Not a gun thread

Veneficus said:
So what about non-weapon solutions?
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Proper resources, including people, for situations that might require force (i.e. restraining psych patients). Self defense courses, verbal judo (or as someone else said.. how not to be an a-hole), etc.

Also, I'll go with the rather unpopular "nut up or shut up" argument. I have no problem with people pressing charges against someone who is altered by their own doing (drugs, alcohol). However when people who are combative due to a legitimate medical issue (active seizure, head injury, hypoglycemia, psych, etc), then it becomes a part of the job. That's not to say that we should have proper training and resources (i.e. people), but the idea of issuing a beat down to someone in a seizure with a baton or shooting them and then following up with criminal charges is rather absurd.
 
In the interest of being data driven, does anybody have any good publications related to assaults against EMS? I can't find much.

A lot of the studies seem regional in nature, making it hard to generalize. Additionally, a lot of them seem descriptive, without much analysis.

This study covered a urban FD-based EMS system. The authors found that 4% of the injuries reported in a 2 year period were due to assault.

A similar study of southern California urban EMS found that violence against EMS providers occurred in 8.5% of cases (in 349 of 4,102 calls). The authors found that "[m]ale sex, patient age, and hour of the day were significantly associated with episodes of violence." Not surprising, really. They also ran regressions concerning predictive variables: "police presence (OR 2.8; 95% CI 1.8-4.4), apparent presence of gang members (OR 2.9; 95% CI 1.6-5.3), perceived psychiatric disorder (OR 5.9; 95% CI 3.5-9.9), and perceived presence of alcohol or drug use (OR 7.0; 95% CI 4.4-11.2)."
 
Imacho said:
I have 17 yrs of Taewkowndo and 1 yr of MMA training. So I'm good. :) And I'd carry concealed if allowed.
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I'd love to see a roundhouse in the back of an ambulance, meow that would be a trick :)

As I understand it the emphasis on self defense for close area attacks tends to be more on evading and distancing yourself from the attacker. I've also taken a fair amount of hapkido and a smattering of taekwando back in the day and I don't see it being real useful in the confines of an ambulance. MMA might be better I don't know much about it.
 
I'd like to see point of view cameras on all providers and cameras in rigs. If we could "have the tapes pulled" we might be more likely to report incidents and assaults. I was present at a few incidents where we didn't bother reporting anything because it would just be our word against theirs. With video it would also be much easier to get a conviction.
 
schulz said:
Versed auto injector or succinylcholine blow gun for EMS
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schulz for president

"A chicken in every microwave and a dart gun in every ambulance!":beerchug:
 
Rocketmedic40 said:
I think that we should seriously consider three-man crews for dangerous areas, with one of those personnel charged with scene safety. Consider arming them, if appropriate.

Law enforcement on every call may not be effective, and if you've got an extrication challenge or a sick patient, two people may be sucked in. A third person watching their back can be quite valuable, and they can help with care once they're clear or in less-dangerous settings. 46Young's FD comes to mind....it's a lot easier to fight two people than 7.
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There are a few other advantages to a three man crew also, and one huge disadvantage that will be the reason it is never implemented...cost. Too bad, though, because three man crews would go a long ways towards resolving several issues surrounding EMS.
 
I'm compact, flexible and very well coordinated. And our trucks are huge. So I have plenty of space for maneuverability. I wouldn't throw a round kick in a truck. It's too telegraphed and not as efficient as other kicks. I would be in close to neutralize the other. That's where the grappling training would come into play. Plus, I know a fair amount of effective pressure points and locks. So even if a large pt becomes hostile, I feel I can manage any situation effectively and safely.
 
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Imacho said:
I'm compact, flexible and very well coordinated. And our trucks are huge. So I have plenty of space for maneuverability. I wouldn't throw a round kick in a truck. It's too telegraphed and not as efficient as other kicks. I would be in close to neutralize the other. That's where the grappling training would come into play. Plus, I know a fair amount of effective pressure points and locks. So even if a large pt becomes hostile, I feel I can manage any situation effectively and safely.
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I hope you never have to try that because I already know how it is going to work out and it will likely not go the way you want it to.
 
