Nurse Arrested after Assaulting EMT who Asked Her to "Step Back"

[spinnakr]

I've learned that in every BCLS, ACLS and PALS class I've taken.



And directly from the AHA themselves;

http://circ.ahajournals.org/cgi/content/full/102/suppl_1/I-22

Interesting. I'm surprised. Why is this? Aren't we worried about injuries due to needless CPR?

For the record, this is not true of Red Cross. I realize that red cross means close-to-nothing in the health provider field, but since we're talking about layperson CPR, it bears mentioning. I cannot find a citation, but I had to take a Red Cross CPR course roughly a year ago, and their official curriculum still taught it. (Then I subsequently took AHA for healthcare...) Also, I suspect that more laypersons are trained by the ARC than the AHA, although this is PURELY speculation.

As for the original topic... can we all agree that there are probably two sides to this story, and leave it at that? As far as I'm concerned, anything else is purely speculative; as much as I think that, given the reported conduct of the nurse, I think she should be charged with obstruction of EMS personnel, this report may not be accurate. Since I wasn't there, I simply don't know. The only people who could attest to this are the civvie witnesses, and we don't have a single bystander statement to work from.

 

[Seaglass]

Interesting. I'm surprised. Why is this? Aren't we worried about injuries due to needless CPR?

I'm curious too. Could it be because they tend to check with their thumbs and fail to recognize pulselessness? I've noticed a lot of first-time CPR students doing that.

 

[JPINFV]

Basically AHA was finding that lay rescuers were taking too long to check a pulse and were often incorrect in their assessment. On the cost:benefits ratio, the cost of doing compressions on a patient who is simply not breathing is far outweighed by the benefit of doing CPR on a patient in cardiac arrest.

 

[VentMedic]

From the number of mispronounced deaths in the field, it seems some EMS providers aren't much better at finding a pulse.

 

[JPINFV]

From the number of mispronounced deaths in the field, it seems some EMS providers aren't much better at finding a pulse.

I guess we need a CPR for physicians (maybe the AOA can devise an osteopathic CPR routine even), CPR for RNs, CPR for RTs, CPR for [insert allied health title here], and CPR for the community certification then. That way each group gets to be special!

 

[CAOX3]

I actually took an EMD class and pre-arrival instructions for a patient not breathing you do not have the caller check for a pulse before initiating CPR. Its easier to have a layperson determine breathing status then having them hunt for a pulse, I guess their playing the percentages of most people who are not breathing probably wont have a pulse or at least not for long.

As far as who was at fault, who knows. I know in my area if you lay your hands on any public safety officer you go to the clink and they dont drop the charges. They make an example out of you, as they should.

 

[firecoins]

An no charges were filed. What part of that did you miss?

According to the article charges were filed and dropped. Charges being dropped is not proof that there was not an issue with interfearence with an EMS crew.

I was recently pulled for speeding. The officer never wrote me a ticket. I was still speeding. It wasn't proven in a court of law. I am sure the officer had a solid case.

Again, no charges were filed and it made headlines in a small town newspaper. It didn't even make the EMS newswires. If Mountain Res-Q didn't have a vendetta against this person, none of use would have heard about it.

Yes small towns have news. Its amazing. Nothing happens unless its in an EMS magazine. <_<

 

[Seaglass]

From the number of mispronounced deaths in the field, it seems some EMS providers aren't much better at finding a pulse.

Wouldn't surprise me. I recently got reamed by my training officer for auscultating for an apical pulse after a scenario pt appeared to code. My defense were that our protocols say so, that I wasn't wasting time because I was also listening and feeling for breath, and that my hands sometimes shake when I get extremely tired and stressed. Could that be mistaken for a pulse? I've never found out, but I'm pretty sure it could...

 

[VentMedic]

Yes small towns have news. Its amazing. Nothing happens unless its in an EMS magazine. <_<

If we were to put every incident that happened in EMS on the front page of a newspaper or even the entire paper, there would be little room any other news. Did you happen to see the EMS news wire lately? There's a GA Paramedic accused of rape. An ambulance in Massachusetts blew a red light without the siren on and hit a car injuring its driver. A NC Paramedic was arrested for drug possession.

