened to you in the past, fine. But to let misconceptions and stereotypes force you to ignore new developements such as NEMSA, and to ignore the possibility that unions can be improved upon, is the true naivete. Sure the Teamsters, SEIU, AFL-CIO all have had their issues, but NEMSA is young, and as stated before comprised of EMS workers. And as stated below and in other posts, it is the union locally that will help employees. Regardless of the dues paid. As long as there is a support system in place for when the company decides to use its muscle, my dues have been well spent.

You made your post seem like working the Pride festival as disgusting work.

No, you just missed the point. And its volunteering, not working.

You also fail to know where the unions have stood where women are concerned in EMS and the FDs. In the early years, women could only find jobs at the NON union EMS agencies because the unions consisting of mostly male members were against women joining. The same for the FDs. The unions cited safety and a lot of other inferior crap to "marital" problems or whatever else. This went on for over 10 years.

Thats the "early years". And even if that goes on now, I have not seen any of it. Speculating but, the IAFF probably acts the same as the PBA in that they do the bidding of its members who can be all about cronyism, traditionalism, and the 'old boys club'. That is not the way EMS works now, and with committed EE's and union stewards will not even deserve a mention in the future.

Those that did want to help out at the booths for free could do also but don't make it sound like anyone was forced to work for free. The companies that donated the supplies also got a decent tax benefit.

You missed the point again. The people who worked did so of their own volition. They VOLUNTEERED. That means that they wanted to give their time and effort for free. That basic idea - offering assistance that you can afford to give - is one of the key parts of EMS.

Just once I wish someone could equate education and EMS as going together. WTF are you talking about? RN is a different profession. BA in European literature? An RN would get a BSN which is something that goes with the nursing profession. Someone in EMS should get at least a two year degree in EMS. Right now it takes just a mere 1060 hours to be a Paramedic in California which is less than the clinical hours other professions need in their two year degree program. Look at the pathetic state scope of practice for EMS. It is a true embarrassment. It is not secret that the unions do not want a push for education because of all the "hardship" it would cause making the EMTs do all that studying when they can still be union members after just 110 hours of training. As well, those who advance their education may actually see how the unions actually work against them.

Show me one documented instance where a union discouraged a member from getting more educated within their career. Thats BS. Again what education are you talking about? You say study this and educate that, but what are you specifically talking about?

The argument was: does someone with more education deserve a promotion over someone with more experience. What education?! If an EMT goes Medic than he will get promoted. No union has a problem with that. If someone gets more education than a medic, than I guess that would make them a CCT-P. But what else are you referring to. You kind of allude to making EMS into a 2 year certificate program or AA or something. If thats what you mean, than OK, we can discuss that in 5 or 10 years after you invent it, but for now, a medic with more seniority will never get bypassed by a medic with less seniority and anything else, i.e. more "education", closer ties to mgmt, better looks, etc...

As long as the unions are as strong as they are and EMS providers continue to support them instead of a national organization for EMS, this profession will remain at a "tech" level and be considered just a job rather than a career. For a middle aged profession, it is now way behind any of the much younger healthcare professions that did not rely on unions.

You are nuts to think that EMS unions are now "strong" and that EMS providers support them. That is bonkers. As for whether or not this job is a career, ask anyone in SAR, Ski Patrol, Swift Water Rescue, Nat. Park Service, YOSAR (yosemite seach and rescue), FD, all the lifetime medics and EMT's with decent wages WON for them by UNION INVOLVEMENT.

If you are really for the boosting up of our profession you will realize that pro-company will only take you as far as the bottom line allows. And if you are looking for a National EMS association, stop dancing around it and just say you are looking for a national EMS union.

So a married medic should get promoted before a single one? What does the number of kids he has have to do with him being a Paramedic? What about his contributions as a medic and striving to continue his education? By education I don't mean taking a weekend cert or an online CEU.

WHAT DO YOU MEAN EDUCATION??

They may not be the best company but do you think someone with just 110 hours of training can do better? Even McDonalds offers more hours of training and expects more accountability from its employees. If one of their employees did something to endanger customers or stole property, do you think there wouldn't be an issue to where "talking to your co-worker" is advised?

No. As I said to the other poster, be a man.

