Paramedics Found Guilty in Last Trial in Elijah McClain Death

Tigger

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Lots to unpack. Was it necessary to sedate this person? Was the dose dangerous? Are criminal charges appropriate? We could go on.

Whatever happened, to me this boils down to failing to monitor the patient. Sedating the severely agitated will always be a part of EMS, have a plan for when things go south.
 

ffemt8978

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DrParasite

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Sentenced to 5 years

Our prison system is designed to do two things: 1) protect society from those who would cause it harm, and 2) punish offenders, with the goal of not having them commit the same crime due to these consequences. Does this sentence do either of these things?

the AG said he "never properly assessed McClain before he knowingly authorized giving him more ketamine than was needed." if it's more Ketamine than needed, then it's a medicinal error. he never properly assessed McClaim? That's a fair statement... I guess the AG wants the cops to get thrown around and injured by very violent EDP, and only when the situation is calm, then the paramedics should assess and perform interventions. With 1 out of 3 cops convicted (and that 1 cop filing appeals as we speak), maybe that is what the EMS community should do? I guess the mother thinks paramedics should tell cops how to deal with violent people, just like cops needs to listen to the crowd when they complain about the cops using force against someone who is resisting arrest.

Was this case decided based on the facts of the case, or based on the outrage of the community, looking for someone to blame? If the victim's race had been different, would there have been a different jury verdict? If there were 12 paramedics in the jury box (ie, a jury of their peers), instead of 12 people who had never dealt with a situation where split-second decisions needed to be made, would the outcomes have been different?

“Will paramedics now be held be held responsible for outcomes beyond their control?” I wouldn't say this is "beyond their control" but they should monitor their patient, as they (reportedly) failed to monitor the patient after ketamine was administered... But this makes me glad I am no longer on the ambulance because I can see paramedics second-guessing themselves when it comes to giving certain medications.

After all, any accidental error can result in 5 years in prison, if the outcome is poor and the media causes political pressure for criminal charges to be filed.
 

ffemt8978

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We're a way too bi-polar and extreme society at the moment. We'll demand the release of murder, drug dealers, and such while demanding life plus cancer for other crimes at the same time.

But what do we expect when top prosecutors are forced to run for election periodically? They have to pander to the voters, and make sure they get their face on the news.

Of course, prosecutors who don't have to be accountable to the public are even worse.
 

E tank

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We're a way too bi-polar and extreme society at the moment. We'll demand the release of murder, drug dealers, and such while demanding life plus cancer for other crimes at the same time.

But what do we expect when top prosecutors are forced to run for election periodically? They have to pander to the voters, and make sure they get their face on the news.

Of course, prosecutors who don't have to be accountable to the public are even worse.
Yeah but judges should know better. The Vanderbilt nurse was convicted of 2 felonies and was looking at 8 years. The judge saw the consequences of sending her to prison and didn't do it. But it isn't surprising to me which states these type decisions are handed down in.
 
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Tigger

Tigger

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Our prison system is designed to do two things: 1) protect society from those who would cause it harm, and 2) punish offenders, with the goal of not having them commit the same crime due to these consequences. Does this sentence do either of these things?

the AG said he "never properly assessed McClain before he knowingly authorized giving him more ketamine than was needed." if it's more Ketamine than needed, then it's a medicinal error. he never properly assessed McClaim? That's a fair statement... I guess the AG wants the cops to get thrown around and injured by very violent EDP, and only when the situation is calm, then the paramedics should assess and perform interventions. With 1 out of 3 cops convicted (and that 1 cop filing appeals as we speak), maybe that is what the EMS community should do? I guess the mother thinks paramedics should tell cops how to deal with violent people, just like cops needs to listen to the crowd when they complain about the cops using force against someone who is resisting arrest.

Was this case decided based on the facts of the case, or based on the outrage of the community, looking for someone to blame? If the victim's race had been different, would there have been a different jury verdict? If there were 12 paramedics in the jury box (ie, a jury of their peers), instead of 12 people who had never dealt with a situation where split-second decisions needed to be made, would the outcomes have been different?

