Pat Downs

[JPINFV]

God, I love the paranoia in this thread.

1. TSA=security theater. The vast majority of the restrictions are more about looking like they do something than actually increasing security.

2. I'm sorry, where do you work where hunters are carrying concealed rifles? I thought this thread was about searching patients?

3. I'll go back to my origional comment. Is it too much to ask that you have some sort of reasonable articulable suspicion before searching patients? Heck, even the police don't get to do a terry search on every single person that they deal with.

 

[Shishkabob]

Correct but we also aren't talking about parting down all of our patients either...just the ones who we reasonably suspect might have something dangerous on them...same level of suspicion the police use for searches.

Plus hey, I'm doing it for medical reasons...if I find anything else it's pure bonus.

 

[mycrofft]

deleted

Excuse the wisearse comment please.

 

[CAOX3]

Your right some paranoia will go along way in assuring your tucking your kids in bed at night.

This isn't a game read the headlines EMS providers are assaulted every day to varying degrees. I do my part to assure my name isn't in print the next day. Sure ninety-percent of my patients pose no threat to me at all its the ten-percent who do that force me to believe everyone MAY.

Pat downs are a cops job, ensuring my safety is my job.

 

[1badassEMT-I]

your right some paranoia will go along way in assuring your tucking your kids in bed at night.

This isn't a game read the headlines ems providers are assaulted every day to varying degrees. I do my part to assure my name isn't in print the next day. Sure ninety-percent of my patients pose no threat to me at all its the ten-percent who do that force me to believe everyone may.

Pat downs are a cops job, ensuring my safety is my job.

amen!!!!!!!!!

 

[Scottpre]

I do a lot of EMS work at a large college stadium. Got called to an AOB PT at one of the tail gating parties who was vomiting and weeble-wobbling everywhere. I get on scene and move to do my initial contact at the same time police arrived. They had me wait a second so they could pat him down. Sure enough, he had a lock-blade style knife his pocket.

I'm perfectly happy to let the cops do their thing first.

 

[DrParasite]

God, I love the paranoia in this thread.

just because your a paranoid, doesn't mean the world isn't out to get you.

2. I'm sorry, where do you work where hunters are carrying concealed rifles? I thought this thread was about searching patients?

you were the one who said who am I to take away a legal weapon that doesn't belong to me. after all right to bear arms and search and seizure rights in the constitution. I am just saying your argument is weak at best, and a danger to yourself and others at worst. I am looking out for YOUR best interests, while you seem to think that your invulnerable, and that you will never get hurt on this job. oh yeah, and people have the right to carry guns and weapons on them, and who am I, the lowly EMS professional who is about to enter a limited space area with them, to say they are not allow to bring their weapons with them, and even more, not permitted to check them for weapons because I would be invading their privacy. Sorry, my safety comes before their potential right to conceal something that can hurt me if they so chose to.

3. I'll go back to my original comment. Is it too much to ask that you have some sort of reasonable articulable suspicion before searching patients? Heck, even the police don't get to do a terry search on every single person that they deal with.

I am no cop, but I think it's a safe bet that every single person that gets arrested gets searched. every person that is placed in the back of a police car gets searched. every single person who enters a court house gets search (at least for weapons or metal objects). if you enter a jail, you will get searched. this is for the safety of the officers, and the public.

But anyone with an altered mental status (for whatever reason) should be searched. anyone who was involved in any altercation should be searched. any unconscious under the age of 55 should be searched, esp if they have a HX of using. anyone under the influence should be searched. any EDP should be searched. I think I covered everything. oh wait, anyone who you think should be searched, even if it's just because something is setting off the hairs on the back of your neck, should be searched. and if they object to being searched, then leave the scene and call the cops and let them to the search.

my safety comes before the patient's rights. if you won't consent to be searched, then you don't need the ambulance. take a taxi to the er. then, when you get to the ER, you take off all your clothes, and put on a gown. it's pretty hard to conceal a firearm or knife in your boxers or thong. but my safety comes before your right again unreasonable search and seizure.

oh and JPINFV, I am done having this discussion with you. if you don't get it by now, then you never will. and I truly hope that you don't learn your lesson the hard way and end up in the ER with a penetrating injury because you didn't want offend someone by searching them for weapons.