There are also situations where the legal system and the state licensing board will hold you just as responsible as the other person because you failed to report an issue involving patient care.

Thats every situation. Better to have a solid relationship with your partner and not police him all the time. That is too much paranoia and just fosters distrust, which is one of the worst possible things to have between someone who literally has your life in their hands and vice versa.

The reason people get time and a half after 40 is now due to the labor laws of this country. Any one can file a complaint with the Dept. of Labor and it doesn't take a union insulting you by saying the words are too big for union members to understand.

The union gave you those labor laws. Don't forget.

Many health care professionals are required to work some weekends in most fields. Do you thing the union can change that? No health care offered on weekends? No hospitals? No ambulances? Is this one of their campaign promises that you are falling for?

[/QUOTE]

That was a joke. But right about the same time that the unions won your grandfather the 8hr day and overtime, they also won for him weekends. I think you need to get more education on US labor history

 

[JPINFV]

The RN's, MD's, techs, assitants, etc. do not consider profit. The volly's out in the sticks don't either.

Wow... just wow. You apparently have absolutely no clue about physician groups competing for hospital contracts, do you? There's a reason why a visit to the ER normally gets two bills. Only one of those is from the hospital.

Show me one documented instance where a union discouraged a member from getting more educated within their career. Thats BS. Again what education are you talking about? You say study this and educate that, but what are you specifically talking about?

Well. For starters, all other things being equal besides time and education, I'd argue that someone getting a raise due to seniority who only has a certificate over someone with, say, a BS in emergency medical care to be a good reason not to spend money on a degree. Oh, and yes. BS programs in EMS actually exist.

http://www.llu.edu/allied-health/sahp/emc/programinfo.page

That was a joke. But right about the same time that the unions won your grandfather the 8hr day and overtime, they also won for him weekends. I think you need to get more education on US labor history

Given the same amount of time in a work week, I'd rather have a 10 or 12 hour work day than an 8 hour work day even if I didn't get overtime for a 10 or 12 hour shift. Heck, with a 10 hour shift, I'd even be able to get an extra day off. Thanks unions for destroying employee choice in work day length!

 

[daedalus]

I may be biased, but I am pro-union. I grew up in a pro union house with my father and most of my family on his side working in the movie industry, where we received probably one of the best health care plans that exist because of the union. When I was 12, I had to undergo a major heart surgery, which was covered by our plan and we were sent to see some of the leading pediatric heart surgeons/cardiologists and I had my surgery in one of the top centers for pediatric heart surgery in the nation. Every year after that, I had to see the pediatric cardiologist which again, was covered with almost no co-pay. My family (not rich by ANY definition) received the support needed from the union and work, and I came out ok.

My work has a union, and I have go to say, I am far happier here than at my transport job in Los Angeles. Also, I have noticed quite the opposite in regards to education, pay, promotions, and employee morale. Educated people get promoted, and in our bargaining agreement, if you advance your education to an AS in Paramedic, you get a raise, and than a bigger raise after you complete a bachelors degree in any field. There is no us against them environment, and I have yet to see an instance of the union protecting scum bags who do not belong here. Compared to my non-union transport job, the employees here are far more willing to go the extra mile for our employer.

But than again, this is just my limited experience. Vent and JP are probably spot on in the bigger picture with most unions.

 

[VentMedic]

The RN's, MD's, techs, assitants, etc. do not consider profit. The volly's out in the sticks don't either.

LOL! Do you not even read the Bay area newspapers? Believe it or not but health care and the financial status of their companies are big issues there.

You missed the point again. The people who worked did so of their own volition. They VOLUNTEERED. That means that they wanted to give their time and effort for free. That basic idea - offering assistance that you can afford to give - is one of the key parts of EMS.

No I didn't. I clearly stated that the ambulances that were there were PAID. Anybody (EMTs) wanting to help out at the booths sponsored by the hospitals were volunteers along with the hospital's paid staff. The EMTs that did volunteer were wearing the hospital volunteer shirts and not that of their EMS agency. We also had some from the business offices volunteer. It was not just an "EMS" thing.

That is not the way EMS works now, and with committed EE's and union stewards will not even deserve a mention in the future.