“Will paramedics now be held be held responsible for outcomes beyond their control?” I wouldn't say this is "beyond their control" but they should monitor their patient, as they (reportedly) failed to monitor the patient after ketamine was administered... But this makes me glad I am no longer on the ambulance because I can see paramedics second-guessing themselves when it comes to giving certain medications.

After all, any accidental error can result in 5 years in prison, if the outcome is poor and the media causes political pressure for criminal charges to be filed.
I do not think there are many times in medicine where split-second decisions need to be made about medication administration. Taking a second to think before making a decision, even on chaotic scenes, is what saves patient lives and provider careers.

Would that have changed this situation? No idea. Maybe they would have still decided to give sedation, but maybe they also would have had a better plan for the next steps.

I absolutely think twice (maybe thrice?) about the use of sedation now. I am not the "use only when absolutely necessary person," but I do it less than I used to. I don't think this has improved the care patients have received, but it's the new reality in Colorado after this case and a few others. Same goes for law enforcement, it is quite noticeable how unwilling they are to be "hands-on" even in an obvious medical situation now.
 

EpiEMS

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Medical error, sure. Negligent homicide, feels like a stretch.
 

alphatrauma

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Our prison system is designed to do two things: 1) protect society from those who would cause it harm, and 2) punish offenders, with the goal of not having them commit the same crime due to these consequences. Does this sentence do either of these things?

The prison system is actually designed to generate revenue and capitalize off of cheap labor, which in turn provides incentive to keep them full by way of a revolving door mechanism rife with frivolous arrests, prosecutions and inequitable applications of sentencing guidelines.

Was justice served? Has it ever been to popular opinion/satisfaction? 🤔
 

CCCSD

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The prison system is actually designed to generate revenue and capitalize off of cheap labor, which in turn provides incentive to keep them full by way of a revolving door mechanism rife with frivolous arrests, prosecutions and inequitable applications of sentencing guidelines.

Was justice served? Has it ever been to popular opinion/satisfaction? 🤔
Soooo much incorrect in your post.
 

alphatrauma

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Soooo much incorrect in your post.
I'll wait for you to point out the specifics and I'll rebut with data/case study... and gentleman's honor (will NOT be using ChatGPT or anything similar)
 

FiremanMike

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The prison system is actually designed to generate revenue and capitalize off of cheap labor, which in turn provides incentive to keep them full by way of a revolving door mechanism rife with frivolous arrests, prosecutions and inequitable applications of sentencing guidelines.
Source? Peer reviewed academic resources only please.
 

E tank

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The prison system is actually designed to generate revenue and capitalize off of cheap labor, which in turn provides incentive to keep them full by way of a revolving door mechanism rife with frivolous arrests, prosecutions and inequitable applications of sentencing guidelines.

Was justice served? Has it ever been to popular opinion/satisfaction? 🤔
So you're saying that the 'prison system' (which one exactly?) makes meaningfully more than $43000/year off of an inmate pressing license plates or maintaining irrigation ditches? Sounds like the script came in the morning mail...
 

alphatrauma

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Source? Peer reviewed academic resources only please.
I would have it no other way...

Let's start off by understanding (and conceding) that my statement you quoted does not directly apply to the case of the Paramedics who were convicted, nor does it attempt to address whether they deserved the guilty verdict and/or did anything wrong.

Now on to the meat and potatoes. My assertion is that the prison systems are not designed to do two things (I'll get to what I purport they are designed to do further along) numbered below:
  1. protect society from those who would cause it harm, and
  2. punish offenders, with the goal of not having them commit the same crime due to these consequences
Why? I'll work backwards from #2. Punishing offenders with the goal of not having them commit the SAME crime seems a bit monolithic, so let's go out on a limb and say that this would also include committing any other crime after being "rehabilitated", and then ideally returning to become a productive member of society. It is widely known, and notated in this National Institue of Health article, that the U.S. has the highest incarceration rate in the world. Additionally, a recidivism study by the Bureau of Justice & Statistics reported that 68% of released prisoners were arrested within 3 years, 79% within 6 years, and 83% within 9 years. This does not align with the "goal" presumption in #2. We have the world's second largest prison population (China #1) effectively moving through a revolving door. The goal of #2 appears to be apathetic or incompetent failure, as the numbers reflect exactly that... poor performance.