 

[Trayos]

Dealing in absolutes...

...means that everyone loses absolutely.
Nobody here is saying that a victim with an unknown psychological condition possibly brought on by traumatic events should be free to carry a weapon into essentially, a closed box on wheels.
Conversely, nobody is saying that an exhaustive search must be performed before each and every patient is transported.
All we have seen here is an argument about the degree of proactive scene safety. This is not a case of black and white, but light gray and dark gray.
Both of you feel the same way, essentially. Now, can we please move back to constructive discussion, instead of going into vapor-lock when somebody challenges our ideas? Everybody is changed by what they have experienced, and it would be wrong to assume that you and I have experienced the same events, and reacted in the same way. You are entitled to your own opinion as well as everybody else.

 

[lightsandsirens5]

Ohy my gosh. I just read the entire thread and all I can say is:

Six hundred ninety five trillion, twelve billion, seven hundred seventy seven million eight hundred sixty nine thousand two hundred fifty one is one hundred nineteen, one hundred nineteen is eighteen, eighteen is eight, eight is five and five is four.

Except in this case people don't want five to be four, they want it to be six and six is three and threes is five except they want it to be seventeen ant that is nine and nine is OH MY GOSH I JUST FOUND A RIFLE HIDDEN IN THIS GUYS PANTS GOOD THING I WAS SEARCHING HIM FOR NEEDLES HE COULD HAVE KILLED ME!

Ok, enough of that.

 

[Outworld]

>>>Depends on the situation. Maybe I just don't want you feeling me up because you're paranoid that I might be carrying a legal tool and if you deny care because of some unreasonable paranoia, you can bet that that would be considered abandonment. Sorry, but I can just see plenty of people here refusing to care for, say, a construction worker because they have a box cutter unless police are on scene. Yes, I think that a jury would find that sort of refusal to provide care unreasonable.<<<<

I don't have to 'feel you up' or 'pat you down' because part of my responsibility is to do a thorough physical exam. Yes, on everyone. Even if you say you only have a sore throat, or an owie on your toe.
That means that you get the kind of exam that we used to all do before the ridiculous 'focused' exam that NREMT promotes. Interestingly enough, when you do a thorough exam not only do you find a host of underlying medical problems that the pt did not tell you about, you find the knives and guns and snakes that the pt has stowed away. Then you simply set them aside out of reach, give to a family or friend or otherwise remove them from play. Pt gets the right kind of physical and you remove a potential threat, quietly and without fuss. And yes, I can do this because it is my ambulance...

 

[thatJeffguy]

I do a lot of EMS work at a large college stadium. Got called to an AOB PT at one of the tail gating parties who was vomiting and weeble-wobbling everywhere. I get on scene and move to do my initial contact at the same time police arrived. They had me wait a second so they could pat him down. Sure enough, he had a lock-blade style knife his pocket.

I'm perfectly happy to let the cops do their thing first.

A lock blade style knife?!?

Did you call Homeland Security?

Terror Code: Hot Red?

Did he detonate the device?



Seriously guy, you need to chill the hell out.


If I'm not at work, I'm carrying a weapon.

If you disarm me against my will, you've committed theft. Theft of a firearm is a first degree felony in this state and I'd go to every length to prosecute you.

Just because you managed to grind through the 110 hour class doesn't mean that you're Jack Bauer?

 

[thatJeffguy]

my safety comes first. you as a fellow provider should not argue this fact. and no, I am not going to throw it out. I will, however, confiscate it for the duration of the transport. it will be turned over to security, and they can return it when you leave the ER. oh, and just for the record, you have the right to carry a pocket knife, because it's legal.

Not quite. It's legal because you have the unalienable right to carry said device. Our rights are natural and exist regardless of the current "law".

but the TSA has an amazing collection of pocket knives, nail files, and nail clippers. try arguing with them that your search and seizure rights are being violated, and you have a right to keep your legal items. let me know how far you get, and unless i am mistaken, they are not considered law enforcement officers either.

It's prohibited, by law, to carry specific items onto commercial airlines. Could you cite the law that prohibits the carrying of specific items on an ambulance? The only one I'm aware of makes it a felony for a loaded firearm to be carried on an ambulance unless carried by an officer. So, if you disarm me and bring the gun, you're a felon.

are you a cute blond? maybe a playboy bunny? maybe you got a great rack? I mean, not that I would ever feel up any patient, but unless you meet the above 3 qualification, then the thought won't even cross my mind.