If the issues are no longer present as they were way back when, why did you mention minorities and women? Since these are no longer issues for the PROFESSIONAL, a union is not necessary. It is those who lack education that require a union which I suppose the EMTs would qualify. However, how are the unions going to handle the new levels?

The union gave you those labor laws. Don't forget.

We do have a government in the U.S. which is for everybody and not just union members.

One must also remember that this was again for those who had very little to no education.

If you actually follow the history of unions you will find it is nothing to brag about especially with the corruption and blood shed they have caused throughout history. I would put much more credit to the legislative processes rather than the measures the unions took.

 

[VentMedic]

I may be biased, but I am pro-union. I grew up in a pro union house with my father and most of my family on his side working in the movie industry, where we received probably one of the best health care plans that exist because of the union.

I grew up in a union house also with AFL-CIO and Teamsters. However, my parents did give me a broad education about them and allowed me to make up my own mind when I entered college. I also got to see my father carrying a shotgun on a picket line at the coal mines. While his benefits give us a decent life, the disruption of life it also caused was pretty overwhelming for some families.

I've also seen some pretty ugly sights happening in downtown SF over the past few months. I also remember the union members who boycotted the displaced Katrina victims a few years ago in fear they would replace the locals for jobs. Sad statement for any organization and especially those that claim "equality".

 

[daedalus]

I grew up in a union house also with AFL-CIO and Teamsters. However, my parents did give me a broad education about them and allowed me to make up my own mind when I entered college. I also got to see my father carrying a shotgun on a picket line at the coal mines. While his benefits give us a decent life, the disruption of life it also caused was pretty overwhelming for some families.

I've also seen some pretty ugly sights happening in downtown SF over the past few months. I also remember the union members who boycotted the displaced Katrina victims a few years ago in fear they would replace the locals for jobs. Sad statement for any organization and especially those that claim "equality".

I do remember the long periods where my father would be out of work because of another union striking (for example, the writer's strike did put everyone else on de facto strike because there was no work for the other production crew members). So you take the good with the bad, I agree.

 

[Johnny Foley]

Wow... just wow. You apparently have absolutely no clue about physician groups competing for hospital contracts, do you? There's a reason why a visit to the ER normally gets two bills. Only one of those is from the hospital.

A physician on down to the lowly PCA will treat anyone who walks or is carried through the ER doors, regardless of their ability to pay, and will do so regardless of how the Hospital is fairing financially, unless that hospital closes due to city gov mismanagement, not union involvement.

Well. For starters, all other things being equal besides time and education, I'd argue that someone getting a raise due to seniority who only has a certificate over someone with, say, a BS in emergency medical care to be a good reason not to spend money on a degree. Oh, and yes. BS programs in EMS actually exist.

http://www.llu.edu/allied-health/sahp/emc/programinfo.page

I stand corrected on the EMS educational point, although the course description smacks of management. It doesn't state anywhere that it will train you to be a better field provider. Also, there is no mention of any field internship, (which I will no doubt get trashed for saying so) which can and will teach a student much more than any class. SFFD medic internships run min. 480hrs and on the avg go to 600 hrs or so. Nonetheless, within my union shop raises are given to everyone, not one or the other, based on seniority. You put in your time working, not reading, you will get rewarded. And again, neither I in any of my posts, or any other union stance, says that laziness is rewarded. When I speak of EMS workers universally, I am referrring to my experience that out of every 100 EMT's I have met, maybe 2 have not carried their load. I think that is much, much less than any other industry's status quo.

Given the same amount of time in a work week, I'd rather have a 10 or 12 hour work day than an 8 hour work day even if I didn't get overtime for a 10 or 12 hour shift. Heck, with a 10 hour shift, I'd even be able to get an extra day off. Thanks unions for destroying employee choice in work day length!

This is more naivete and hair-splitting. What kind of hours you get is determined by your CBA and your company. My CBA states that I can work 10's, 12's, or 24s. My union GOT me that choice. If you are looking to work the bare minimum - as you stated above - why not work for Protrans? A slacker who is anti-union? you are a Protrans wet dream. And aren't you the guy who posted that Mike Rowe quote how Americans have declared "war on work"?

