Nurse Arrested after Assaulting EMT who Asked Her to "Step Back"

[Mountain Res-Q]

http://www.uniondemocrat.com/201001...o-charges-filed-against-nurse-who-saved-woman

Though I would post this and get everyone's opinion. This is local. Happened on New Years Eve. I have first hand insider info as I know one of the the Responders involved. Obviously, as always, the report is inaccurate, but here are the basics:

The patient's true medical condition was more than just a simple choking and arrest. This off duty nurse who never provided evidence to the responders on scene that she was an RN was intoxicated (barely) and was performing emergency care in keeping with what she thought was appropriate. Fire First Responders (an EMT and a MFR) arrived on scene and took over. Nurse was in the way and was hindering the FF's ability to properly assess and treat (they were both experienced and equipped for this). FF's repeatedly made it clear that the nurse was no longer needed; that she needed to step back and allow them to do their jobs, but the nurse continued to get in the way and even made a few rude remarks about the EMT. At this point the EMT had to physically push the nurse aside in order to gain access to the patient and do his job, saying, “Get out of my way, ma’am, and let me do my job.” Then the nurse hit the EMT across the face and "ran away" and out of sight of the EMT. The EMT requested LE and continued to do his job. LEOs arrived on scene and had to search for the nurse, who made an attempt hide from the LEOs. She was arrested for 241b, "assault on peace officer, firefighter, EMT, etc..." She was found to have a BAC of .06. Charges were dropped by the DA and now the Nurse wants to go after the Fire District because in her mind she was right and the EMT was wrong.

Oh, and for the record, contrary to the report, the Nurse did not save the woman. There was no spontaneous revival in an 80 y/o. Medics worked on the patient for some time and it was a code 3 transport, during which she was still not breathing adequately on her own.

Thoughts?

IMHO: She was intoxicated. She never provided proof of who she was. She was not equipped to provided care past mouth to mouth. She had no legal authority to assume control over EMS. She was hindering patient care. The EMT had the legal resposibility to provide care and maintain control over the scene. The nurse further hindered patient care by assaulting an EMT. Hmmm... Charge her and throw the book at her.

 

[CAOX3]

Agreed.

If information is correct throw the book at her.

Just because she s a nurse she gets leniency in assaulting an EMT?

 

[VentMedic]

You weren't there.

Your "facts" are heresay.

Your "facts" come from only one side.

The more times a story gets repeated the more distorted it becomes especially when egos and feelings are hurt.

The DA reviewed the case and dropped it.

If there had been an assault on the EMT, charges would have been filed especially if there had been witnesses.

For an 80 y/o to have survived without any neuro deficits, there had to have been some decent airway and circulation maintenance achieved early. This seems to have occurred dispite the peeing match happening on scene.

Oh, and for the record, contrary to the report, the Nurse did not save the woman. There was no spontaneous revival in an 80 y/o.

Credit was given to the EMTs for saving the woman's life. Citizen initiated CPR also played a role. Maybe the EMTs would have preferred the patient had died so they could make their case stronger against the nurse.

 

[alphatrauma]

forgive my cynicism

You weren't there.

and neither were you

The DA reviewed the case and dropped it.

If there had been an assault on the EMT, charges would have been filed especially if there had been witnesses.

And we all know how perfect and consistent the criminal justice system is

If this nurse was under the influence, she had absolutely no business touching that patient. If the EMT lied about the battery, then he should be prosecuted for filing a false police report. The one good thing to come of this, is that the patient had a positive outcome... regardless of to whom thanks is due

 

[VentMedic]

and neither were you

I never stated that I was and I did not start this thread with the accusations against the nurse.

And we all know how perfect and consistent the criminal justice system is

If this nurse was under the influence, she had absolutely no business touching that patient. If the EMT lied about the battery, then he should be prosecuted for filing a false police report. The one good thing to come of this, is that the patient had a positive outcome... regardless of to whom thanks is due

In most states, including California, a BAL of 0.06 is not considered above the legal limit and the report did not state how much above 0.06 she was. She was also not charged with public intoxication. Thus, it would be difficult to ignor a choking person in the same room if you are considered sober. Why the double standard? She may not have identified herself an a nurse which is exactly the same advice given to an EMT on this forum who provided assistance while drinking at a bar. The incident involving the nurse occurred at a restaurant with food being served and in California, many do consume alcohol with their meals especially wine which can have a alcohol content of 15%. However, regardless of the location, if I come across an MVC or medical incident while off duty, I don't shout out my credentials either. The nurse did not do advanced treatment of any type and did what a lay person could do for this patient. CPR is also what a FR or EMT would only be able to do in this situation in California.