Enjoy prison.

you can see a construction work being refused care because he has a box cutter? I don't blame 'em. solution? take the box cutter away and give it to one of his coworkers. Then he can get all the treatment he wants. or, he can refuse to give it up, which tells me that he doesn't want my help that much. RMA by action, unsafe scene, you chose, if you want my help, you follow my rules. otherwise, if you are sick, i will wait until you pass out, then remove any and all items in your possession that can hurt me, and treat you accordingly. not all that complicated.

The Dumbification of America, redux.

why stop at a construction worker? what about a butcher? would you let a butcher carry his favorite knife with him (an 8 inch cleaver) that he just cut his thumb off with to the hospital? after all, it's legal for him to have. or what about a hunting accident? are you going to let the hunter keep his loaded shot gun while you transport him? after all it's his legal right to have.

If they want to grab a weapon to take to the hospital, the answer is no.

If I find something on my trauma scan, I'll make it as safe as I can. sometimes the safest place for a pocketknife is in the owners pocket.

 

[DaniGrrl]

Question about the whole, "You can't take my gun, I have rights" portion of the argument...

Don't most of the laws about concealed weapons have exceptions to where you can carry? For example, you can't be within a certain distance from schools, and you can't go into government or public buildings (including malls). I would think that an ambulance, particularly one that is transporting or going to transport you to a hospital OR one that is owned/operated by a local government, would be a place where a CCW permit would not apply.

 

[thatJeffguy]

Question about the whole, "You can't take my gun, I have rights" portion of the argument...

Don't most of the laws about concealed weapons have exceptions to where you can carry?

Some do, some don't. The smashing victory for the Constitution yesterday, handed down by SCOTUS, will be changing a lot of that.

For example, you can't be within a certain distance from schools, and you can't go into government or public buildings (including malls).

I can carry in schools and my state only prohibits me carrying in jails, but the law specifically stipulates that the jail is responsible for providing me with a locker in which to secure my firearm.

A mall isn't a "public" building, it's a private piece of land. If the land owners don't want you to carry and have posted signage to that effect, they can have you removed or arrested if they catch you.

I would think that an ambulance, particularly one that is transporting or going to transport you to a hospital OR one that is owned/operated by a local government, would be a place where a CCW permit would not apply.

You're completely correct, in most states. The carrying of a firearm on an ambulance is a felony in my state. So, do you want the patient to have to deal with that, or you?

 

[DaniGrrl]

Rather than public buildings, I should have said public accommodations. That's how it's listed here in NC, malls and theaters are called public accommodations and CCW is not permitted.

 

[JPINFV]

Some do, some don't. The smashing victory for the Constitution yesterday, handed down by SCOTUS, will be changing a lot of that.

Yep... now that the 2nd Amendment is incorporated, there's going to be a lot of court challenges...

 

[jjesusfreak01]

Rather than public buildings, I should have said public accommodations. That's how it's listed here in NC, malls and theaters are called public accommodations and CCW is not permitted.

Ugh, I never understand why politicians think that passing laws will ever prevent criminals from carrying anywhere. If a person is a convicted felon, tell them they can't have a gun. If they ever get caught with one, put them away. Passing laws that only effect every non-criminal in a society doesn't protect anyone. Also, it should be the right of private businesses to determine if people can carry (as malls are private businesses).

PS: I agree that ambulances should be a place where guns are prohibited, but that's hardly enforceable since criminals are rarely trying to sneak guns onto ambulances, more like they have a bullet hole in their chest and an unfired gun in their pocket.

 

[DrParasite]

A lock blade style knife?!?//Did you call Homeland Security?//Terror Code: Hot Red?//Did he detonate the device?

probably not,but I am guessing the knife was taken away from the intoxicated individual so it wouldn't be pulled on the EMT if the pt decided to get combative.

Seriously guy, you need to chill the hell out.

what are you basing this on?

If I'm not at work, I'm carrying a weapon.

which is your right, should you do that.