 

[VentMedic]

I do remember the long periods where my father would be out of work because of another union striking (for example, the writer's strike did put everyone else on de facto strike because there was no work for the other production crew members). So you take the good with the bad, I agree.

I think the longest strike I remember was around 7 months. A lot of families were hurting during that time.

In CA, any strikes are a mere formality and I just love the money I make being flown out there with my RN pals. All expenses paid and wages that are fabulous. Almost all contract workers are guaranteed 5 - 10 days. Even if they strikers say the strike will only last 3 days, they are locked out for more. But again these are mere formalities.

However, the unprofessional display of employee behavior demonstrated by the SEIU in that city is an out right embarrassment. The fact that some of the ambulance employees wanted to honor that mess on a couple of their walkouts is even more absurd. If you are part of health care, you should not strike or threaten patients by telling them you are walking off the job and they can care for themselves.

This thread will be interesting reading for some of the health care managers in the Bay area. Although, I seriously doubt if all ambulance employees think like Johnny unless I'm giving them too much credit. But, it gives us something to talk about.

 

[JPINFV]

A physician on down to the lowly PCA will treat anyone who walks or is carried through the ER doors, regardless of their ability to pay, and will do so regardless of how the Hospital is fairing financially, unless that hospital closes due to city gov mismanagement, not union involvement.

To an extent, yes. However, assuming no immediately life threatening condition exists (including active labor. Hence no EMTALA issues), a physician is free to deny any patient care for what ever reason. A patient's ability to pay could very well affect admissions decisions or what tests are provided.

I stand corrected on the EMS educational point, although the course description smacks of management. It doesn't state anywhere that it will train you to be a better field provider. Also, there is no mention of any field internship, (which I will no doubt get trashed for saying so) which can and will teach a student much more than any class. SFFD medic internships run min. 480hrs and on the avg go to 600 hrs or so. Nonetheless, within my union shop raises are given to everyone, not one or the other, based on seniority. You put in your time working, not reading, you will get rewarded. And again, neither I in any of my posts, or any other union stance, says that laziness is rewarded. When I speak of EMS workers universally, I am referrring to my experience that out of every 100 EMT's I have met, maybe 2 have not carried their load. I think that is much, much less than any other industry's status quo.

Yea... a course on pathology is for management and/or can be effectively taught in the field. Everything known to man about physical diagnosis can easily be taught in the field. Sorry skippy, not everything can be taught in the field. Nor does everything in the class room have to do with management. Additionally, this isn't a paramedic training program. It's a degree in emergency medical care. It's like saying that because people getting a BS in biology doesn't have to spend time in a research lab that said degree is useless. Similarly, how much education does the average SFFD paramedic have? At LLU's BS in EMC program, 6/8 are paramedics with one non-medical (probably their ethics person) and 1 RRT. Additionally, 2 have doctorates, 4 have masters, and 2 have bacholors degrees. Are you going to tell me that the average SFFD paramedic has a masters degree?

Regardless, did you even try reading the class descriptions?

" Assignment includes interaction with cardiac patients and observation of diagnostic studies in the clinical setting. "

"Additional requirement of two autopsy viewings and written report."

"Students develop, implement, and evaluate project for in-depth experience in area of choice. Projects may include research, community projects, and/or education, management, or clinical affiliations. Students work under direct supervision of assigned faculty mentor. "
[emphasis added since you brought up community service]

...anyhow, I guess in union world paramedics don't have to understand "current issues related to infectious disease, with a special emphasis on principles of epidemiology and etiology of HIV/AIDS. Discussion of disease pathology and modes of transmission compared with hepatitis, tuberculosis, and influenza." Union members can't get infectious diseases.

why not work for Protrans? A slacker who is anti-union? you are a Protrans wet dream. And aren't you the guy who posted that Mike Rowe quote how Americans have declared "war on work"?

Hahahahahaha. Pfft... hahahahaha. Sorry skippy, you don't get into medical school by being a slacker. Hell, I don't care if the best ambulance company in the world offered me an awesome benefits package to come work for them. At this point in my life, my next 3 and a half years are essentially spoken for.

 

[Johnny Foley]

LOL! Do you not even read the Bay area newspapers? Believe it or not but health care and the financial status of their companies are big issues there.

