patients with carry permit

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nyfiremen47

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good evening everyone.

Looking for some information. I cant find much online about this topic for new york state. Say you have a patient that fell from a tree and they have a carry permit for firearms. and you find that they have a firearm on them. but no family is around to secure the firearm. and police have an extended ETA and you do not have the time to wait what are your choices to do? can you ask them if you can secure the fire arm in a lockbox in the ambulance and meet police at the hospital to secure it?
but do you then take a risk of being in possession of a fire arm? do you contact 911 and advise them of your situation and have them dispatch police to the hospital and let the patient carry the fire arm with them ? or if you have the extra manpower can you advise the patient that ems is going to have a hand on the holster until we arrive at the hospital so proper people can secure the firearm?

this is something that my dept has never had to think about. any help or input would be great

Thank you
 
nyfiremen47 said:
good evening everyone.

Looking for some information. I cant find much online about this topic for new york state. Say you have a patient that fell from a tree and they have a carry permit for firearms. and you find that they have a firearm on them. but no family is around to secure the firearm. and police have an extended ETA and you do not have the time to wait what are your choices to do? can you ask them if you can secure the fire arm in a lockbox in the ambulance and meet police at the hospital to secure it?
but do you then take a risk of being in possession of a fire arm? do you contact 911 and advise them of your situation and have them dispatch police to the hospital and let the patient carry the fire arm with them ? or if you have the extra manpower can you advise the patient that ems is going to have a hand on the holster until we arrive at the hospital so proper people can secure the firearm?

this is something that my dept has never had to think about. any help or input would be great

Thank you
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That last option is very creepy. Please don’t call 911. Lock it up in a compartment on the ambulance and let security or PD at the hospital handle it. Keep it in the holster while it is in the compartment to help protect the trigger.
 
I cant find laws in new york about removing a firearm off somebody if you are not a permit holder.
 
nyfiremen47 said:
I cant find laws in new york about removing a firearm off somebody if you are not a permit holder.
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And you likely won’t. You do not have to be a permit holder to remove a gun. You are not going to get pulled over by the police in your ambulance because you have a firearm in the ambulance. You must have a permit (in some states) to carry a firearm.
 
Just be prepared to get jammed up by the NYPD. They don’t care about reasons, they will enforce the law.
Stupid,I know, but reality.
 
DesertMedic66 said:
And you likely won’t. You do not have to be a permit holder to remove a gun. You are not going to get pulled over by the police in your ambulance because you have a firearm in the ambulance. You must have a permit (in some states) to carry a firearm.
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I actually got pulled over by a county sheriff while driving an ambulance l&s in New York. But that’s minutia.

OP, @nyfiremen47 what I would do is remove the firearm(out of reach of the patient(for your safety, and let the police when they arrive secure it and decide what to do) you should do it for your safety and nothing further. Remember that firearm will just be one big liability... especially in New York.
Your scenario is also a bit loosely worded, how do you know they have a carry permit? are they conscious? If so, ask them for permission to do everything. If not remove it for your safety. Remember that you’re an emt and on a professional level are not trained in firearms, you can be a firearm expert as a side job, but remember what hat your wearing- because that’s the hat the State if New York will be looking at...
~former New Yorkian law interpreter ;)
 
NysEms2117 said:
I actually got pulled over by a county sheriff while driving an ambulance l&s in New York. But that’s minutia.

OP, @nyfiremen47 what I would do is remove the firearm(out of reach of the patient(for your safety, and let the police when they arrive secure it and decide what to do) you should do it for your safety and nothing further. Remember that firearm will just be one big liability... especially in New York.
Your scenario is also a bit loosely worded, how do you know they have a carry permit? are they conscious? If so, ask them for permission to do everything. If not remove it for your safety. Remember that you’re an emt and on a professional level are not trained in firearms, you can be a firearm expert as a side job, but remember what hat your wearing- because that’s the hat the State if New York will be looking at...
~former New Yorkian law interpreter ;)
Click to expand...

My friend,
Please enlighten the masses!
Why were you pulled over by a deputized sherriff's officer?
 
