Nurse Arrested after Assaulting EMT who Asked Her to "Step Back"

[spinnakr]

In most states, including California, a BAL of 0.06 is not considered above the legal limit and the report did not state how much above 0.06 she was. She was also not charged with public intoxication.

I think it's fairly safe to say that if it took from 10pm to 6am for her BAC to drop below .06, then she was probably drunk. Granted, I'm sure they weren't routinely checking it... But just a thought.

Is it possible the EMT involved could have approached the scene a little differently by doing a smooth take over of CPR from the citizen until ALS arrived?

Without being there this is impossible to answer - but I think it's probably the only question raised in this thread that you could actually improve patient care by answering.

If this nurse was under the influence, she had absolutely no business touching that patient.

I disagree. Provided she was of sound mind (in a functional sense, not necessarily in a legal sense), why shouldn't she help out in this life-threatening situation? It might expose her to some legal liability, but that's her own problem - and I for one won't pass judgement on the nurse for doing it.

HOWEVER, as was said, she needed to back off as soon as she was asked to.

I also must add that discussing this incident, that just happened recently, on an open public forum which now comes up when this topic is googled may not be the wisest especially with the inflammatory statements and the "first hand insider info". The EMT and the FD are not making statements for a reason and to have someone make comments for them may not make things go well either.

Wise advice.

Heck she didn't even have to be drinking. The moment she was asked to step back, she had a legal obligation to step back or shed be interfering at the scene of an emergency. Every place I know, that's an arrestable offense.

So whether or not she hit the EMT is a moot point. If she was asked to step back and didn't, she's in the wrong. Every single time.

This for me is key. While there are two sides to every story, and the responders' conduct might not have been perfect either, I think for this reason, she was at least partially in the wrong.

But I also don't think we have any business speculating about fault in a public forum on a potentially open legal case.

 

[Akulahawk]

Well, how about... using the information contained in the news article, I entered her name into the RN and LVN online verification systems... and it appears that she does have an RN license, and that license is in "Inactive" status. She has not met the CE requirements as of today. Her license will expire in a few months. The BRN hasn't (so far) released any info as to whether or not she's under discipline.

In any event, she may not practice as an RN in California until she renews her license. Because her license is inactive, she couldn't have supplied current ID as an RN. I'd have had to handle that situation as if she was just another bystander.

 

[firecoins]

Interesting case.

First of all anyone with "insider accounts" should not speak with pending litigation might you get someone in trouble.

Second, the nurse was in the right to provide first aid prior to arrival.

Third, the nurse should have moved aside and allowed EMS to take over.

Her being drunk was probably 1 of many factors.

Being an RN might be factor as they think they should control a scene. How many off duty EMS providers would start to command on call providers? Probably happens more often and EMS providers should know better.

 

[VentMedic]

I think it's fairly safe to say that if it took from 10pm to 6am for her BAC to drop below .06, then she was probably drunk. Granted, I'm sure they weren't routinely checking it... But just a thought.

One also has to consider she is 60 y/o and at that age, alcohol may not metabolize through the body as it did when she was 21.

Well, how about... using the information contained in the news article, I entered her name into the RN and LVN online verification systems... and it appears that she does have an RN license, and that license is in "Inactive" status. She has not met the CE requirements as of today. Her license will expire in a few months. The BRN hasn't (so far) released any info as to whether or not she's under discipline.

In any event, she may not practice as an RN in California until she renews her license. Because her license is inactive, she couldn't have supplied current ID as an RN. I'd have had to handle that situation as if she was just another bystander.

What does it matter to you if she was a nurse or not? She was acting as a citizen doing CPR. According to the article she DID NOT do any ALS procedures like start an IV or cut the person's throat open. She is close to retirement age and some people are referred to by their life's occupation regardless of how current their license is.

Being an RN might be factor as they think they should control a scene. How many off duty EMS providers would start to command on call providers? Probably happens more often and EMS providers should know better.

Being this was a volunteer FD, we do not know (but Mountain Res-Q will probably enlighten us) how they were dressed, when they last shaved or even if they had also been "celebrating" New Year's when they got the call. While I do not agree with drinking while being on call, some volunteer FDs are very lax in that respect. In that location in California, who knows what might be acceptable out there. There have been some volunteers (and some paid) that have showed up at scene who I would be very reluctant to allow them to touch any member of my family until I ran their EMT(P) license through the state and got confirmation that they belonged to the picture on their DL especially knowing how many whacker nuts have tricked out POVs with enough supplies to stock two ambulances while being affiliated with no agency.