Thats Kaiser (who is perpetually mismanaged in the Bay Area) and Sutter (who will look for the lowest bidder on everything from Transport contracts to affiliated Rehab facilities). SFGH will take anyone, no matter what. I can't tell you how many BS repatriation calls I have run, but here is the worst: 20 y/o female, MVC on highway, drivers side window was open and during the rollover her hand went out the window, was crushed, middle three fingers amputated, thumb and pinky crushed, pelvic fx, xport to SFGH cause it is our trauma center, three hours later after it is determined that she is a Kaiser pt gets XPORTED again, not to nearest Kaiser, but to 2nd nearest, not even in SF county, because Kaiser SF had no beds. So, back on the highway for the highway MVC victim, cause Kaiser wants their pt back. That is my point of how EMS and profits do not and cannot mesh. Kaiser mgmt and admin made that decision not MD's RN's and I almost refused to take her.

I admit that there are large financial intricacies at work in hospital financial mgmt that are way over my head. Still, I stand by the point that if an employee at any hospital turns away a pt, or even pauses in giving care while they ascertain insurance info, that person should be fired and taken to court. When you are bedside, profits are not an issue.

No I didn't. I clearly stated that the ambulances that were there were PAID. Anybody (EMTs) wanting to help out at the booths sponsored by the hospitals were volunteers along with the hospital's paid staff. The EMTs that did volunteer were wearing the hospital volunteer shirts and not that of their EMS agency. We also had some from the business offices volunteer. It was not just an "EMS" thing.

Please trust me on this point. There were ambulances at Pride, yes, but that was because the city requires any large gathering to have sufficient medical support. SUPPORT. The SF Pride Committe has no affiliation with any hospital, and the uniforms (T-Shirts) said: "Emergency Services" and "SF Pride". I will put it on and take a picture if you want. Anyone else you saw with hospital names on their shirts were not with the SF Pride Medical Committee who was, and have been, in charge of all medical relations at the parade for 25yrs. All patients were treated on scene by UNPAID VOLUNTEER MD's and RN's. The goal was to stabilize enough so they could return to the parade. If they were not stable, or deteriorating, we called AMR and SSFD to transport. Yes they were paid. We were not.

If the issues are no longer present as they were way back when, why did you mention minorities and women? Since these are no longer issues for the PROFESSIONAL, a union is not necessary. It is those who lack education that require a union which I suppose the EMTs would qualify. However, how are the unions going to handle the new levels?

The issues of UNIONS blocking minority and women involvement are no longer present, at least not in my union. The companies will still do so, but the unions will not.

We do have a government in the U.S. which is for everybody and not just union members.

One must also remember that this was again for those who had very little to no education.

If you actually follow the history of unions you will find it is nothing to brag about especially with the corruption and blood shed they have caused throughout history. I would put much more credit to the legislative processes rather than the measures the unions took.

You and your education again. The union will stand for anyone regardless of education level, and at any point in their educational careers. You seem to think that a guy with a diploma should be treated like a prince. At what point do we begin to treat him like that? I know of at least two ER MD's that work for Kaiser who got their degrees ONLINE! "This doesn't look like the picture...")

And the majority of blood shed in union related conflict was workers' blood. And you just lost all credibility by saying that yoiu would put more credibility to legislative processes than what the union gained. Who do you think leaned on their representatives to get thos gains? Why are political gains always creditted to the pols who do what they are told? And you trust pols more than union stewards who do the same job as you? You're BS-ing me now right?

Again,

 

[JPINFV]

Thats Kaiser (who is perpetually mismanaged in the Bay Area) and Sutter (who will look for the lowest bidder on everything from Transport contracts to affiliated Rehab facilities). SFGH will take anyone, no matter what. I can't tell you how many BS repatriation calls I have run, but here is the worst: 20 y/o female, MVC on highway, drivers side window was open and during the rollover her hand went out the window, was crushed, middle three fingers amputated, thumb and pinky crushed, pelvic fx, xport to SFGH cause it is our trauma center, three hours later after it is determined that she is a Kaiser pt gets XPORTED again, not to nearest Kaiser, but to 2nd nearest, not even in SF county, because Kaiser SF had no beds. So, back on the highway for the highway MVC victim, cause Kaiser wants their pt back. That is my point of how EMS and profits do not and cannot mesh. Kaiser mgmt and admin made that decision not MD's RN's and I almost refused to take her.

