Pat Downs

[EMT012]

What's everyones view on Outer Pocket/Clothing 'Pat Downs' on patients suspected of having needles or sharp objects on them?

I know that LEO's are the ones who can legally pull things out of peoples pockets, I'm not talking about any drastic 'Pat Downs' just precautions prior to having to lift someone either out of a house, up a hill/down a hill, or out of a car and onto a stretcher...

 

[elnjaime]

Wow, don't think i'd like to pat anything and find out the hard way they had a needle. is that allowed in WA?

 

[EMT012]

Wow, don't think i'd like to pat anything and find out the hard way they had a needle. is that allowed in WA?

It's a grey area but it is allowed, provided you #1 preferably have an LEO on scene or supervisor to observe you doing so, or have an LEO officer perform it. #2 have a reasonable cause for doing so, (I.E. known drug addict, etc)

This topic is actually coming off a needlestick incident we had a week ago... Only this wasn't a drug addict (at least we don't think so), it was a diabetic and he had a syringe on him, (were still not quite sure). I wasn't there so I couldn't tell ya what the blood sugar level was or any vitals. I guess when the EMT went to pick him up (underarm and leg carry) he got needle struck. I haven't heard any outcomes of the needlestick (not sure if anything came back positive/negative) but just a curious and concerning topic to bring up.

 

[Shishkabob]

Just as an FYI, non-LEO personnel are NOT bound by the same standards of reasonable suspicion / probable cause when it comes to searches and seizures as cops are.

 

[EMT012]

Just as an FYI, non-LEO personnel are NOT bound by the same standards of reasonable suspicion / probable cause when it comes to searches and seizures as cops are.

No, however that example I used above is my agencies 'procedure'... more or less.

I'm talking more or so about liability and safety issues. The what 'if' and 'when' and 'how' and 'why' questions, when it comes to probable needlesticks and precautions.

 

[Aidey]

In the case of EMS "patting down" someone we aren't searching them for evidence or anything like that so I'm not sure what kind of legal issues there would be. The two situations I've seen (and done it) in are looking for ID/medical info and looking for weapons. In those cases the pt is generally unconscious, or significantly altered and there is always a witness. Same as if we are looking around for medications at someone's house or going through a bag.

If the pt is conscious we ask them to empty their own pockets. If the pt is combative PD does it. For what it is worth, I've seen LEOs overlook small stuff they find when the pt is only being searched as a safety issue, and not as a suspected criminal.


In the situation posed by the OP, I could see that happening to anyone really. I have to admit I would not expect a diabetic to be carrying an uncapped needle. A needle yes, but not uncapped.

 

[Shishkabob]

No, however that example I used above is my agencies 'procedure'... more or less.

I'm talking more or so about liability and safety issues. The what 'if' and 'when' and 'how' and 'why' questions, when it comes to probable needlesticks and precautions.

"No" what? I already told you--- Non-Law Enforcement people are not subject to the same requirements to search someone as police are, hence what liability?

 

[JPINFV]

In the case of EMS "patting down" someone we aren't searching them for evidence

To be fair, a police pat down (Terry search) isn't done to look for evidence and is very limited in nature. Now if a police officer finds something, then they aren't required to over look it, but a Terry search isn't anything more than a quick look for weapons.

"No" what? I already told you--- Non-Law Enforcement people are not subject to the same requirements to search someone as police are, hence what liability?

Theft. Battery if done against the patient's refusal. If the patient is A/Ox4 and competent, what right do you have to take any item off of me? If I tell a paramedic that they can't do a pat down on me, then he has no choice. You can't, however, refuse a Terry search from a police officer. Additionally, while we are not subject to the same restrictions, we aren't subject to the same powers either.

 

[EMT012]

"No" what? I already told you--- Non-Law Enforcement people are not subject to the same requirements to search someone as police are, hence what liability?

No... As in EMS are NOT subject to LEO standards of Search. However the liability is in several things as JPINFV mentioned, battery (unwanted touching), sexual harrasment claims, theft possibilities, assults, etc. The 'Pat down' I'm referring to usually is for EMS safety such as making sure a pt does not have a needle in their pockets, or a knife prior to picking them up on to a stretcher or removing them from a dangerous scene (as I mentioned above) DO NOT forget that most drug addicts are already paranoid enough, so having a EMS provider search (when they are conscious) could spell out trouble, even when it's for EMS safety, OR looking at an unconscious pt for any medical ID (in our area LEO's have to be present). What I was referring to was merely safety searches for EMS, not the powers we do or do not have as opposed to LEO's.