Of course, I can also give them the benefit of the doubt that they were clean shaving, sober and in a neatly pressed uniform with polished shoes. If no charges were filed, the nurse (former or whatever) did good citizen CPR and ALS arrived for ROSC with the patient having a good outcome, why all the bashing? Scenes will not always be perfect and there will be different point of views each time from everyone involved. EMS agencies, even at the FR and EMT level, should regularly have their calls reviewed by the Medical Director with all member present to see if everyone is in agreement that all calls were done perfectly.

Since this incident also occurred in a small town or village (population less the 2000) with relatively few calls, this may have been blown out of proportion and one who works in a big city dealing daily with chaos or crowds might view this as a minor nuisance and blow it off.

But again, none of us were there.

 

[Akulahawk]

Snip...
What does it matter to you if she was a nurse or not? She was acting as a citizen doing CPR. According to the article she DID NOT do any ALS procedures like start an IV or cut the person's throat open. She is close to retirement age and some people are referred to by their life's occupation regardless of how current their license is.

...Big Snip...

But again, none of us were there.

I don't care that she's acting as a citizen doing CPR. That's not the problem. It's actually commendable. What followed, once the on-duty personnel arrived is the problem. Since she WAS an active RN, and now she ISN'T, she should have known that she should have acted as a citizen and not gotten in the way of the on-duty personnel. Instead, somehow, things escalated and resulted in her being arrested for battery upon a Firefighter. (PC 242/243) That's a misdemeanor, and since a LEO didn't witness it, a private person's arrest had to have been made to take her into custody. A LEO can refuse to take custody, but didn't... so there quite likely had been some Probable Cause present, but the LEO couldn't have taken her into custody without the private person's arrest... yes, I know about this stuff, but not the details of this case.

Personally, I think she is VERY lucky that the DA's office dropped charges.

 

[VentMedic]

I don't care that she's acting as a citizen doing CPR. That's not the problem. It's actually commendable. What followed, once the on-duty personnel arrived is the problem. Since she WAS an active RN, and now she ISN'T, she should have known that she should have acted as a citizen and not gotten in the way of the on-duty personnel. Instead, somehow, things escalated and resulted in her being arrested for battery upon a Firefighter. (PC 242/243) That's a misdemeanor, and since a LEO didn't witness it, a private person's arrest had to have been made to take her into custody. A LEO can refuse to take custody, but didn't... so there quite likely had been some Probable Cause present, but the LEO couldn't have taken her into custody without the private person's arrest... yes, I know about this stuff, but not the details of this case.

Personally, I think she is VERY lucky that the DA's office dropped charges.

The title of this thread was made up by Mountain Res-Q.

This was his title based on hearsay from the FD.
Nurse Arrested after Assaulting EMT who Asked Her to "Step Back"

The article stated:

reportedly interfering with an emergency medical technician.

Interfering is a broad term but it did not state she was arrested for assaulting or for battery.

She was NOT charged with drunkenness or battery or misdemeanor or anything.

If this is true:

Ohlott said the EMT shoved her aside while saying, “Get out of my way, ma’am, and let me do my job.”

Do you shove someone doing CPR out of the way? Do you tell someone doing CPR to "Get out of my way"? Do you consider that to be a proper approach for a citizen who is doing CPR? Is that how you treat people?

“We concluded that it is equitable not to file charges in the interests of justice,” said Deputy District Attorney John Hansen, who not only reviewed a Sheriff’s Office report on the Dec. 31 incident, but had his own investigator question all participants and witnesses.

Is it possible the DA heard both sides of the story which we, including you, have not?

Have you never heard of a minor incident turning into a colossal story of horror before the shift is over? Everyone has their version of what happened which mutates each time it is told and by the time it gets stated to the proper authorities, fact and fiction run together. A good investigator can easily pick that up. It is no different than when someone starts a thread based on hearsay and after 3 pages, some try to make this nurse out to be a very evil drunk.

 

[Shishkabob]

When a DA decides to not pursue charges, it means nothing more then they don't want to waste their time. It has nothing to do with guilt or innocence.


Just because she isn't being taken to court is not proof positive of her innocence.