Refused to take her on what grounds? If she's being transported from a trauma center then either that trauma center lacks the ability to care for the patient or the patient is stable enough to be transfered. If the patient is unstable, then the hospital is going to have some issues when an EMTALA complaint is made. Can you prove that her care was compromised by being transported?

I know of at least two ER MD's that work for Kaiser who got their degrees ONLINE!

Considering that California is one of the most stringent states when it comes to medical licensing (fun tidbit: several other states defers to California's list of approved foreign medical schools for determining which applicants to certify), I can tell you that, without question, there are no online medical schools. Now, sure, many schools audio or videotape their lectures and post them online which allows students to determine how they study best, but there are no online medical schools.

 

[VentMedic]

You and your education again. The union will stand for anyone regardless of education level, and at any point in their educational careers. You seem to think that a guy with a diploma should be treated like a prince. At what point do we begin to treat him like that? I know of at least two ER MD's that work for Kaiser who got their degrees ONLINE! "This doesn't look like the picture...")

But does the unions stand for education? No.

Where have the unions been? I have not seen any union members at the National Educators meetings. The only ones that I have seen have been opposed to any increase in education because of the incredible hardships even these new levels might present. Imagine the thought of an EMT spending over 200 hours in training!! How horrible!! Why that is almost as much as the CA Paramedic!

And, it looks like someone was pulling your leg. Of course doctors in their earlier days of college can get online classes. Almost every college offers them for at least the general education classes. As well, a few professors do videotape their lectures. But, that is by no means a "mail order" type of class.

I guess it is easy to see why YOU would need a union.

And the majority of blood shed in union related conflict was workers' blood. And you just lost all credibility by saying that yoiu would put more credibility to legislative processes than what the union gained. Who do you think leaned on their representatives to get thos gains? Why are political gains always creditted to the pols who do what they are told? And you trust pols more than union stewards who do the same job as you? You're BS-ing me now right?

Again,

Read your history and find out at whose hands those workers died by.

Oops! I forgot. That might fall under "education" and we wouldn't ever want to demand that of you.

 

[VentMedic]

Thats Kaiser (who is perpetually mismanaged in the Bay Area) and Sutter (who will look for the lowest bidder on everything from Transport contracts to affiliated Rehab facilities). SFGH will take anyone, no matter what. I can't tell you how many BS repatriation calls I have run, but here is the worst: 20 y/o female, MVC on highway, drivers side window was open and during the rollover her hand went out the window, was crushed, middle three fingers amputated, thumb and pinky crushed, pelvic fx, xport to SFGH cause it is our trauma center, three hours later after it is determined that she is a Kaiser pt gets XPORTED again, not to nearest Kaiser, but to 2nd nearest, not even in SF county, because Kaiser SF had no beds. So, back on the highway for the highway MVC victim, cause Kaiser wants their pt back. That is my point of how EMS and profits do not and cannot mesh. Kaiser mgmt and admin made that decision not MD's RN's and I almost refused to take her.

Wow! You know very little about the hospitals and trauma in SF. But then, if you are with Protransport, you may not be involved with trauma patients and this is just heresay for you.

If the patient is at a trauma center and can be safely moved to another facility, for either specialty or insurance reasons, they will be transported.

SFGH is the trauma center. Other facilities will take Kaiser patients until a bed opens up. If the patient is stable for transfer, a CCT with an RN is used to get the patient back to Kaiser.

three fingers amputated, thumb and pinky crushed,

If the patient has damage that requires microsurgery they will be transported to Davies Hospital, Buncke group of physicians, if the patient does not require interventions for more serious injury at SFGH.

SFGH does not have a stat cath lab but CHW St. Mary's, Kaiser-SF and CPMC-Pacific Campus or UCSF Parnassus does. Thus, a STEMI should go to one

This is in the best interest of the patient. Too bad if it inconveniences you.