When the pt rears up and latches onto your ear with his or her teeth, whatcha gonna do?
 
Imacho said:
I'm compact, flexible and very well coordinated. And our trucks are huge. So I have plenty of space for maneuverability. I wouldn't throw a round kick in a truck. It's too telegraphed and not as efficient as other kicks. I would be in close to neutralize the other. That's where the grappling training would come into play. Plus, I know a fair amount of effective pressure points and locks. So even if a large pt becomes hostile, I feel I can manage any situation effectively and safely.
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Lol! I dont have any experience with hostile patients in the EMS world, but i do have 3 tours in Iraq (03,04,06-07). stay safe, because you sound dangerous. or else you are trolling. you gonna shoot for a single leg and transition to an arm bar in the truck?
 
JPINFV said:
Seat belts and a treadmill.

The problem with assaults is that they often don't amount to anything that a weapon can be used on. Unless you're prevented from getting away or the patient is chasing you then there really isn't much you can do. Just because you get punched by a patient doesn't mean you get to go to town on the patient with an asp baton (which makes the firearm debate particularly hilarious since only an extremely small percent of assaults against EMS providers rise to justify deadly force). The more common weapons like pepper spray aren't really useful in enclosed spaces like the back of an ambulance.
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I hate to say it but the biggest preventive measure would probably be to get our EMS care providers in better shape. Some EMS providers can't walk away from a dangerous situation quickly let alone run.

I am all for predesignating neighborhoods or streets that will require a police response to the call between the hours of X and X.

Fire department first response (Standard in many areas) is a big preventive measure too. Someone might get snippy and argue with the overweight guy and little girl that show up on an ambulance but the 2-4 in shape firefighters (please..please...be in shape if your a firefighter) that show up with a big red truck generally help calm the situation. I find that people won't get physical or argue as much if there are 6 of you as opposed to 2....
 
mycrofft said:
When the pt rears up and latches onto your ear with his or her teeth, whatcha gonna do?
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Uppercut to the groin. If I'm fighting in an ambulance there's no such thing or reason for a fair fight.
 
JPINFV said:
Uppercut to the groin. If I'm fighting in an ambulance there's no such thing or reason for a fair fight.
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Yep. The only unfair fight is the one you lose.
 
ffemt8978 said:
Yep. The only unfair fight is the one you lose.
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"Hell, I'll kill a man in a fair fight... or if I think he's gonna start a fair fight, or if he bothers me, or if there's a woman, or if I'm gettin' paid - mostly only when I'm gettin' paid."

-Jayne Cobb.
 
JPINFV said:
"Hell, I'll kill a man in a fair fight... or if I think he's gonna start a fair fight, or if he bothers me, or if there's a woman, or if I'm gettin' paid - mostly only when I'm gettin' paid."

-Jayne Cobb.
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In the words of a very wise sensei.

"There are those who fight with honor and those who fight to win. Don't confuse one with the other."
 
Veneficus said:
In the words of a very wise sensei.

"There are those who fight with honor and those who fight to win. Don't confuse one with the other."
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"You don't know me, son, so let me explain this to you once: If I ever kill you, you'll be awake. You'll be facing me, and you'll be armed."
-Captain Malcom Reynolds.
 
JPINFV said:
"You don't know me, son, so let me explain this to you once: If I ever kill you, you'll be awake. You'll be facing me, and you'll be armed."
-Captain Malcom Reynolds.
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Memorable quotes for
El Diablo
Billy Ray Smith: [outraged] You just shot that man in the back!
Van Leek: [unperturbed] His back was to me.
 
JPINFV said:
"Hell, I'll kill a man in a fair fight... or if I think he's gonna start a fair fight, or if he bothers me, or if there's a woman, or if I'm gettin' paid - mostly only when I'm gettin' paid."

-Jayne Cobb.

"You don't know me, son, so let me explain this to you once: If I ever kill you, you'll be awake. You'll be facing me, and you'll be armed."
-Captain Malcom Reynolds.
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Zoe: Preacher, don't the Bible have some pretty specific things to say about killin'?
Book: Quite specific. It is, however, somewhat fuzzier on the subject of kneecaps.
 
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