 

[Mountain Res-Q]

3 Things:

1. This happened on New Years. I heard about it immediately. I did not immediately post on it because the case was active. However, once the charges were dropped, I posted. Also, nothing I have said was confidential. Because I know and have talked with FFs, Medics, and LEOs in the know, I have the same information revealed to the media and available to the public, but I have not filtered it to make a good story that sales papers. The reason the EMT is not speaking out is because the Fire District has no reason to justify anything that is said negative about them. The charges are dropped. In their mind, the case is closed; they did their job and can be proud of that fact that while others were in need on New Years, they were in a possition to be the real ones that gave the patient a fighting chance.

2. This is not my interpretation or just one side. The FACTS come from Fire, EMS, LEOs, and bystanders ON SCENE. If you want to take the word of an intoxiacated bystander over the Professional Responders, fine... but even her story is in line with the EMT's... the only differnece is that she leaves out the part where she impeaded patient care.

3. The Fire District (which serves 3 mountain communities and provides mutual aid to 75% of the county) is paid/volunteer. The EMT was paid. This District is very professional; shaven, sober, and in BDU's and District Issued Nomex Jackets. Everyone here should know my adversion for Fire working EMS, but I can say that I respect the District FF's on this call. Also, it should be noted that a second Engine (a State CALFIRE) Engine was on scene within 3 minutes of the assault, so it is not as if the "Volunteers" were a couple drunk hillbillies playing around. Ambulance was on scene a few minutes latter with a Medic that I likewise respect. You don't know them. I do. I trust them and the LEO's that I also work with.

 

[alphatrauma]

Everyone has their version of what happened which mutates each time it is told...

I couldn't agree more

There is what we want to hear, what we choose to believe... and then there's the truth.

My personal opinion:

- There are only two activities one should engage in while under the influence. Sex and sleep... in that order.

I just think it's bad business, and a huge liability risk to be initiating patient care/BLS or whatever, after drinking.

 

[Sasha]

The charges are dropped. In their mind, the case is closed; they did their job and can be proud of that fact that while others were in need on New Years, they were in a possition to be the real ones that gave the patient a fighting chance.

So the bystander CPR that kept the patient circulating until EMS arrived had nothing to do with it?

To me, where it says the EMT shoved the nurse, is also battery. I have never been nicely and politely shoved.

 

[Mountain Res-Q]

So the bystander CPR that kept the patient circulating until EMS arrived had nothing to do with it?

To me, where it says the EMT shoved the nurse, is also battery. I have never been nicely and politely shoved.

What part of "respiratory arrest... had a pulse" was not understood? Last time I checked you do not do compressions on someone with a pulse. That pulse might also be the reason why compressions were not continued by First Response or Medics... hence, a valid reason for the actual Medical Providers with a Duty to Act NEEDED to get to the patient rather than allow a Lay Person to dictate the course of Patient Care.

The next time an intoxicated bystander gets in the way of patient care and refuses to allow you to even get in close enough to evaluate an apparent arrest, ask yourself how far the "Please step aside" terminology continues before you are forced to do what is needed to do your job of being the actual life saver. I know we are teaching lay people to not check for a pulse anymore; but if she was once a RN, shouldn't she have checked correctly? Yet another reason why maybe a lowely EMT should have "pushed" his way in to care for the patient when they NEEDED REAL care?

 

[VentMedic]

What part of "respiratory arrest... had a pulse" was not understood? Last time I checked you do not do compressions on someone with a pulse. That pulse might also be the reason why compressions were not continued by First Response or Medics... hence, a valid reason for the actual Medical Providers with a Duty to Act NEEDED to get to the patient rather than allow a Lay Person to dictate the course of Patient Care.

The next time an intoxicated bystander gets in the way of patient care and refuses to allow you to even get in close enough to evaluate an apparent arrest, ask yourself how far the "Please step aside" terminology continues before you are forced to do what is needed to do your job of being the actual life saver. I know we are teaching lay people to not check for a pulse anymore; but if she was once a RN, shouldn't she have checked correctly? Yet another reason why maybe a lowely EMT should have "pushed" his way in to care for the patient when they NEEDED REAL care?

You are really bent on bashing this nurse starting with your very first post and that includes the title you made up. Is this personal? Do you know this nurse or former nurse? Do you feel you must achieve some type of revenge for the FD since they are not talking public ally about it because the charges were dropped? Have you taken it upon yourself to seek revenge and ruin this former nurse's reputation?

