Police Based Paramedics

thuisman said:
I don't think that's how it works, I'm sure they take care of the threat before medical treatment, plus there are many other members of the team to continue. The SWAT medic doesn't carry any big bagsor anything, they have a small backpack and pockets on their vests, kind of like pararescue jumpers, there's usually an EMS unit staging nearby, but obviously if he's critically shot, seconds count to get treatment
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I know how they work, I'm allowed to be "one of them for the state". SWAT medics go in with them. Otherwise an ambulance can just sit in the cold zone, and just wait... The point is to clear a place, stop do quick bls things then moving on but I'm yet to find a place that does it like NYS does...
 
SplintedTheWrongLeg said:
Here's a CHP flight medic. Maryland State Police also has State Trooper Flight Medics.
Pretty cool gig. I'd probably do it if Missouri used police flight Medics.
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There is a CHP flight medic on this site also
 
thuisman said:
In the county i live in, the sheriffs department has police paramedic units, (1 of only 2 depts in MI) it seems to work very well and I'm interested in working there in the future, I'm a paramedic student right now and they just recently started letting medic students ride along with them, so I did one and you really learn the more tactical side of things, like situational awareness. And in that county, police (even not medically trained) respond to ALL medicals. Which saved a couple paramedics lives when the guy came running at them with a knife. The county I work in, you only see police if dispatcher sees the need for them.

There are also multiple public safety depts around me that are police cross trained as firefighters, but only medically licensed to the MFR level (even though a lot of them are medics/EMT's)... I'd love to do something like that after working a few years as a medic
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I personally think this is a great direction for EMS to move towards. It creates more opportunities for training and employment and proves how versatile the role of a paramedic can be. Many people wouldn't think twice about a fire/medic or a flight medic so I don't understand why talking about having someone trained to enforce laws but also be an ALS level first responder for incidents makes people so uncomfortable. Obviously you wouldn't force this role on every provider. It would be more of a higher tier position for exceptional paramedics who are interested to strive for thus giving addition room for growth and advancement within the field. I'm currently finishing my AAS in Emergency Medicine and fully intend to get on with some sort of tactical EMS team.
 
Drwlemt said:
I personally think this is a great direction for EMS to move towards. It creates more opportunities for training and employment and proves how versatile the role of a paramedic can be. Many people wouldn't think twice about a fire/medic or a flight medic so I don't understand why talking about having someone trained to enforce laws but also be an ALS level first responder for incidents makes people so uncomfortable. Obviously you wouldn't force this role on every provider. It would be more of a higher tier position for exceptional paramedics who are interested to strive for thus giving addition room for growth and advancement within the field. I'm currently finishing my AAS in Emergency Medicine and fully intend to get on with some sort of tactical EMS team.
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Would you tell the person that has the same power to arrest you as to save you, your overdosed on an illegal drug? If your under 21, would you say your drunk and fell now need an ambulance?? As well as i previously stated, let EMT do EMT things, let LE do LE things, **This was said to me by AKflight**. It's unnecessary risks.
 
NysEms2117 said:
Would you tell the person that has the same power to arrest you as to save you, your overdosed on an illegal drug? If your under 21, would you say your drunk and fell now need an ambulance?? As well as i previously stated, let EMT do EMT things, let LE do LE things, **This was said to me by AKflight**. It's unnecessary risks.
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While we're at it why don't we hire one person to drive, one person to control airway, one person to navigate, another individual to chart etc.... let EMT do EMT things, let LE do LE things seems more like, I don't want extra responsibilities and I don't want other individuals to get ahead of me because they pursued additional education. The police where I live already carry narcan. When they respond to an overdose they have protocol's in place, I believe you are safe from any charges related to drug use/paraphilia for that encounter if you called 911 (not 100% on this). If you're unwilling or unable to give a thorough history that does not completely stop care and many people will not tell paramedics everything either due to the uniform. I'm actually kind of surprised I was just looking at your thread about advancing EMS and this in my opinion is a very obvious area in which EMS can expand.
 