Alan L Serve said:
My friend,
Please enlighten the masses!
Why were you pulled over by a deputized sherriff's officer?
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Well I didn’t find out until I got to the hospital(because I didn’t stop) but he felt I had unsafe lane changes entering onto the NYS thruway. Meanwhile including the ambulance and the sheriffs officer there were maybe, just maybe 6 other human beings in that 5 mile stretch.
And it was really just a merge into the right lane, then the right lane ends in ~3/4 of a mile so I went to the middle lane, but it was too fast for that individual.
Best part about it- I was a LEO(Parole) at the time too :)
 
If it makes the scene unsafe, call police. If it is just an item, remove the holster and leave the firearm in the holster. Store it the same as you would store a wallet. Turn it over to security at the hospital.
 
Here is what you do... If you are ALS then jab the guy with sucks to knock him down quick as you don't want the itchy trigger fingers of NRA members and other 2A folks going off. Then grab their firearm and point it in the air pulling the trigger shooting off all the rounds in the air as fast as you can screaming "AAAAAHHHHHHH."

If you are BLS strap the guy down with a KED and a backboard and then grab the gun because the patient can no longer move and then moved to removing the ammunition as described above.
 
It's a gun. Don't pull the trigger, put it in your lock box, and you will be fine.
 
nyfiremen47 said:
good evening everyone.

Looking for some information. I cant find much online about this topic for new york state. Say you have a patient that fell from a tree and they have a carry permit for firearms. and you find that they have a firearm on them. but no family is around to secure the firearm. and police have an extended ETA and you do not have the time to wait what are your choices to do? can you ask them if you can secure the fire arm in a lockbox in the ambulance and meet police at the hospital to secure it?
but do you then take a risk of being in possession of a fire arm? do you contact 911 and advise them of your situation and have them dispatch police to the hospital and let the patient carry the fire arm with them ? or if you have the extra manpower can you advise the patient that ems is going to have a hand on the holster until we arrive at the hospital so proper people can secure the firearm?

this is something that my dept has never had to think about. any help or input would be great

Thank you
Click to expand...
Well, given that your scenario has an apparently conscious adult with a valid CCW and is carrying... you ask the patient how they want the firearm secured. If they're out in the (apparent) middle of nowhere, chances are pretty good their POV is nearby. If the patient is not conscious, simply remove the entire holster and firearm together as a single unit. This keeps the trigger covered to minimize the possibility of discharge of said firearm. Secure it in your lockbox or at least away from the patient and turn it over to security at the hospital. As someone that has a CCW, there are family members that I will not relinquish my firearm to because I know they don't have the appropriate safety training and handing a firearm to them could actually be a crime. When I travel with a firearm, usually there'll be a lock box somewhere nearby that I can use to secure my firearm as there as I sometimes go places I cannot carry. If I'm conscious, I'm going to tell you where that box is and to bring it to me... If I'm not conscious, I want you to remove the gun and holster as a single unit, keep it out of my reach, and turn it over to security when you get to the hospital. There's a slight chance that security may not have turned it over to LE when I am discharged from the hospital. If they have done so, I get to wait a few months as I get to go through the LEGR process to retrieve my gun from LE.
 
what if they don't want to secure the firearm in the lockbox, and want to keep it on their possession? Can you forcibly remove it from them? or can you refuse to treat and transport them until it is secured? in the OPs case, PD has an extended ETA, and I think that is where he is going with his question (other than the liability, in which case, don't pull the trigger, and minimal liability).
 
Seriously, refer this question to your local law enforcement authority, attorney, and state EMS agency. Your mileage WILL vary and it's better to get a formal response on letterhead before you end up disarming someone and storing their long rifle and pistol in your former LBB compartment and narcs box.

But hell, compare what they carry with your own. Dude! Nice glock, here check my H&K SFP9SK FDE...
 
DrParasite said:
what if they don't want to secure the firearm in the lockbox, and want to keep it on their possession? Can you forcibly remove it from them? or can you refuse to treat and transport them until it is secured? in the OPs case, PD has an extended ETA, and I think that is where he is going with his question (other than the liability, in which case, don't pull the trigger, and minimal liability).
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As far as I am aware most hospitals are gun free zones. So if they bring the weapon into the ED they will have that weapon taken away. For my flight job, the only person allowed onboard with a gun is a police officer and that is with approval from our pilot.
 
