Pat Downs

JPINFV

Gadfly
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So can steel toed boots. Do you force everyone wearing boots to take their boots off before stepping into the ambulance?
 

DrParasite

The fire extinguisher is not just for show
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absolutely not, that would be absurd.

I do, however, have them sit on the cot, with a seatbelt over their thighs/knees, as well as across their chest and pelvis, to ensure they don't fall off the cot during transport. plus if that are going to get up and stomp me to death, I have a little bit of warning (when they start remove said belts to kick me with said boots)

but I forgot, you are ok with allowing your patients to carry weapons on them in the ambulance, so I will stop wasting my time with you and no longer respond to your nonsense. hopefully others can learn from your mistakes and ignorance.
 

JPINFV

Gadfly
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I'd argue that it depends on the "weapon" (since just about anything can be considered a weapon) and the situation. Not all patients are drug crazed psych patients with homicidal and suicidal ideations. This thread is getting to the security theater point a la TSA...
 

MrBrown

Forum Deputy Chief
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Sasha can come pat me down any day before I go into her castle ....

This "DOCTOR" jumpsuit is awful thick and padded and you can hide all sorts in the pockets and gosh knows where else :D

... and now back to your regularly scheduled thread

"Hello HEMS, yes, I see, OK, thanks mate, ta"
"Oi bloody hell Oz get up, its a go!"

Brown away! :ph34r:
 
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usafmedic45

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but I forgot, you are ok with allowing your patients to carry weapons on them in the ambulance, so I will stop wasting my time with you and no longer respond to your nonsense. hopefully others can learn from your mistakes and ignorance.
No offense, but JP isn't the one coming off as ignorant. Technically, neither are you but I can't elaborate further on that without the mods swinging the ban stick at me again.

Seriously, I could do more damage to you a lot quicker unarmed, or armed with mundane items, than you could do to me with a knife most likely. If the patient is not an overt threat, there is no reason to take a pocket knife from them. Maybe I'm not paranoid enough, but I don't feel the need to strip search the 50 y/o redneck with chest pain just to make sure he doesn't have a dissembled Uzi stashed in his rectum. The illusion of safety you seem hellbent on achieving isn't worth the trouble, especially given that I don't really enjoy channeling Robert Stack from Beavis and Butthead Do America: "Body cavity searches all around! Don't stop until you reach the back of their teeth!"

Now, guns and Bowie knives get a "Hey, why don't toss that flamethrower in your car/leave that Panzerfaust here/give your katana to your friend there because otherwise the cops who work security at the hospital are going to take it from you as soon as we arrive. I don't want you to have anything else to worry about, OK?". If you act like you're doing them a favor, most people are happy to play along.
 

Stew

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At the risk of adding fuel...
I won't pat down my patient's, I wasn't trained too. If I'm concerned for my safety or that of my partner I will ask the patient if they have anything on them. If they say yes I'll ask them where and if they are happy for me to hold onto it. I'm not up close and personal when they pull anything out, and if I'm not happy it's safe to do this I'll ask for the police.

Thus far most patient's have been happy to tell me what they have on them and more than happy for me to hold onto this.

We are covered in my state my the "Ambulance Service Act 1991" which gives ambulance officers the power to take any reasonable measures to ensure the safety of ourselves, another officer or any other person. Included in this, we may "remove from or otherwise deal with, any article or material in the area" and "request any person to take all reasonable measures to assist the authorised officer."

Like I said I've never had any problems thus far (touch wood) and would never quote legislation to somebody, ultimately if I feel I'm not safe I'll leave and wait for Police (something I have done and will continue to do).
 

thatJeffguy

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probably not,but I am guessing the knife was taken away from the intoxicated individual so it wouldn't be pulled on the EMT

Was the intox pt a young college age man? Athletic? What shape was the EMT?