Drwlemt said:
I personally think this is a great direction for EMS to move towards. It creates more opportunities for training and employment and proves how versatile the role of a paramedic can be. Many people wouldn't think twice about a fire/medic or a flight medic so I don't understand why talking about having someone trained to enforce laws but also be an ALS level first responder for incidents makes people so uncomfortable. Obviously you wouldn't force this role on every provider. It would be more of a higher tier position for exceptional paramedics who are interested to strive for thus giving addition room for growth and advancement within the field. I'm currently finishing my AAS in Emergency Medicine and fully intend to get on with some sort of tactical EMS team.
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100% agree. Especially when I'm on the ambulance, always feel safer when there's an officer present, for protection purposes, and legal (documentation) purposes.
 
NysEms2117 said:
Would you tell the person that has the same power to arrest you as to save you, your overdosed on an illegal drug? If your under 21, would you say your drunk and fell now need an ambulance?? As well as i previously stated, let EMT do EMT things, let LE do LE things, **This was said to me by AKflight**. It's unnecessary risks.
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Al least around here, police respond to all EMS calls that involve drugs or alcohol. And we "stage" for them. So if officer there to first responding they can provide ALS care if needed
 
Drwlemt said:
While we're at it why don't we hire one person to drive, one person to control airway, one person to navigate, another individual to chart etc.... let EMT do EMT things, let LE do LE things seems more like, I don't want extra responsibilities and I don't want other individuals to get ahead of me because they pursued additional education.
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CCT rigs have that, i work as an assistant to my CC-P partner, while an EMR drives. EMS is my side job. Law Enforcement is my first job. I will tell you from experience LE needs to focus on LE. LE needs to make sure EMS is SAFE. Making sure the trained professionals in Pre Hospital Healthcare are safe, and can do their job right should be the priority on those calls. From experience on a tactical team, it is very difficult to even take care of all of your responsibilities, making sure you and your team gets out injury free. I have the opportunity to be a "tactical medic" which i see as utterly useless unless you 1. get extra people on the team to branch off and provide security for you. 2. You as the TM get to carry a firearm.
The same thing for EMS... They need to focus on Patient care and knowing you have somebody watching your back to make sure you are safe makes that quite a bit easier. Unless you want to go blindly running into a hot scene, then feel free :)
 
thuisman said:
I don't think that's how it works, I'm sure they take care of the threat before medical treatment, plus there are many other members of the team to continue. The SWAT medic doesn't carry any big bagsor anything, they have a small backpack and pockets on their vests, kind of like pararescue jumpers, there's usually an EMS unit staging nearby, but obviously if he's critically shot, seconds count to get treatment
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Best medicine in a firefight is the end the threat. If you stop to treat the whole team has to stop or at least you plus one person to provide lethal cover for you.


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NysEms2117 said:
CCT rigs have that, i work as an assistant to my CC-P partner, while an EMR drives. EMS is my side job. Law Enforcement is my first job. I will tell you from experience LE needs to focus on LE. LE needs to make sure EMS is SAFE. Making sure the trained professionals in Pre Hospital Healthcare are safe, and can do their job right should be the priority on those calls. From experience on a tactical team, it is very difficult to even take care of all of your responsibilities, making sure you and your team gets out injury free. I have the opportunity to be a "tactical medic" which i see as utterly useless unless you 1. get extra people on the team to branch off and provide security for you. 2. You as the TM get to carry a firearm.
The same thing for EMS... They need to focus on Patient care and knowing you have somebody watching your back to make sure you are safe makes that quite a bit easier. Unless you want to go blindly running into a hot scene, then feel free :)
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I see where you're coming from but it's wrong. Having served in an infantry battalion with the Marine corps I can assure you that people can operate within a tactical environment while providing emergency medical care. We had Navy Corpsmen, Army has combat medics. I personally witnessed both in action and I can vouch that they are an extremely valuable asset. A police officer licensed as a paramedic Would most likely operate as an LEO on most calls that He/she is dispatched too but have the ability to proved immediate care in cases such as trauma, penetrating wounds, blood loss. You said it yourself it is pointless to have a TM who isn't armed and that is not what I'm suggesting at all. A TM should be a fully functional member of the team only with a trauma bag. Real life is a lot different then a Hollywood movie buddy and I think that's the perspective you are looking at this from.
 
