Man's death puts spotlight on paramedics’ wait-for-police policy

MMiz

MMiz

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Man's death puts spotlight on paramedics’ wait-for-police policy

Toronto Police Chief Bill Blair revealed Thursday that two other ambulances were waiting for police back-up on other calls the night that paramedics were allegedly slow to respond to a dying 59-year-old man.

The disclosure puts a spotlight on the practice of ''staging'' -- in which paramedics choose not to respond to a call until after police arrive -- as Bruce Farr, Toronto's Chief of Toronto Emergency Medical Services, asked the Ministry of Health to look into the June 25 incident at 40 Alexander St.

Read more!
 
"We're not going to send our paramedics into a situation that is potentially a danger to their health and safety," [Glen Gillies, executive secretary of the Toronto Paramedic Association] said. "We will not go into a situation of violence or an unknown situation."
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doesn't sound like a bad policy. the question that should be asked is what made this scene be categorized as unsafe
 
waiting for police

I don't care what happens, I will wait for police, since I don't care a weapon
 
MMiz said:
Man's death puts spotlight on paramedics’ wait-for-police policy

Toronto Police Chief Bill Blair revealed Thursday that two other ambulances were waiting for police back-up on other calls the night that paramedics were allegedly slow to respond to a dying 59-year-old man.

The disclosure puts a spotlight on the practice of ''staging'' -- in which paramedics choose not to respond to a call until after police arrive -- as Bruce Farr, Toronto's Chief of Toronto Emergency Medical Services, asked the Ministry of Health to look into the June 25 incident at 40 Alexander St.

Read more!
Click to expand...


We still train all EMS providers to "stage" until the scene is safe. They can review, review, review any case they like......... The average EMS unit in the US/UK or Canada is not a para-military/Swat type response unit trained or equipped to enter unsafe scenes to perform hot-zone evacs.

I can gladly debate this with anyone who wishes to "review" such a case.

Kip
 
MMiz said:
The disclosure puts a spotlight on the practice of ''staging'' -- in which paramedics choose not to respond to a call until after police arrive --
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"choose"? Whose word is that?
 
Lets see go in get hurt or die because someone is having a bad day or run of luck..Nope not my problem they are sick or injured. Unsafe is Unsafe.
 
Do the police go with you on every single call?
 
Why was the scene unsafe? The article doesn't say...of course we can all say "if it's unsafe I'll sit in my rig and watch someone bleed out in front of me", but I'd like to hear, in this case, what made the scene unsafe. It hasn't been unheard of for lazy paramedics to ask for police help if only to delay doing any work while they sit and wait.
 
I'm curious...

how many people think that Paramedics/EMT's have a legal obligation to respond to a dangerous scene? Or any scene for that matter?

Not a moral obligation, a legal obligation.
 
Lets look at the facts the the media tend to over-look. I, and all other clinicians are:

- Not trained trained, nor required to arrest or otherwise forcefully detain EDPs.

- Not superheros, therefore not bullet proof!

- All looking to go home safe to our families / friends. We're not going to, nor should be expected to put ourselves in unnecessary danger

- All aware we can have a dangerous profession, but tend to be intelligent enough to minimise this risk. For example, wait for the people trained to do this. And generally do it well.

- Never forget, we're definately NOT paid enough to add avoidable danger.

We put ourselves at enough risk of going and being in a small enclosed space with the possibly infectious person. The least we can do is take knives and bullets out of the equation whenever possible.
 
It's not my emergency, that's pretty much how I look at it. Same reason I get passed while driving code, it's not my emergency :-)
 
John E said:
how many people think that Paramedics/EMT's have a legal obligation to respond to a dangerous scene? Or any scene for that matter?

Not a moral obligation, a legal obligation.
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well for me its both.. I'm catholic so I believe in helping others out when they're in need. and then (esp in ca) everybody is sue happy... so I mean. So long as I stop and do something small but right... im content.. and so it the pt
 
I don't think there's any question about whether or not we should go into dangerous scenes...

I think, as others said, that we need to know whether or not the scene is actually dangerous.

For example, we are sent on accidental overdoses all the time... but the dispatch protocols require a police response for all "overdoses" - even children who may have drank some sort of cleaning agent. Changing the protocol to stage EMS only for intentional overdoses would save time on the other calls. However, then we have to look at the sensitivity of the protocols... Are we going to be able to catch every dangerous situation with a limited protocol?

In this case, I'd love to hear the 911 recordings. Obviously they didn't release anything to the media that shows a dangerous scene. It'd really be nice to know why paramedics "chose" to stage. It appears that a security guard was with the patient the whole time. Obviously I don't have the whole story, though.
 
Agreed

I don't wear body armor. I don't carry a weapon, pepper spray, or handcuffs. I am not trained to enter a hostile scene and restrain a combative person. I am not willing to put myself in danger that others are more well equipped to handle. That being said, we are dispatched to stage out of the area at the company I work for, and LEO's on scene will clear us to enter when they deem it's safe. No, cops don't show up on every call, but when they do, I'm in favor of letting them do their jobs to make my job safer.

imurphy said:
- Not trained trained, nor required to arrest or otherwise forcefully detain EDPs.

- Not superheros, therefore not bullet proof!

- All looking to go home safe to our families / friends. We're not going to, nor should be expected to put ourselves in unnecessary danger

- All aware we can have a dangerous profession, but tend to be intelligent enough to minimise this risk. For example, wait for the people trained to do this. And generally do it well.

- Never forget, we're definately NOT paid enough to add avoidable danger.

We put ourselves at enough risk of going and being in a small enclosed space with the possibly infectious person. The least we can do is take knives and bullets out of the equation whenever possible.
Click to expand...
 
John E said:
how many people think that Paramedics/EMT's have a legal obligation to respond to a dangerous scene? Or any scene for that matter?

Not a moral obligation, a legal obligation.
Click to expand...

I'm not a lawyer by any means, so I have no idea. However, there is an old saying... "I'd rather be judged by twelve, than carried by six."

Summit said:
In some areas of the country, that is impossible and/or unnecessary.
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That's unfortunate.
 
HotelCo said:
I'm not a lawyer by any means, so I have no idea. However, there is an old saying... "I'd rather be judged by twelve, than carried by six."
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My thoughts exactly. While we do have an obligation to help while on duty, we are no expected to knowingly put ourselves in danger.
 
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