Anyone can be violent, any situation can be dangerous. Thinking that you've made the world a safer place by taking away a three inch piece of steel is a false notion.

if the pt decided to get combative.what are you basing this on?which is your right, should you do that.and you will be laughed out of the court room. not only that, but if i sustain any injuries while you are resisting my attempting to keep myself safe, I will make sure you are charged with assault & battery of a public safety professional, interference with a public safety professional in the course of his duties, reckless endangerment of my crew and the public in general, and hopefully after LEOs arrival, and I tell them what happen,

Well, OF COURSE you'd do that! My god, someone violated your rights! They haven't taken a 110hour class at the community college, where do they derive the power to do so?

or, I will let you keep the weapon, call LEOs leave the scene, where your condition will deteriorate, and if you pass out, you will again be stripped of every weapon you have on you,
You'll be taking my necklace? My hands? My watch? My pen?

Did you, by any chance, want to be a policeman but fail some sort of test so you Plan emt-B'ed it into an ambulance? Do you carry a EMT-b badge/shield?

and just because you are always armed, doesn't mean you are going to be transported to the hospital with your weapons still on you :p

So, I'm lying there in a ditch all effed up. I'm armed. I must go to the hospital. You're not permitted to possess my firearm in an ambulance. Do you just chuck it back into the woods? Drop it on the nearby playground? Worm-hole it to the Tele-Tubbies? You understand that if YOU disarm me, that weapon is now in YOUR control and YOU are a felon for bringing it on the ambulance, right? What if you go to disarm me and, through your own ignorance, shoot me in the leg? In the spine? I bet you're department won't be doing much to help you then, you'll be charged, arrested and sued ten shades of blind.

I see we have another guy who just doesn't get it. You absolutely have the right to carry. Fine. I have the right to not treat or transport you anywhere as long as you have that weapon on you.

Source for that, please?

A "decision" isn't a "right". Rights are absolute and are naturally endowed upon us by the fact we are living, sentient moral agents. You can "decide" to do whatever you want, but you'd better make sure that your department is on your side here.

The Brady 9th specifically says that you're not to remove or handle weapons. I'm sure that your medical director is just itching to put his license and livelihood on the line for some -b that decides to make up his own rules on the field. I'm sure your department is just itching to pay the millions of dollars they'd owe someone if you disarmed them and, in the process, accidentally tapped him or someone else.

oh hell no. If I am disarming you, then you are not getting the gun back. absolutely not. it's being turned over to law enforcement. you are more than welcome to get it back from them.

Let's "scenario" this one a bit.

You're dispatched to a "fall victim" at a nearby popular rock formation. Upon arrival you find a 24 y/o man and the one bystander says he fell from twenty feet and landed on his chest. You determine the scene is safe and approach. The man is awake, alert PPTE and having labored breathing. You cut away his shirt and notice he's got a flail chest and a large bruise covering his sternum. The patient goes unconscious, resp of 12, labored.

As you go to log-roll him you notice he's got a small handgun in the small of his back.

Now, it's illegal for YOU to have the handgun in the ambulance. No LEO is present, the one bystander wandered off. How do you take this critical patient to the hospital? Stand back and wait thirty minutes for the LEO's to arrive? They might as well just send the coroner. Take the weapon yourself? If you manage to take it without shooting him or someone else, then what? You said you wouldnt' take it in the rig, so what do you do? Chuck it off to the side?

You're partner notices that the patient now has pronounced JVD.

Go!

I know, anything you can't understand, you call dumbification. It's called using your faulty logic to prove how incorrect your point is. nice try though.
why not? it's the inalienable right do do it. why the backstepping?
I'm talking about the hoplophobia that's present in America today. The irrational fear of inanimate objects. "Mommy make bad thing disappear" mentality.

a pocket knife? are we talking about a 2 inch swiss army knife? of a 6 inch hunting knife? I might let a patient keep a small pocket knife. key word is might, it would depend on the call.

So you basically are completely arbitrary as to what you do? Also, you can't make someone not "keep" something, you might temporarily keep it from them but you don't get to decide that this persons possession is no longer their own.

but the safest place for the knife, in regards to the EMT who is treating the injured, which is me, is in the hands of law enforcement, or in a worst case, MY POCKET.