This article in CA at least had a good patient outcome and it is a shame that the FD can't be the bigger advocate for a peaceful resolution instead on going on a public bash campaign against the former nurse.

 

[Mountain Res-Q]

So, I posted an EMS related article, as many do here, and somehow, I have a grudge against a person I do not even know? LOL... whatever. The facts are the facts. RN or not, she interfered with patient care by refusing to step back when EMS arrived. I have no beef with her other than the fact that I HATE the fact that while charges where dropped on her (not agreeing with that, but whatever) she seems bent on attacking the FD because she disagrees (despite being intoxicated and providing improper medical care) with everyone’s version of the facts, including Fire, Deputies, and the Sheriff. I posted this story as an "EMS Related Story" just as others do often and posted the actual details that are left out by the Media. My opinions are also my own, but I do believe that if an Off Duty EMT was the one that was providing inadequate care and then refused to move out of the way when EMS arrived, the amount of Whacker Attacks and horror over the under-educated "super hero" EMTs in the world would be great, especially from some of the burnout "educators" here. Again... whatever... I was interested to see if being a RN (or former) would influence peoples thoughts on this... Interesting results I must say. Oh, and when, in all my posts was the idea that I view the FD as "Heroes" picked up? LOL... please... I make fun of one of the FFs involved everyday for being a FF (in good fun)... doesn't mean I don't respect my fellow responders as long as they earn it...

spinnakr, ARC guidelines are drawn directly from AHA. Trust me, I teach ARC Lay Responder CPR... No pulse checks. ABC's consist of Airway, Breathing, Signs of Life. The only time pulses are checked now are in infants for Lay Responders. For Professional Rescuer (or Health Care Provider) CPR, Pulses are still checked (at least until it is discovered that like the Public, EMTs can't find a pulse either ). I believe the point here was that an RN is required to have CPRO (or similar) and should know how to check a pulse... otherwise, she is a Lay Person... regardless... "Thank You Ma'am... we'll take over." At that point I would step aside, and in similar situations, I have (as we all would). Even this lowly EMT knows enough to know when to step aside, pat myself on the back, and let the Legally Charged Responders step in... something the Exalted RN's might not know... hmmm... <_<

Oh, and how is the FD "bashing" the former RN? They cooperated with the Sheriff's Office, DA, and the Chief spoke to the Media and stated the facts of the incident when asked. It is the former RN that is on the warpath to slay the "evil" underfunded FD... My "bashing" (opinion that he RN should have faced the charges) is that from a a concerned member of the local EMS community.

 

[VentMedic]

This was your first post and you made it very personal as well as giving out patient information that was not released quite possibly due to privacy reasons and out of respect for the patient. This should also be a lesson for those who like to talk about your patients with others. Be careful as it could end up in the wrong ears.

You also had incorrect information in that the "nurse" did not identify herself as a nurse. She was correct not to if she no longer held a current license.

Though I would post this and get everyone's opinion. This is local. Happened on New Years Eve. I have first hand insider info as I know one of the the Responders involved. Obviously, as always, the report is inaccurate, but here are the basics:

The patient's true medical condition was more than just a simple choking and arrest. This off duty nurse who never provided evidence to the responders on scene that she was an RN was intoxicated (barely) and was performing emergency care in keeping with what she thought was appropriate.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

IMHO: She was intoxicated. She never provided proof of who she was. She was not equipped to provided care past mouth to mouth. She had no legal authority to assume control over EMS. She was hindering patient care. The EMT had the legal resposibility to provide care and maintain control over the scene. The nurse further hindered patient care by assaulting an EMT. Hmmm... Charge her and throw the book at her.

Let me repeat this:

This article in CA at least had a good patient outcome and it is a shame that the FD can't be the bigger advocate for a peaceful resolution instead on going on a public bash campaign against the former nurse. I say the FD because they gave you all the "insider information" for your thread on this forum.