Sorry, I think if LEO wants to work as a paramedic, that should be their focus. Quit the police force and get on a truck. It's an entirely separate world. The same with fire, physicians, aircraft pilots and train conductors. Let the guys fulfill their PRIMARY job without adding more distractors.

They don't need to be a paramedic to render "immediate care in cases such as trauma, penetrating wounds, blood loss."

They should carry a blow out kit and be trained in CPR. Then let the paramedics do their job.
 
Drwlemt said:
I see where you're coming from but it's wrong. Having served in an infantry battalion with the Marine corps I can assure you that people can operate within a tactical environment while providing emergency medical care. We had Navy Corpsmen, Army has combat medics. I personally witnessed both in action and I can vouch that they are an extremely valuable asset. A police officer licensed as a paramedic Would most likely operate as an LEO on most calls that He/she is dispatched too but have the ability to proved immediate care in cases such as trauma, penetrating wounds, blood loss. You said it yourself it is pointless to have a TM who isn't armed and that is not what I'm suggesting at all. A TM should be a fully functional member of the team only with a trauma bag. Real life is a lot different then a Hollywood movie buddy and I think that's the perspective you are looking at this from.
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I'm not going to speak for the military side because I never served. But I will tell you, the way your looking at things, while your stateside will get you killed or hurt. The military is 110% different then law enforcement. Different ROE, different circumstances, different training, different backup, different support. Also may I ask what's the first thing a corpsman does or first thing an army CB medic does? Their unit sets a perimeter and they drag the patient to where they won't further get shot. They don't blindly aimlessly run and treat somebody in the middle of an open road. I don't operate in Hollywood lifestyle. I operate in, I want to go home to my fiancé and not be a hero lifestyle. Which sounds like the world your operating in. Robb said it prior too, you'll stop the whole team, to treat 1 person. NYS does it how I think it should be done if at all, and I still refuse to do it. The point of ems is quick pre hospice care. All of the patients a tactical medic would see need to be at a MINIMUM evaluated by definitive care personnel. By doing your tactical medicine, your delaying that.
 
DEmedic said:
Sorry, I think if LEO wants to work as a paramedic, that should be their focus. Quit the police force and get on a truck. It's an entirely separate world. The same with fire, physicians, aircraft pilots and train conductors. Let the guys fulfill their PRIMARY job without adding more distractors.

They don't need to be a paramedic to render "immediate care in cases such as trauma, penetrating wounds, blood loss."

They should carry a blow out kit and be trained in CPR. Then let the paramedics do their job.
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This times a million. So does this mean I can go put myself through a police academy and be a half cop when I so choose?

My point being much like the others on here. While there may be police based paramedics and albeit good ones, I am willing to bet they're the exception, not the rule. @Drwlemt define what type of "ALS care" is so life saving that a cop should render this prior to an ALS paramedic ambulance arriving at a scene. If it is anything along the lines of most ALS fire engines, I'm going to go ahead and say it's every bit as proven to provide better outcomes than they are...it's not; heck, many and most paramedics on here can agree much of what we do as sole ALS paramedics is.

Long story short the best cops enforce the law, the best firefighters fight fires, and the best medical providers provide medicine. That is all.
 
It's really disappointing to see the general mindset on here about this subject but can't say I'm surprised. Working in EMS about 80% of the people I've worked with have had the mindset of doing the absolute minimum and are completely fine with that. It's really not surprising that EMS in this country is looked down on. No matter how badly people on here don't want it to happen police based medics and tactical medicine are being adopted by departments around the country. To name a few look at MSP, BORSTAR, FBI HRT, the ATF has a program, DC ERT, and I've seen quite a few posts on here about local departments utilizing tactical medics most being either from California, Florida, and Texas. I'll go back to what I said earlier this wouldn't be a job for everyone. If you want to just be a paramedic then stay doing that.
 