You should travel to Oakland CA and ask a young man there where the safest place for a gun is. I bet he wouldn't say "in the hands of a policeman", because he was shot, execution style, by a policeman while he was handcuffed and proned out.

not with the patient. I am not stealing it, I am making sure said weapon does not get used against me. and it gets turned over to hospital security when we arrive at the hospital, where it gets returned to the patient when he and the hospital part ways.

So why wouldn't you do this with a gun?
 

Sassafras

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Ok, so legally what does an EMT do when they come on the scene and the patient is packing? I'm probably showing my noobishness here, but I'm not feeling comfortable having a patient carrying a loaded gun in the back of my rig when they are deemed critical enough to go for a ride in my bus. But I'm learning legally I can not remove said item? I have to let them carry it with them? I can understand certain situations are a judgement call. Maybe even guns are a judgement call. I don't know, but given we weren't ever presented with such a scenario in class I really don't know what to do in the above described situation.
 

thatJeffguy

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Ok, so legally what does an EMT do when they come on the scene and the patient is packing?
Depends state to state.

If you come upon a scene where a guy is OD'ed, you can take the drugs to the hospital with you although I have no idea why they do that, it's not like th M.D. Is gonna race down and mass spectrometer the sample.

If you can articulate the reasons to a reasonable person, you'll probably be OK. If you end up delaying patient care because of the inanimate object, you'll probably not be ok.

I'm probably showing my noobishness here, but I'm not feeling comfortable having a patient carrying a loaded gun in the back of my rig when they are deemed critical enough to go for a ride in my bus.

Why not? What's an unconscious patient going to do with a weapon? How does a degree of illness, per se, mandate that the individual is unsafe with the weapon?

But I'm learning legally I can not remove said item? I have to let them carry it with them? I can understand certain situations are a judgement call. Maybe even guns are a judgement call. I don't know, but given we weren't ever presented with such a scenario in class I really don't know what to do in the above described situation.

You've got to use initiative. A combative patient covered with gang tattoos found at the corner of Crack Rock and MLK Jr Blvd packing heat is one thing. An elderly man having a MI at the Country Buffet is another.
 

Sassafras

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I'm thinking unconcious pts can suddenly become concious and be majorly altered and combative. I've seen men have heart attacks and be unresponsive to the first 2 shocks only to jump up and try to beat the bejeebuz out of the docs on the third jolt. But my concern isn't as much the unconcious but the altered patient that could become scared and combative. Or the assault victim who's massively pissed off for being attacked.
 

DrParasite

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Ok, so legally what does an EMT do when they come on the scene and the patient is packing?
depends on how much you value your own safety. Most would consider an armed patient who wants to keep his loaded fire arm to be an unsafe scene, and as such, EMS shouldn't be entering said unsafe scene. Some think it's ok to let the patient keep it. I guess it comes down to what you think, and how much you value your life and safety.
I'm probably showing my noobishness here, but I'm not feeling comfortable having a patient carrying a loaded gun in the back of my rig when they are deemed critical enough to go for a ride in my bus.
you aren't showing your noobishness, you are showing that you have a brain. An intelligent EMS provider who values his safety and his life would think the same as you. remember, what's the first thing you check? scene safety.
But I'm learning legally I can not remove said item? I have to let them carry it with them?
I am pretty sure there is no law that says you can't remove a gun from a patient, despite what some might be saying. otherwise, hospitals would allow people to carry their guns as well. and contrary what some think, YOU DO NOT NEED TO LET A PATIENT CARRY A LOADED FIREARM INTO YOUR AMBULANCE. If they insist on keeping it, then they don't need the ambulance, and it becomes an unsafe scene, and leave until the cops arrive.
I can understand certain situations are a judgement call. Maybe even guns are a judgement call. I don't know, but given we weren't ever presented with such a scenario in class I really don't know what to do in the above described situation.
instead of asking for ideas on how you should from people in different states, why not ask your fellow squad members? or even better, ask your local law enforcement agency what you think they would do.