 

[spinnakr]

spinnakr, ARC guidelines are drawn directly from AHA. Trust me, I teach ARC Lay Responder CPR...

Well first, this is an appeal to authority - a logical fallacy - and frankly, you're a semi-anonymous online personality. Therefore, I don't trust you. I'm far too much of a skeptic to do something like that.

Second, I'm telling you: 1 year ago, I was instructed by the ARC, in a layperson capacity, to check pulse. It is possible that this wasn't to ARC guidelines; however, if it weren't, then another problem is raised - different instructors are teaching different things.

Third, can we all just let it go? I'm pretty sure that everything that can be said on the matter has been, and everything left to say is simply for emotional effect or personal gratification.

 

[Mountain Res-Q]

Well first, this is an appeal to authority - a logical fallacy - and frankly, you're a semi-anonymous online personality. Therefore, I don't trust you. I'm far too much of a skeptic to do something like that.

Second, I'm telling you: 1 year ago, I was instructed by the ARC, in a layperson capacity, to check pulse. It is possible that this wasn't to ARC guidelines; however, if it weren't, then another problem is raised - different instructors are teaching different things.

Third, can we all just let it go? I'm pretty sure that everything that can be said on the matter has been, and everything left to say is simply for emotional effect or personal gratification.

First... fine... don't trust me... trust the ARC, which produce those nice Instructor Manuals that I have right here... Frankly, based on your posts, I don't trust you either... big deal, I am sure we will both deal with that pain...

Second, I am telling you, Pulse Checks have not been taught in close to 5 years in Lay Person... so, ya, I would question that Instructor who is required (if they are actual ARC Instructors) to teach by ARC Guidlines or lose their Instructor Authorization.

Third, Let what go? You asked a question that was based on my post; a question that said, "You do not know what you are talking about when it comes to pulse checks." So I responded, as did others... Chill man... seriously...

 

[MedicSqrl]

 

[rescue99]

Well first, this is an appeal to authority - a logical fallacy - and frankly, you're a semi-anonymous online personality. Therefore, I don't trust you. I'm far too much of a skeptic to do something like that.

Second, I'm telling you: 1 year ago, I was instructed by the ARC, in a layperson capacity, to check pulse. It is possible that this wasn't to ARC guidelines; however, if it weren't, then another problem is raised - different instructors are teaching different things.

Third, can we all just let it go? I'm pretty sure that everything that can be said on the matter has been, and everything left to say is simply for emotional effect or personal gratification.

You were instructed wrong by an instructor who perhaps didn't agree or just didn't keep up. Layperson pulse checks went out in 05. The CPR guidelines we follow are those recommended by the WHO (world health organization, not an old 70's band!) and other evidence based entities. ARC has to follow the same guidelines as AHA, ASHI, ESCI and everyone else.

Not sure it really matters. It (the situation) was a bit out of hand. Good thing the patient wasn't lost in the scuffle. Letting it go sounds reasonable.

 

[greenmountains]

"Is the scene safe?" is supposed to be the first question asked in each section of the practical. If it isn't you are supposed to stand back and not contribute another body to be dealt with...your own.
The scene wasn't safe, obviously.

 

[SandpitMedic]

I love time travel.

We hit 88 miles per hour on this one!

 

[Summit]

 

[JPINFV]

"Is the scene safe?" is supposed to be the first question asked in each section of the practical. If it isn't you are supposed to stand back and not contribute another body to be dealt with...your own.
The scene wasn't safe, obviously.

Yep... if there's anyone in the way, you don't even ask them to move, you just stand back. Remind me again, which fantasy land do you work in?

 

[greenmountains]

Yep... if there's anyone in the way, you don't even ask them to move, you just stand back. Remind me again, which fantasy land do you work in?

A world in which I would get fired for having to push aside a drunk to aid a patient. She was apparently told to stand aside and did not. Done.
Standing orders: call the freaking police. Done.
I would not even get workman's comp for an injury when I ignored danger.

Get yourself a gun...or a clue...or some dignity.