 

[Johnny Foley]

Yea... a course on pathology is for management and/or can be effectively taught in the field. Everything known to man about physical diagnosis can easily be taught in the field. Sorry skippy, not everything can be taught in the field. Nor does everything in the class room have to do with management. Additionally, this isn't a paramedic training program. It's a degree in emergency medical care. It's like saying that because people getting a BS in biology doesn't have to spend time in a research lab that said degree is useless. Similarly, how much education does the average SFFD paramedic have? At LLU's BS in EMC program, 6/8 are paramedics with one non-medical (probably their ethics person) and 1 RRT. Additionally, 2 have doctorates, 4 have masters, and 2 have bacholors degrees. Are you going to tell me that the average SFFD paramedic has a masters degree?

Regardless, did you even try reading the class descriptions?

" Assignment includes interaction with cardiac patients and observation of diagnostic studies in the clinical setting. "

"Additional requirement of two autopsy viewings and written report."

"Students develop, implement, and evaluate project for in-depth experience in area of choice. Projects may include research, community projects, and/or education, management, or clinical affiliations. Students work under direct supervision of assigned faculty mentor. "
[emphasis added since you brought up community service]

...anyhow, I guess in union world paramedics don't have to understand "current issues related to infectious disease, with a special emphasis on principles of epidemiology and etiology of HIV/AIDS. Discussion of disease pathology and modes of transmission compared with hepatitis, tuberculosis, and influenza." Union members can't get infectious diseases.

Not only would I rather have an SFFD medic work on me when I was going into arrest than someone with a EMC degree from Loma Linda, I would rather have a drink with them too. Do you understand the humor in the fact that you are attending a christian school while quoting that you are going to take special classes on etiology of HIV/AIDS? I guarantee that sometime during that class your instructor will say that HIV is transmitted by homosexuals.

And, I bet anything I know more than you about H1N1. My Paramedic CES coordinator gave a free class...


And, again, you will eventually wise up to the fact that things learned in the field are far superior to things learned in the class. (Please refer to my post above about the Kaiser ER docs who got their degrees online). Granted, things learned in the class can be practiced and implemented in the field. But they need to be practiced in the field under the closeful watch of a preceptor. Did you ever notice the difference between a CPR dummy and a real person? The real person's ribcage can crack when you do CPR correctly. EMS is a craft; thats why they are called interns, which is another term for apprentice.

Hahahahahaha. Pfft... hahahahaha. Sorry skippy, you don't get into medical school by being a slacker. Hell, I don't care if the best ambulance company in the world offered me an awesome benefits package to come work for them. At this point in my life, my next 3 and a half years are essentially spoken for.

To clarify, everyone I know who is in Medical School, or planning to go, says Pre-Med; its connotaions are that of becoming a doctor. I think you are in EMC school, right?

 

[JPINFV]

Not only would I rather have an SFFD medic work on me when I was going into arrest than someone with a EMC degree from Loma Linda, I would rather have a drink with them too. Do you understand the humor in the fact that you are attending a christian school while quoting that you are going to take special classes on etiology of HIV/AIDS? I guarantee that sometime during that class your instructor will say that HIV is transmitted by homosexuals.

Where did I say that I have now, nor ever attended LLU? Oh, and apparently schools affiliated with religions don't teach about STDs? I dare you to go on to Student Doctor Network and make a thread asking if LLU, New York Medical College, Georgetown, Loyola, Creighton, and St. Louis University medical schools teach that STDs are God's gifts to homosexuals. All of those schools, in one manor or another, are affiliated with Christianity (respectively, 7th Day Adventist, local Catholic Diocese, and the last four are all Jesuit schools).

And, again, you will eventually wise up to the fact that things learned in the field are far superior to things learned in the class. (Please refer to my post above about the Kaiser ER docs who got their degrees online). Granted, things learned in the class can be practiced and implemented in the field. But they need to be practiced in the field under the closeful watch of a preceptor. Did you ever notice the difference between a CPR dummy and a real person? The real person's ribcage can crack when you do CPR correctly. EMS is a craft; thats why they are called interns, which is another term for apprentice.

Do you even know what the requirments for a medical degree are? I guarantee you that the state of California will not issue medical degrees to applicants who completed online medical school. Outside of medical school, I don't give a damn where someone when for some other degree when applying for a medical license. Should people be denied an EMT-I certification in California because they got an AA in humanities online?