Ok, now #1. So how does the prison system protect society from those who would cause it harm? The easy answer is to lock people up and throw away the key, right? Statistically speaking, if released they are going to offend again and wind up right back where they started. Historically, there has been no substantive meaningful effort to engage in anything other than the above. Why? Because there is no desire to do so as long as the financial incentives for incarceration remain. Overpopulation of prisons, spurred by the "War on Drugs" of the 80's led to the privatization of prison systems, which DO a fiscal interest (and duty to shareholders) in keeping beds full... NOT protecting society. There has been an inversely proportionate relationship between crime rates and incarceration rates over the past 30+ years. Crime rates have decreased while incarcerations have increased. Why have incarceration rates increased? Certainly NOT to protect society, but because it is PROFITABLE. Private corporations have not only received federal funds (from taxpayers) for housing inmates but have also "taxed" their labor wages. Essentially double-dipping to create a profit (Princeton Legal Journal). The prisons are benefitting from and exploiting a cheap and readily replenishable labor source, which brings into question ethical concerns involving

Finally, my position (and point of my initial reply) is that the prison system is not this champion and shining beacon of justice that some may presume it to be (and as laid out in #1 and #2 above). The criminal justice system, and the sum of its components (police, prosecutors, judges, etc.) whether through willing volition, acquiescence, or unconscious bias, employs a well-developed and insidious practice of disproportionately targeting minorities which in turn helps fuel the incarceration machine. This goes directly to my statement regarding arrests, prosecutions, and sentencing inequity.

Note: I used frivolous in my original post recklessly and will acknowledge it here (won't delete/edit it)

A couple more relevant sources below (NIH, UN, JAMA):

Mass Incarceration, Race Inequality, and Health: Expanding Concepts and Assessing Impacts on Well-Being
The Drug War, Mass Incarceration and Race
Structural Racism, Mass Incarceration, and Racial and Ethnic Disparities in Severe Maternal Morbidity
 
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alphatrauma

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So you're saying that the 'prison system' (which one exactly?) makes meaningfully more than $43000/year off of an inmate pressing license plates or maintaining irrigation ditches? Sounds like the script came in the morning mail...
Here is a listing
https://www.sentencingproject.org/reports/private-prisons-in-the-united-states/

And another interesting stat regarding inmate growth

https://nicic.gov/weblink/private-prisons-united-states-2021

and more like $350,000,000+ collectively. I usually check my mail late in the evening... post person usually doesn't come around until 3pm-ish
 

E tank

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Here is a listing
https://www.sentencingproject.org/reports/private-prisons-in-the-united-states/

And another interesting stat regarding inmate growth

https://nicic.gov/weblink/private-prisons-united-states-2021

and more like $350,000,000+ collectively. I usually check my mail late in the evening... post person usually doesn't come around until 3pm-ish
8 % (your data) of the total state and federal prison population constitutes a 'system' designed to generate revenue and capitalize off of cheap labor, which in turn provides incentive to keep them full by way of a revolving door mechanism rife with frivolous arrests, prosecutions and inequitable applications of sentencing guidelines'?

Private prisons are there because they do the job for less money than budget strapped state DOC's. Do they do as good a job? Some do and some have programming and rehabilitation as major elements in their mission statements.


No question our country has severe and systemic cultural catastrophes that are feeding the prison systems and those problems have been identified by sociologists and economists for decades. They are not rocket science. Generational fatherlessness leading to dropping out of high school leading to poverty leading to fatherlessness leading to crime/incarceration, which, paradoxically, is the place where many encounter the best chance for education they've ever encountered. And that is in predominantly poor white zip codes.