In any situation similar to this, how long would you stop CPR? Wouldn't it also be wise for those responding to get organized and have someone take over CPR rather than just stopping altogether for a few minutes? Whenever I have approached a scene with citizen CPR in progress, I do not just shove that person off or tell them to get lost. Their efforts are definitely of value. I assess the scene and then have someone take over just like it is taught in CPR classes. Uninterrupted CPR is now stressed in the guidelines and that nurse may have known this. Is it possible the EMT involved could have approached the scene a little differently by doing a smooth take over of CPR from the citizen until ALS arrived?

 

[VentMedic]

I also must add that discussing this incident, that just happened recently, on an open public forum which now comes up when this topic is googled may not be the wisest especially with the inflammatory statements and the "first hand insider info". The EMT and the FD are not making statements for a reason and to have someone make comments for them may not make things go well either.

 

[rescue99]

The choking victim is alive through the combined efforts of both EMT's and the by stander but, the by stander needed to step back. She was intoxicated. If this went before a judge, the by stander would likely lose. Her intoxicated state might come back to bite her in the tush. Fire is being much more professional about the whole thing IMO.

 

[LondonMedic]

The choking victim is alive through the combined efforts of both EMT's and the by stander but, the by stander needed to step back. She was intoxicated. If this went before a judge, the by stander would likely lose. Her intoxicated state might come back to bite her in the tush. Fire is being much more professional about the whole thing IMO.

Was she? Not only do we not know the actual EtOH level, we don't know how incapacitated she was. Nor do we know if she was actually wrong. We don't even know if the EMT hit her first.

 

[Shishkabob]

Heck she didn't even have to be drinking. The moment she was asked to step back, she had a legal obligation to step back or shed be interfering at the scene of an emergency. Every place I know, that's an arrestable offense.

So whether or not she hit the EMT is a moot point. If she was asked to step back and didn't, she's in the wrong. Every single time.

 

[rescue99]

"We" read the atiicle which reported the police account of her ETOH level. The fact is, she was held until her level dropped so yeah, she was intoxicated. Wittness accounts has her being difficult and has her striking the EMT who had to finally moved her to gain access to the victim. Whatever help she was, the obnoxious woman, which is typical of many drunks, was an idiot. So much for being humble, eh?

 

[Aidey]

We just had a problem similar to this the other day. An intoxicated male got into a fight outside of a bar, tripped over the curb, and dislocated his ankle. A woman who identified herself as a nurse and appeared intoxicated kept trying to shake him awake while we were working on him. He was conscious, but she didn't seem to agree.

Legally, in my system, the only person who can ignore an EMS persons directions on scene is a Doctor, and that is only if the doctor has said "I am taking responsibility for this patient" and they have to ride in and fill out a bunch of paperwork. If someone is asked to step back, no matter if they are a lay person or health care professional, and they refuse, they can be charged with interfering with an emergency crew.

 

[Akulahawk]

I'm going to critique this as if the events transpired in a manner somewhat as described.

Being that this is California, that RN (who didn't ID herself) is also guilty of PC 148. That is "148. (a) (1) Every person who willfully resists, delays, or obstructs any public officer, peace officer, or an emergency medical technician...in the discharge or attempt to discharge any duty of his or her office or employment...shall be punished by a fine not exceeding one thousand dollars ($1,000), or by imprisonment in a county jail."

RN's are limited to BLS care only in the field here, UNLESS they're specifically authorized for prehospital care at the ALS level (Flight RN or MICN) and unless I'm calling a flight team, or a licensed physician decides to take over... that's my patient. An Off-Duty RN or MICN that gets in my way will be warned, LEO called, warned again, and then arrested if the interfering behavior persists.

An RN that had the BAC tested at 0.06%, if she drove, would/could be charged with a lower version of a DUI... commonly referred to as "wet and reckless".

