Mandated Overtime Shifts

RocketMedic

Californian, Lost in Texas
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So here’s a question:
What is your opinion of mandatory overtime? We run a 24/48 at my current employer, and like most places, we are understaffed as a routine manner. The pandemic has worsened this, but there’s always overtime we can’t fill anyways. Mandated 24-hour shifts are how we fill them. They’re assigned 2 weeks out to the people with the least hours that week, can be traded, but must be worked. So what are your thoughts on mandates, alternatives to them, and how do you fill required spots?
 

NPO

Forum Deputy Chief
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Mandated overtime can be a solution to staffing issues. It's not a great solution, but it can be done in a way where it's not overly intrusive. I personally am not object to the idea but I know some people are. To me it's like this, my work tells me I have to be here 3-4 days per week and at least 36 hours per week. I don't understand the big dead by altering that to also include 1 assigned overtime shift per pay period. But again, that's just me.
 

CCCSD

Forum Deputy Chief
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Welcome to what the Cops and Firefighters have been dealing with for YEARS.
 

Tigger

Dodges Pucks
Community Leader
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We have mandatory OT here for any open shift not filled by the float person or someone on voluntary OT. There's a list on our staffing app and once you do your forced time (has to be over five hours but won't be more than 24), you go to the bottom. Each rank has a list. The crappy part is that if you're at the top you can get forced at anytime. While you could always tell them you're out of the state or drunk, the expectation is that you come in if it's feasible. I wish we would make an issue to force people the people about to go off shift or come on first, but that's not how it works. I also wish we would pay more than regular OT for this.

Most of the guys just kind of accept it, as do I. I was pissed last month after I picked up OT voluntarily and then got forced in the same week.

My AMR op is short right now and for the first time in my seven years there they are requiring all staff to work an extra 12 a month or be assigned a shift. My regular job is also short and my OT is quite a bit more so sorry AMR...
 

NPO

Forum Deputy Chief
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We have mandatory OT here for any open shift not filled by the float person or someone on voluntary OT. There's a list on our staffing app and once you do your forced time (has to be over five hours but won't be more than 24), you go to the bottom. Each rank has a list. The crappy part is that if you're at the top you can get forced at anytime. While you could always tell them you're out of the state or drunk, the expectation is that you come in if it's feasible. I wish we would make an issue to force people the people about to go off shift or come on first, but that's not how it works. I also wish we would pay more than regular OT for this.

Most of the guys just kind of accept it, as do I. I was pissed last month after I picked up OT voluntarily and then got forced in the same week.

My AMR op is short right now and for the first time in my seven years there they are requiring all staff to work an extra 12 a month or be assigned a shift. My regular job is also short and my OT is quite a bit more so sorry AMR...
How much notice do you get that you're being forced? If you can't come in because you're drunk it sounds like last minute notification which seems like a bad process.
 

DesertMedic66

Forum Troll
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I’m not a fan of it personally. Neither the ground agency I work at nor the flight agency I am with due mandatory OT. They will instead offer incentives for employees to voluntarily pick it up.
 

Aprz

The New Beach Medic
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Not a fan.
 

OceanBossMan263

Forum Crew Member
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Obviously planned OT would be ideal and more easily swallowed by the group. I wouldn't mind knowing ahead of time that every 2 weeks I'm working an extra shift.

Next best option would be the designated OT person/pool. At least then I know that I may be called on during a certain time and can clear my schedule. But in that case, I would want some compensation for staying available, even if it's a day's worth of PTO in lieu of cash, assuming I'm not called in.
 

chriscemt

Forum Lieutenant
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I'm glad I've never worked anywhere were an enforced OT mandate was in place (or used). Currently, we have enough guys who enjoy the OT checks that we generally don't have an issue.

There is a neighboring agency that has enforced holdovers, and on the face of it, doesn't sound terrible. You run 24/48, and can be held for an additional 12 - giving you something like a 36/36 sometimes. I would think I could do okay to plan around it. It'd suck to have your one good Saturday a month ruined, but again, I think I would do okay to plan around it.
 

jgmedic

Fire Truck Driver
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Privates I never had it, every public agency ever has forced OT, more so if it's the fire service.
 