How do you fix that? Faith based and cultural change initiatives are the only ways that have demonstrably shown benefit.

Short those things, it's either revolving door criminal justice like San Francisco, NY, Chicago, Portland, OR, Seattle WA, LA etc. Or lock 'em up early and often to warehouse the problem. Hanging it all on skin color is racist and devastating to broad swathes of populations in the US and will guarantee it will only get worse.
 

CCCSD

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I would have it no other way...

Let's start off by understanding (and conceding) that my statement you quoted does not directly apply to the case of the Paramedics who were convicted, nor does it attempt to address whether they deserved the guilty verdict and/or did anything wrong.

Now on to the meat and potatoes. My assertion is that the prison systems are not designed to do two things (I'll get to what I purport they are designed to do further along) numbered below:
  1. protect society from those who would cause it harm, and
  2. punish offenders, with the goal of not having them commit the same crime due to these consequences
Why? I'll work backwards from #2. Punishing offenders with the goal of not having them commit the SAME crime seems a bit monolithic, so let's go out on a limb and say that this would also include committing any other crime after being "rehabilitated", and then ideally returning to become a productive member of society. It is widely known, and notated in this National Institue of Health article, that the U.S. has the highest incarceration rate in the world. Additionally, a recidivism study by the Bureau of Justice & Statistics reported that 68% of released prisoners were arrested within 3 years, 79% within 6 years, and 83% within 9 years. This does not align with the "goal" presumption in #2. We have the world's second largest prison population (China #1) effectively moving through a revolving door. The goal of #2 appears to be apathetic or incompetent failure, as the numbers reflect exactly that... poor performance.

Ok, now #1. So how does the prison system protect society from those who would cause it harm? The easy answer is to lock people up and throw away the key, right? Statistically speaking, if released they are going to offend again and wind up right back where they started. Historically, there has been no substantive meaningful effort to engage in anything other than the above. Why? Because there is no desire to do so as long as the financial incentives for incarceration remain. Overpopulation of prisons, spurred by the "War on Drugs" of the 80's led to the privatization of prison systems, which DO a fiscal interest (and duty to shareholders) in keeping beds full... NOT protecting society. There has been an inversely proportionate relationship between crime rates and incarceration rates over the past 30+ years. Crime rates have decreased while incarcerations have increased. Why have incarceration rates increased? Certainly NOT to protect society, but because it is PROFITABLE. Private corporations have not only received federal funds (from taxpayers) for housing inmates but have also "taxed" their labor wages. Essentially double-dipping to create a profit (Princeton Legal Journal). The prisons are benefitting from and exploiting a cheap and readily replenishable labor source, which brings into question ethical concerns involving

Finally, my position (and point of my initial reply) is that the prison system is not this champion and shining beacon of justice that some may presume it to be (and as laid out in #1 and #2 above). The criminal justice system, and the sum of its components (police, prosecutors, judges, etc.) whether through willing volition, acquiescence, or unconscious bias, employs a well-developed and insidious practice of disproportionately targeting minorities which in turn helps fuel the incarceration machine. This goes directly to my statement regarding arrests, prosecutions, and sentencing inequity.

Note: I used frivolous in my original post recklessly and will acknowledge it here (won't delete/edit it)

A couple more relevant sources below (NIH, UN, JAMA):

Mass Incarceration, Race Inequality, and Health: Expanding Concepts and Assessing Impacts on Well-Being
The Drug War, Mass Incarceration and Race
Structural Racism, Mass Incarceration, and Racial and Ethnic Disparities in Severe Maternal Morbidity
Quoting the UN is like using Wiki. Very biased, non factual. See UNWRA if you’re confused. Basing your argument solely on race also shows ignorance. Stating that money is made using inmate (forced) inmate labor is just more ignorant pap.

NIH and JAMA are also biased. See the current flavor of gender reassignment surgery on children, the use of chemicals on children, all in the name of saving them from themselves.

Stick to something you may know.
 
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