IF the DA decides to drop charges, that may have been dropped "in the interests of justice" and was probably done via prosecutorial discretion. That RN still has the arrest on her record, and the charge for what she was arrested for, and it will be seen in CLETS. She will have to explain this arrest to any future employer as she was, in fact, arrested, and not "un-arrested" where the arrest is converted to a detention.

 

[grich242]

Charges or no charges the problem of scene control and out of control bystanders can deteriorate rapdily and become dangerous for all involved, especialy the pt. THe medical control board in our area at one time had small cards printed for us to use on scene for medical professionals who have become a problem on scene. They were written in leagelese and stated who could take control of a scene and requirements for doing so and the possible punishments for their unwelcomed interference. if i can find it I'll post it. It did really work well as most simply gave the card back and promptly left. I also work in an area where bystander interference is mind boggling where we on average get 8 to 10 "adult" family members walking inside someone house for a "routine medical". and even larger for an mva in the summer. One of the best things I've found is simple redirection to a task away from the patient, "could you move that table?" "Hold the door open " you get the idea, and sadly we have had more than out share forcibly removed from scenes by pd most will never be charged even when their behavior escalates. As a matter of fact I was shoved twice this week on scene, and while in is both unacceptable and infuriating cooler heads do prevail. and the fastest way to make it worse is to escalate yourself, voice, posture etc. So before some of you start I'm not saying to stand there and take it or to put yourself in harms way ever, being proactive early on can help difuse a situation before it gets a chance to start.

 

[Shishkabob]

She and her companion of 15 years, Bill Shields, both say Ohlott saved Mori’s life and both took her side in the controversy.

Anyone else find it funny that the person who was dead/ unconscious the whole time said the nurse was in the right?

 

[Mountain Res-Q]

Would it make a diference to anyone if she was not a current RN, rather, a former RN who no longer holds any license?

Would it make a difference if the patient was not actually in cardiac arrest (rather respiratory arrest) and was getting compressions from this bystander?

Would it make a difference if the reason the bystander was pushed out of the way was because she was doing compressions on someone with a pulse and the EMT could not make access to evaluate for a pulse?

 

[MedicSqrl]

Would it make a diference to anyone if she was not a current RN, rather, a former RN who no longer holds any license?

Would it make a difference if the patient was not actually in cardiac arrest (rather respiratory arrest) and was getting compressions from this bystander?

Would it make a difference if the reason the bystander was pushed out of the way was because she was doing compressions on someone with a pulse and the EMT could not make access to evaluate for a pulse?

Your talking too much of that logic nonsense, we will have none of that in this thread.

 

[VentMedic]

As for Gamez, Mi-Wuk-Sugar Pine Fire Chief Randy Miller will still not let him discuss the incident.

This is a very recent incident and there is still an ongoing investigation with more legal action that might be taken.

The point here is one should be very careful what you tell people if you do not want what you say to end up on a public forum. This is not a random news article but rather one that was very well known to Mountain Res-Q who was told things that the public had not been in the media. Did the EMT involved in this incident want whatever he said to be posted for the public, including attorneys, the patient, the RN involved and the media to read about since he himself could not discuss it? Is it prudent right now for that FD and EMT or someone they had given "insider info" to start a bash thread against the RN right now? Or, has there been a betrayal of things said in confidence to Mountain Res-Q? It may also not go well for the EMT and others involved who were given an order from the chief not to discuss the incident.

Just remember anything you do or say, especially the screwups, could be posted by anyone including your partner on an open EMS forum or a blog for all to read about including the patient and/or their families. While it may or may not be admissible in court, it can still lead to more scrutiny by your peers and supervising officers at work.

 

[Scout]

Can people comment and prejudice an ongoing legal case on these forums?


Would it be best to move this into a theoretical scenario

 

[VentMedic]

Can people comment and prejudice an ongoing legal case on these forums?


Would it be best to move this into a theoretical scenario

Of course they can. However, most will remain anonymous or put it in a theorectical situation. Even on the more highly publicized news worthy articles, most have refrained from posting "insider info".

Again, the point here is what if you were involved in a serious incident and told not to talk about it but yet saw everything you said, maybe in the privacy of the fire station, posted on an internet forum? This thread is not anonymous with certain "insider" information made known from the first post.

Granted this FD is volunteer and one might also view their expectations to privacy and professionalism differently. Hopefully they are still held to high standards for privacy issues involving patient care.

 

[Scout]

interesting,


We'd get sacked in no time here and might face jail.