Drwlemt said:
It's really disappointing to see the general mindset on here about this subject but can't say I'm surprised. Working in EMS about 80% of the people I've worked with have had the mindset of doing the absolute minimum and are completely fine with that. It's really not surprising that EMS in this country is looked down on. No matter how badly people on here don't want it to happen police based medics and tactical medicine are being adopted by departments around the country. To name a few look at MSP, BORSTAR, FBI HRT, the ATF has a program, DC ERT, and I've seen quite a few posts on here about local departments utilizing tactical medics most being either from California, Florida, and Texas. I'll go back to what I said earlier this wouldn't be a job for everyone. If you want to just be a paramedic then stay doing that.
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But can you at least respect the opinions of those who collectively have "just been a paramedic" for who knows how many years?

I think you're missing the mark here. I don't think anyone said it isn't happening or that it's a terrible idea. Clearly from posts referencing BORSTAR, MSP, etc. there are some pretty well respected dual role LE/ EMS deployments; many of them people such as myself were at one time interested in.

At least what I was talking about was police based ground paramedicine as in on any, and/ or all 911 calls. That seems like a bit much, again, citing the fact that prehospital medicine alone at best isn't embedded with proven data to support favorable outcomes with treatments rendered with the exception of only a few, mainly BLS, skills.

I can respect I am not going to change your opinion, cool, but to say it's already happening by pointing out agencies many of us are already well aware of, and some of whom may even have had firsthand experience with, is well, a bit arrogant.

As far as doing the bare minimum, clearly you haven't read many of the respected forum members posts on here. Most of them hardly do the "bare minimum", which is why they're respected.
 
I have had a few paramedic partners that also worked as full time police officers. Everyone of them is a cop before they are a medic. They feel everyone is lying to them and they look down on most pts.. They were my least favorite medics to work with.
 
cruiseforever said:
I have had a few paramedic partners that also worked as full time police officers. Everyone of them is a cop before they are a medic. They feel everyone is lying to them and they look down on most pts.. They were my least favorite medics to work with.
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Not to derail this thread, but digging the new profile pic @cruiseforever, carry on gents...
 
I'm showing up a little late to this party but I'll give my two scene for whatever it's worth.

Where I work, everyone has distinct roles. I provide safety to patients and anyone who needs it. I'm trained in higher levels of restraining patients if needed. I am NOT a nurse or doctor or EMT. They are trained medically to provide care to patients who are experiencing a medical problem and that's how the system works. If I was to jump into a medical situation the nurse or doctor would look at me and tell me to step back. If a situation was escalating and the situation became unsafe, I would look at the nurse or doctor and wonder why they are trying to do my job. My point is everyone has a job to do, everyone is specifically trained and we stick to our responsibilities
 
Fry14MN said:
I'm showing up a little late to this party but I'll give my two scene for whatever it's worth.

Where I work, everyone has distinct roles. I provide safety to patients and anyone who needs it. I'm trained in higher levels of restraining patients if needed. I am NOT a nurse or doctor or EMT. They are trained medically to provide care to patients who are experiencing a medical problem and that's how the system works. If I was to jump into a medical situation the nurse or doctor would look at me and tell me to step back. If a situation was escalating and the situation became unsafe, I would look at the nurse or doctor and wonder why they are trying to do my job. My point is everyone has a job to do, everyone is specifically trained and we stick to our responsibilities
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Please don't take this the wrong way because this is going to sound harsher than it really is, but why are you on here then? Did I miss something in your posting history? Are you going to take a EMT class or are you on here just to "pick up" a thing or two? Anyway I'm more than happy that you're on here.
 
CALEMT said:
Please don't take this the wrong way because this is going to sound harsher than it really is, but why are you on here then? Did I miss something in your posting history? Are you going to take a EMT class or are you on here just to "pick up" a thing or two? Anyway I'm more than happy that you're on here.
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It's not harsh, it's a valid question. I'm in school right now for EMS.
 
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