What else can an EMT do besides CPR? Do you not know how to follow a few simple guidelines outlined in a CPR class to assume care for CPR being done by a citizen? Pushing citizens out of the way who are doing CPR is not part of the guidelines.

There is no way anyone could ever look at this situation objectively with the negative posts you have made against this nurse who cleared the airway (yes it supposedly started with "choking") and initiated CPR. Do you understand the importance of clearing an airway quickly and the importance of bystander initiated CPR?

Are you upset because the nurse is considered to have been part of saving this woman's life and you feel all the attention should go to the "heroes" at the FD? Is this how they feel also?

Let us look at your first post again:

Nurse Arrested after Assaulting EMT who Asked Her to "Step Back"

Though I would post this and get everyone's opinion. This is local. Happened on New Years Eve. I have first hand insider info as I know one of the the Responders involved. Obviously, as always, the report is inaccurate, but here are the basics:

The patient's true medical condition was more than just a simple choking and arrest. This off duty nurse who never provided evidence to the responders on scene that she was an RN was intoxicated (barely) and was performing emergency care in keeping with what she thought was appropriate. Fire First Responders (an EMT and a MFR) arrived on scene and took over. Nurse was in the way and was hindering the FF's ability to properly assess and treat (they were both experienced and equipped for this). FF's repeatedly made it clear that the nurse was no longer needed; that she needed to step back and allow them to do their jobs, but the nurse continued to get in the way and even made a few rude remarks about the EMT. At this point the EMT had to physically push the nurse aside in order to gain access to the patient and do his job, saying, “Get out of my way, ma’am, and let me do my job.” Then the nurse hit the EMT across the face and "ran away" and out of sight of the EMT. The EMT requested LE and continued to do his job. LEOs arrived on scene and had to search for the nurse, who made an attempt hide from the LEOs. She was arrested for 241b, "assault on peace officer, firefighter, EMT, etc..." She was found to have a BAC of .06. Charges were dropped by the DA and now the Nurse wants to go after the Fire District because in her mind she was right and the EMT was wrong.

Oh, and for the record, contrary to the report, the Nurse did not save the woman. There was no spontaneous revival in an 80 y/o. Medics worked on the patient for some time and it was a code 3 transport, during which she was still not breathing adequately on her own.

Thoughts?

IMHO: She was intoxicated. She never provided proof of who she was. She was not equipped to provided care past mouth to mouth. She had no legal authority to assume control over EMS. She was hindering patient care. The EMT had the legal resposibility to provide care and maintain control over the scene. The nurse further hindered patient care by assaulting an EMT. Hmmm... Charge her and throw the book at her.

Did it ever occur to you that she didn't identify herself as a nurse because her license is expired and she is now a citizen doing CPR?

With all the FFs and restaurant patrons standing around, why did this one EMT have to call LE? Didn't anyone else notice what was going on or think it was serious enough to call the police?

You seem to want people to side with you for what? Are you trying to get this lady arrested again? Do you want to run her out of town?

If the FD is letting it go, provided they are not putting you up to doing these posts, why are you still so hell bent on ruining this citizen's reputation after the charges have been dropped? This seems to be a little more than "what would you do if someone hindered you" question.

It is one thing to critique a random article but to purposely bash someone that you know personally or with a known identity and location to you with "insider info", especially in a very small town, on a public forum is crossing a very fine line of professional and ethical behavior.

 

[spinnakr]

I know we are teaching lay people to not check for a pulse anymore;

News to me. Not to be blunt or anything, but citation please?

 

[firecoins]

What else can an EMT do besides CPR?

What else can a nurse do besides CPR? And would this differ being off duty? She is not going to do a surgical airway.

There is no way anyone could ever look at this situation objectively with the negative posts you have made against this nurse who cleared the airway (yes it supposedly started with "choking") and initiated CPR. Do you understand the importance of clearing an airway quickly and the importance of bystander initiated CPR?

If this is what the nurse did, thats great. However once the EMS crew arrives, she does need to back down.

If the FD is letting it go, provided they are not putting you up to doing these posts, why are you still so hell bent on ruining this citizen's reputation after the charges have been dropped? This seems to be a little more than "what would you do if someone hindered you" question.

The article seems to indicate that the nurse is not letting it go either. The article she is probably doing some bashing of the FD/EMS system herself. It quotes her as saying she won't let this go.