DrParasite said:
what if they don't want to secure the firearm in the lockbox, and want to keep it on their possession? Can you forcibly remove it from them? or can you refuse to treat and transport them until it is secured? in the OPs case, PD has an extended ETA, and I think that is where he is going with his question (other than the liability, in which case, don't pull the trigger, and minimal liability).
Click to expand...
In many states that would be a felony, in some states that is a justifiable reason for armed patient to shoot you. If the specific ambulance service has a policy against firearms in the ambulance, you can likely refuse service. If they don't, then I dont particularly care, nor do plan to enforce hospital policy if I don't work for them.
 
So it looks like we have two equally valid responses.
DesertMedic66 said:
As far as I am aware most hospitals are gun free zones. So if they bring the weapon into the ED they will have that weapon taken away. For my flight job, the only person allowed onboard with a gun is a police officer and that is with approval from our pilot.
Click to expand...
In one case, only LEOs can carry, so does that mean your agency can refuse to transport an armed CCW holder? And idc what the ER does or what their policy is,, what happens if the armed person wants to go to the hospital in your ambulance?
GMCmedic said:
In many states that would be a felony, in some states that is a justifiable reason for armed patient to shoot you. If the specific ambulance service has a policy against firearms in the ambulance, you can likely refuse service. If they don't, then I dont particularly care, nor do plan to enforce hospital policy if I don't work for them.
Click to expand...
i don't think hospital policy was mentioned, just EMS.... but if you look at @DesertMedic66 , their rule is only an LEO carries on a ship, so if you are risking a felony charge, or worse, can be justifiably shot by the gun holder if you try to remove it, I'm guessing the best option is to leave the person with their firearm.

So if they pull it out the firearm, and shoot the paramedic (as happened in Omaha), is this considered an avoidable incident?
 
DrParasite said:
So it looks like we have two equally valid responses. In one case, only LEOs can carry, so does that mean your agency can refuse to transport an armed CCW holder? And idc what the ER does or what their policy is,, what happens if the armed person wants to go to the hospital in your ambulance?
i don't think hospital policy was mentioned, just EMS.... but if you look at @DesertMedic66 , their rule is only an LEO carries on a ship, so if you are risking a felony charge, or worse, can be justifiably shot by the gun holder if you try to remove it, I'm guessing the best option is to leave the person with their firearm.

So if they pull it out the firearm, and shoot the paramedic (as happened in Omaha), is this considered an avoidable incident?
Click to expand...

I was half replying to what desertemt said in regards to hospitals.

To my knowledge, the only armed persons we will transport in our helicopter is a prison guard with an unloaded firearm (they can carry ammunition), and that has been prearranged. Anyone else disarms or is left behind.
 
DrParasite said:
So it looks like we have two equally valid responses. In one case, only LEOs can carry, so does that mean your agency can refuse to transport an armed CCW holder? And idc what the ER does or what their policy is,, what happens if the armed person wants to go to the hospital in your ambulance?
i don't think hospital policy was mentioned, just EMS.... but if you look at @DesertMedic66 , their rule is only an LEO carries on a ship, so if you are risking a felony charge, or worse, can be justifiably shot by the gun holder if you try to remove it, I'm guessing the best option is to leave the person with their firearm.

So if they pull it out the firearm, and shoot the paramedic (as happened in Omaha), is this considered an avoidable incident?
Click to expand...
We will not transport if they refuse to disarm. If they are AOx4 and are deemed of sound mind and judgement then they will get to sign AMA. If they are not then the firearm will be removed from them. For LEO, it is completely up to our pilot as they are in charge of enforcing all FAA regulations. If the PIC, Pilot In Charge, gives the ok to LEO then they remain armed with a fully loaded firearm. No one under any circumstance is allowed to carry OC/pepper spray, citizen or LEO inside the helicopter.
 
Just remember that if I'm armed and conscious and you try to forceably remove my firearm (without my consent), you risk being shot. I'm likely to consider that you're attempting to grab my gun and possibly use it against me. If your patient is conscious and armed, ASK them to disarm. If they won't, your choice is to transport them with the gun or have the patient sign AMA as you won't transport them if they're armed. If your patient is altered, get LE involved. You do NOT want get involved in a fight with an armed person who thinks you're reaching for their gun.

As to hospitals being "gun free zones" chances are pretty good that they're "gun free" by policy, not necessarily by specific law. Usually someone that's carrying and is discovered will be asked to leave... if they refuse, they'll be trespassed and that also becomes an "armed criminal action" because trespass is a crime. At least that's what I've seen for California. Other states may be different.
 
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