Sorry I should've been more clearer.

Also: The patient in this case was conscious and talking, I'm not sure if a 'Pat Down' was done, but maybe it could've prevented a needlestick?

 

[the_negro_puppy]

If you are suspicious and the pt refuses a pat down, refuse to treat them, its that simple. Your safety comes first and if you have reason to believe you may be endangered dont touch them. It never usually comes to that but its good to just ask politely if they might have any sharps on them etc, most of the time they know you want to help them and will cooperate.

 

[medicdan]

I have certainly done it before... Any psychiatric patient (or EDP) I take from facility to facility, that has a history of SI or HI with weapons. I do a quick search for pills, weapons, stowaways, etc. Remember, I am in the back of a small space (van), and no idea what they are carrying.
Whenever I do a prisoner transport (with a CO in the back of the truck, especially hospital to prison ward), I ask the officers to do a quick pat down. I can never tell when they were last searched, what comb they sharpened, etc.
It's a personal safety kind of thing. I always do it in the presence of my partner, and talk through my intentions and the steps to what I'm doing...

 

[exodus]

For every psych pt:
"Can you turn your pockets inside out and lift up your pant legs?" That's adequate for me since I restrain all my psych pt's before getting in the back of the rig.

 

[medicdan]

For every psych pt:
"Can you turn your pockets inside out and lift up your pant legs?" That's adequate for me since I restrain all my psych pt's before getting in the back of the rig.

You restrain ALL of your psych patients?

 

[exodus]

You restrain ALL of your psych patients?

Well, all 5150's and danger to self / other conservator's. Company policy.

 

[Shishkabob]

However the liability is in several things as JPINFV mentioned,

/me thinks you need to look up the word "liability".

If I tell a paramedic that they can't do a pat down on me, then he has no choice

I'd LOVE to see a patient differentiate between a 'pat down' and my physical assessment, and then prove it in court. Not going to happen. If during your assessment you find something that might be a weapon (which is ALL a "pat down" is intended to do) then hey, call PD.


Now, if they are unconscious, and you are unable to 'search' for medical identification as per what you said, that's just stupid.

Man, when I'm on a call and the person is unconscious, I'm having someone go through their wallet, their purse, their entire body, their fridge, their drug cabinet, etc etc.

 

[JPINFV]

/me thinks you need to look up the word "liability".

Are you talking criminal liability or civil liability?

I'd LOVE to see a patient differentiate between a 'pat down' and my physical assessment, and then prove it in court. Not going to happen. If during your assessment you find something that might be a weapon (which is ALL a "pat down" is intended to do) then hey, call PD.

Then you "pat down" all patients, hence making this discussion redundant.

 

[JPINFV]

Well, all 5150's and danger to self / other conservator's. Company policy.

Ah, I love the paranoia that companies have over patients with psychiatric disorders.

 

[Shishkabob]

Then you "pat down" all patients, hence making this discussion redundant.

Exactly.

If you have permission to assess, than the argument is pointless, as they already gave you permission to touch them.

If you DON'T have permission to assess, than the argument is pointless as well, as you wont be touching the patient to BE injured in some way.

 

[EMT012]

/me thinks you need to look up the word "liability".

QUOTE]

"A liability can mean something that is a hindrance or puts an individual or group at a disadvantage, or something that someone is responsible for, or something that increases the chance of something occurring (i.e. it is a cause)."

Wanna look it up in the dictionary for us Linuss?

 

[fortsmithman]

/me thinks you need to look up the word "liability".




I'd LOVE to see a patient differentiate between a 'pat down' and my physical assessment, and then prove it in court. Not going to happen. If during your assessment you find something that might be a weapon (which is ALL a "pat down" is intended to do) then hey, call PD.


Now, if they are unconscious, and you are unable to 'search' for medical identification as per what you said, that's just stupid.

Man, when I'm on a call and the person is unconscious, I'm having someone go through their wallet, their purse, their entire body, their fridge, their drug cabinet, etc etc.

If it's a at down we may get in trouble but if we're doing a head to toe assessment then OK. A while back in Edmonton Alberta a pt pulled a pistol while in the back of the ambulance and all EMS personnel left the rig quickly.