To clarify, everyone I know who is in Medical School, or planning to go, says Pre-Med; its connotaions are that of becoming a doctor. I think you are in EMC school, right?

No. I am a first year medical student at Western University of Health Sciences in Pomona.

 

[Johnny Foley]

Wow! You know very little about the hospitals and trauma in SF. But then, if you are with Protransport, you may not be involved with trauma patients and this is just heresay for you.

I don't work for Pro, I just organize for them.

If the patient is at a trauma center and can be safely moved to another facility, for either specialty or insurance reasons, they will be transported.

SFGH is the trauma center. Other facilities will take Kaiser patients until a bed opens up. If the patient is stable for transfer, a CCT with an RN is used to get the patient back to Kaiser.



If the patient has damage that requires microsurgery they will be transported to Davies Hospital, Buncke group of physicians, if the patient does not require interventions for more serious injury at SFGH.

The pt would go to davies if microsurgery were indicated, and as the fingers were along the side of 101 somewhere, davies was passed on by the ER doc at SFGH. The pt had no cardiac issues, so a STEMI center was not indicated either.

This is in the best interest of the patient. Too bad if it inconveniences you.

And again Ventmedic, you missed the point entirely. A transport SFGH to Kaiser south city doesn't inconvenience me in the least; rather it inconveniences the girl who was JUST IN AN MVC ON THE HIGHWAY! Kaiser decides that they want their patient back so that all interventions and surgeries performed can be billed by Kaiser, so this poor girl who is sobbing because she is 20 y/o and about to be w/o 5 fingers on her left hand, is going for a ride in the back of an ambulance on the HIGHWAY - which if you have ever ridden in at all, you know is not a smooth ride, especially in SF - cause she is a Kaiser pt. PLUS - no lie - Kaiser said to leave on the c-collar, "they would clear her C-spine at their facility". Do you know how much it sucks being in a collar? She was stable. Transport was technically indicated, but sure as S**T pretty inconvenient for her. Thats why I almost refused it.

 

[JPINFV]

I curious as to how your union would have protected you from being terminated for refusing a call.

 

[daedalus]

And, again, you will eventually wise up to the fact that things learned in the field are far superior to things learned in the class. (Please refer to my post above about the Kaiser ER docs who got their degrees online). Granted, things learned in the class can be practiced and implemented in the field. But they need to be practiced in the field under the closeful watch of a preceptor. Did you ever notice the difference between a CPR dummy and a real person? The real person's ribcage can crack when you do CPR correctly. EMS is a craft; thats why they are called interns, which is another term for apprentice.

1. You cannot obtain a medical degree and practice in the state of california with an "online medical degree". As JP has already told you. In fact, there are no online medical degrees. You must attend a accredited osteopathic or allopathic US medical school, or a foreign medical school and apply for a US residency. You must also have a minimum of a year of biological science, a year of inorganic chemistry, and a year of organic chemistry from an accredited college or university prior to gaining entry to a California medical school, and prior to be licensed in California.

2. Classroom learning is essential to learning the basic medical sciences which establish a foundation to practice medicine. You are absolutely wrong with your assumptions. I will take a Loma Linda graduate who is up on the latest cardiopulmonary science and research any day if I were to go into arrest.

 

[daedalus]

And again Ventmedic, you missed the point entirely. A transport SFGH to Kaiser south city doesn't inconvenience me in the least; rather it inconveniences the girl who was JUST IN AN MVC ON THE HIGHWAY! Kaiser decides that they want their patient back so that all interventions and surgeries performed can be billed by Kaiser, so this poor girl who is sobbing because she is 20 y/o and about to be w/o 5 fingers on her left hand, is going for a ride in the back of an ambulance on the HIGHWAY - which if you have ever ridden in at all, you know is not a smooth ride, especially in SF - cause she is a Kaiser pt. PLUS - no lie - Kaiser said to leave on the c-collar, "they would clear her C-spine at their facility". Do you know how much it sucks being in a collar? She was stable. Transport was technically indicated, but sure as S**T pretty inconvenient for her. Thats why I almost refused it.

You do not understand the economics of health care. This much is painfully obvious. There are many reasons that the patient was transported to kaiser, and most of those reasons benefit the patient herself.