If you disarm me against my will, you've committed theft. Theft of a firearm is a first degree felony in this state and I'd go to every length to prosecute you.

and you will be laughed out of the court room. not only that, but if i sustain any injuries while you are resisting my attempting to keep myself safe, I will make sure you are charged with assault & battery of a public safety professional, interference with a public safety professional in the course of his duties, reckless endangerment of my crew and the public in general, and hopefully after LEOs arrival, and I tell them what happen, you will continue to resist and they will subdue you appropriately and take away your weapon. not only that, but you will probably lose you CCW permit, and spend some time in jail for all the crimes you commit.

or, I will let you keep the weapon, call LEOs leave the scene, where your condition will deteriorate, and if you pass out, you will again be stripped of every weapon you have on you, and if need be, be transported to the hospital in hand cuffs (protective custody, for your safety because you are now altered as a result of your illness or injury). Feel free to tell you they are violating your rights, I'm sure they will love to hear that.

Just because you managed to grind through the 110 hour class doesn't mean that you're Jack Bauer?

and just because you are always armed, doesn't mean you are going to be transported to the hospital with your weapons still on you

Not quite. It's legal because you have the unalienable right to carry said device. Our rights are natural and exist regardless of the current "law".

I see we have another guy who just doesn't get it. You absolutely have the right to carry. Fine. I have the right to not treat or transport you anywhere as long as you have that weapon on you. My safety trumps your rights. Feel free to try to sue me, I'm pretty sure a reasonable judge and jury will laugh you out of court, and that's assuming you can find a lawyer to even consider the case.

It's prohibited, by law, to carry specific items onto commercial airlines. Could you cite the law that prohibits the carrying of specific items on an ambulance? The only one I'm aware of makes it a felony for a loaded firearm to be carried on an ambulance unless carried by an officer. So, if you disarm me and bring the gun, you're a felon.

oh hell no. If I am disarming you, then you are not getting the gun back. absolutely not. it's being turned over to law enforcement. you are more than welcome to get it back from them.

Enjoy prison.

I've been there, but usually at the request of law enforcement in function of an EMT. never as an inmate, and I assure you, I have no plans to change that.

The Dumbification of America, redux.

I know, anything you can't understand, you call dumbification. It's called using your faulty logic to prove how incorrect your point is. nice try though.

If they want to grab a weapon to take to the hospital, the answer is no.

why not? it's the inalienable right do do it. why the backstepping?

If I find something on my trauma scan, I'll make it as safe as I can. sometimes the safest place for a pocketknife is in the owners pocket.

a pocket knife? are we talking about a 2 inch swiss army knife? of a 6 inch hunting knife? I might let a patient keep a small pocket knife. key word is might, it would depend on the call.

but the safest place for the knife, in regards to the EMT who is treating the injured, which is me, is in the hands of law enforcement, or in a worst case, MY POCKET. not with the patient. I am not stealing it, I am making sure said weapon does not get used against me. and it gets turned over to hospital security when we arrive at the hospital, where it gets returned to the patient when he and the hospital part ways.

 

[JPINFV]

and you will be laughed out of the court room. not only that, but if i sustain any injuries while you are resisting my attempting to keep myself safe, I will make sure you are charged with assault & battery of a public safety professional, interference with a public safety professional in the course of his duties, reckless endangerment of my crew and the public in general, and hopefully after LEOs arrival, and I tell them what happen, you will continue to resist and they will subdue you appropriately and take away your weapon. not only that, but you will probably lose you CCW permit, and spend some time in jail for all the crimes you commit.

Good luck getting those charges to stick in the scenario as presented. I especially liked the "reckless endangerment" charges.

but the safest place for the knife, in regards to the EMT who is treating the injured, which is me, is in the hands of law enforcement, or in a worst case, MY POCKET. not with the patient. I am not stealing it, I am making sure said weapon does not get used against me. and it gets turned over to hospital security when we arrive at the hospital, where it gets returned to the patient when he and the hospital part ways.

A knife is a tool more often than a weapon. It's amazing what the use of the most correct noun will do to a conversation.

 

[DrParasite]

A knife is a tool more often than a weapon. It's amazing what the use of the most correct noun will do to a conversation.

and a baseball bat is a sports tool. and a 12 inch phillips screw driver is a handyman tool. and a machete is a tool that is used to clear brush in the rain forests. doesn't mean any of those items can be used as a weapon to hurt you.