Some people here are apparently supermen, and are not afraid of being shot. Me, I don't want any more holes in my body than when I started my shift. That means the patient doesn't get to bring his weapons with him. And if he insists, than he obviously doesn't need an ambulance that badly.
 

DrParasite

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Why not? What's an unconscious patient going to do with a weapon? How does a degree of illness, per se, mandate that the individual is unsafe with the weapon?
hmm, what will an unconcious OD person with a gun in his belt do when you push narcan, wake him form his high, and see several people he doesn't know standing over him? :rolleyes:
 

usafmedic45

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hmm, what will an unconcious OD person with a gun in his belt do when you push narcan, wake him form his high, and see several people he doesn't know standing over him? :rolleyes:
That's why you restrain him before giving him the Narcan. It's a stupid move to reverse medications like narcotics or benzos without making sure the patient is properly restrained.
 

JPINFV

Gadfly
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remember, what's the first thing you check? scene safety.
Did you seriously just quote a skills sheet? No, seriously? Do you tell the fire fighters to pull the engine around the corner because the axes on board make the scene unsafe?

even better, ask your local law enforcement agency what you think they would do.
This is the only advice of yours worth following. The rest sounds like the paranoid bull crud that spews forth from the Brady Bunch Campaign for Gun Grabbing. A scene with a gun is not necessarily safe nor unsafe. A gun is an inanimate object that isn't going to magically jump up and shoot anyone. However the presence of a gun alone shouldn't cause anyone to cover there eyes, scream, shout, and panic.

Some people here are apparently supermen, and are not afraid of being shot. Me, I don't want any more holes in my body than when I started my shift. That means the patient doesn't get to bring his weapons with him. And if he insists, than he obviously doesn't need an ambulance that badly.
The only thing more dangerous than a patient with a gun is an EMT with no fire arms experience trying to handle and disarm a gun. A holstered fire arm is much more safe than an EMT bumbling around trying to figure out how to unload it.
hmm, what will an unconcious OD person with a gun in his belt do when you push narcan, wake him form his high, and see several people he doesn't know standing over him? :rolleyes:

What exactly is your obsession about anyone who is armed being a drug addict, patient with a psychiatric disorder or a criminal?
 

Trayos

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I think that most patients should be willing to put aside their weaponry if told that it would be taken from them anyway at a later time, especially if you do it in a overtly empathetic way. Ordering a person with a weapon around would probably complicate the situation, regardless of whether or not they were in the frame of mind to use it.
 

Sasha

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Sasha can come pat me down any day before I go into her castle ....

This "DOCTOR" jumpsuit is awful thick and padded and you can hide all sorts in the pockets and gosh knows where else :D

... and now back to your regularly scheduled thread

"Hello HEMS, yes, I see, OK, thanks mate, ta"
"Oi bloody hell Oz get up, its a go!"

Brown away! :ph34r:

Prior to entrance into Sasha's Castle all guests are strip searched. It negates the need for a pat down.
 

JPINFV

Gadfly
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Prior to entrance into Sasha's Castle all guests are strip searched. It negates the need for a pat down.

Sasha, are you mixing business and pleasure again?
 

Sasha

Forum Chief
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Sasha, are you mixing business and pleasure again?

Perhaps....

But, have you ever considered the possiblity of the patient beating you to death with tennis shoes? Or using their long gold chain necklace to strangle you to death? Removing all clothing and jewelry, while potentially humiliating the patient, ensures that I'm ultra safe. And if they're big, strong, well muscled, I might even restrain them....

Oh, there I go mixing business and pleasure again....
 

usafmedic45

Forum Deputy Chief
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Prior to entrance into Sasha's Castle all guests are strip searched. It negates the need for a pat down.

Am I welcome to bring my girlfriend along? :lol:
 
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