 

[VentMedic]

What else can a nurse do besides CPR? And would this differ being off duty? She is not going to do a surgical airway.

Who said she did any advanced procedure?

If this is what the nurse did, thats great. However once the EMS crew arrives, she does need to back down.

No one here was there to see what actually happened.

The article seems to indicate that the nurse is not letting it go either. The article she is probably doing some bashing of the FD/EMS system herself. It quotes her as saying she won't let this go.

Do you think it is going to help matters if members of this FD or its representative continue to bash her? I wonder if these same remarks made by Mountain Res-Q aren't being said all over town by him and his FF friends as well. Also, when this lady reads this thread, do you think she'll want to let it go then? Some pretty strong statements have been made against her here by someone who knows her and has the "insider info". Again, this is not an anonymous article with anonymous poster initiating the thread.

 

[Shishkabob]

News to me. Not to be blunt or anything, but citation please?

I've learned that in every BCLS, ACLS and PALS class I've taken.



And directly from the AHA themselves;

http://circ.ahajournals.org/cgi/content/full/102/suppl_1/I-22

Lay rescuers will no longer be taught or expected to perform a pulse check.

 

[JPINFV]

News to me. Not to be blunt or anything, but citation please?

Differences in CPR for Lay Rescuers and Healthcare Providers

Differences between lay rescuer and healthcare provider CPR skills include the following

• 
  *Lay rescuers should immediately begin cycles of chest compressions and ventilations after delivering 2 rescue breaths for an unresponsive victim. Lay rescuers are not taught to assess for pulse or signs of circulation for an unresponsive victim.
  *Lay rescuers will not be taught to provide rescue breathing without chest compressions.

- http://circ.ahajournals.org/cgi/reprint/112/24_suppl/IV-12.pdf


edit: Sniped by Linuss.

 

[Shishkabob]

I'm sneaky.

 

[firecoins]

Who said she did any advanced procedure?

You seem to indicate thats all EMTs can do which begs the question of what you expect the RN to do.

No one here was there to see what actually happened.

That is the point of the whole story. Her accussed interference with the responding EMS crew. That is why she was arrested to begin with. She was not arrested for doing CPR. She was not arrested for clearing the airway. She was not arrested for doing compressions on a guy with a pulse. She was not arrested for having a BAC of .06. She was not arrested for being an RN and ex RN or a civilian. In fact, if she had not been arrested we would not be talking about this.

Do you think it is going to help matters if members of this FD or its representative continue to bash her?

She is being bashed for her supposed interferance. If she wasn't accused of interfering we wouldn't be talking about it.

I wonder if these same remarks made by Mountain Res-Q aren't being said all over town by him and his FF friends as well.

they probably are.

Also, when this lady reads this thread, do you think she'll want to let it go then?

She already said she won't let it go so what difference does it make. If its true, I don't think the FD should let it go either.

 

[VentMedic]

You seem to indicate thats all EMTs can do which begs the question of what you expect the RN to do. [/quote}

Why are you saying the RN was doing more than she should? Any citizen can become capable of CPR? She did not start an IV, do a cric or heart surgery.

That is the point of the whole story. Her accussed interference with the responding EMS crew. That is why she was arrested to begin with. She was not arrested for doing CPR. She was not arrested for clearing the airway. She was not arrested for doing compressions on a guy with a pulse. She was not arrested for having a BAC of .06. She was not arrested for being an RN and ex RN or a civilian. In fact, if she had not been arrested we would not be talking about this.

An no charges were filed. What part of that did you miss?

She is being bashed for her supposed interferance. If she wasn't accused of interfering we wouldn't be talking about it.

Again, no charges were filed and it made headlines in a small town newspaper. It didn't even make the EMS newswires. If Mountain Res-Q didn't have a vendetta against this person, none of use would have heard about it.

She already said she won't let it go so what difference does it make. If its true, I don't think the FD should let it go either.

Again, no one on this forum knows the entire story and that probably includes Mountain Res-Q as well. Isn't it possible that the DA learned a few things that the egos of the FFs didn't want to be made public? They may not have even told Mountain Res-Q the entire story either or by the time they got back to the station this story had escalated and mutated into a colossal nurse bash just as other EMS tales go when they feel they didn't get recognized for their "save".

If the DA doesn't want to press charges what do you propose? Vigilante justice and an act of violence against this 60 y/o former nurse by the EMT and the FFs?