Tigger

Dodges Pucks
Community Leader
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How much notice do you get that you're being forced? If you can't come in because you're drunk it sounds like last minute notification which seems like a bad process.
Depends really. They can send vacation coverage out a month in advance. If no one picks it up voluntarily they'll send the force notification then. If someone calls out sick on duty and no one answers the coverage page, they'll *try* to force you right then, which is absurd.
 

DrParasite

The fire extinguisher is not just for show
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as someone who would pick up all the OT I could, I hate mandatory OT. Especially last-minute mandatory OT.

We worked 12 hour shifts at my first EMS job, so if your relief called out, and they couldn't get someone to cover, a full time employee would be forced to work for an additional 6 hours (we had a cap of 18 consecutive hours worked for all shifts). part timers could not be forced.

At my last EMS job, we worked 12s, and could be forced if we had two units down. This means two ALS units, two BLS units, or two Comms positions. We could run short with one unit down (and OT wasn't always approved if we were down one unit, it was all manager's discretion), but at two, we forced people to stay for the rest of the shift.

Forcing people to come into work on their day off is a surefire way to kill morale. Especially if they made plans to go on a vacation, or were working another job, which causes the other employer to have to scramble and backfill that position. Or if you were watching your kids. And if you call me at home to force me to come in, and I don't want to, then I'm pretty sure I will have started drinking 5 minutes before the phone rang.

Realistically, the question that management needs to ask is WHY do they have issues with employees not wanting to work OT. Maybe they need more part time staff. maybe they need additional full time staff, so they have enough to cover openings so they don't drop below minimum staffing levels.
 

Tigger

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We don't have part time staff at all, which for better or for worse is just part of the fire service culture it appears. Most OT gets picked up but sometimes it doesn't, usually because the day is not desirable (holiday, etc). Being forced several weeks out is looked at as part of the job here so there is little complaining.

The chief recently approached the union about using the overtime ranking (as in how many shift OT hours each person has worked) in reverse as the force list and that was quickly voted down. Most of us that do pick up a lot of voluntary shifts understand that some people don't have a personal life conducive to this and it wouldn't be fair to constantly punish them with force after force.
 

Jim37F

Forum Deputy Chief
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Current Fire job, they only do mandatory Hold Over OT if only 2 guys show up for the next shift and they need a third guy to stay in service. Only been in 3 tears, but I've only seen it happen like once or twice at my stations

My previous EMT job would do mandatory hold overs up to 4 hrs if your relief was only half crew (i.e. only 1 guy showed up). Doesn't sound so bad on paper, but after a standup 24 with maybe 4 hrs of sleep in 2 or 3 non-contiguous blocks it sucked.

OT there was practically unlimited, could go straight from a 24 into another if you wanted. Current job you're limited to 36hrs straight, then must have at least 8hrs off before you can work again, and the automated system won't even let you pick up a shift that puts you at 36, that has to be the BC calling and asking for voluntary holdovers.
 

DrParasite

The fire extinguisher is not just for show
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We don't have part time staff at all, which for better or for worse is just part of the fire service culture it appears. Most OT gets picked up but sometimes it doesn't, usually because the day is not desirable (holiday, etc). Being forced several weeks out is looked at as part of the job here so there is little complaining.
I will agree, that many FDs, particularly union based FDs, are either all FT, or only utilize their PT staff for non-suppression roles (ie, they can only ride on the ambulance).

I guess my question would be, is your regular staffing levels also the minimum staffing? Meaning, at my first EMS job, our normal staffing was our minimum staffing levels for all of our 911 trucks (each truck was assigned an area, and if they were OOS, they didn't have appropriate coverage for that area). So if we had any call outs, we went down the part-timer/ per diem list, and then went to OT. At my other job, we have 4 24 hr BLS trucks for one city, and 5 24 hour ALS trucks for three cities, so if we had a truck go down, we didn't always get it covered with OT. we just ran short.

It is similar at the FD; our normal staffing is 3 per shift, but we can go down to 2 and still be at our minimum staffing. in the city FD at my first EMS job, they had 4 assigned to every engine, and 5 on the ladder, with no minimum staffing. OT was approved for coverage, but if they had vacations, and sick out, they just ran short, with no minimum staffing requirements.

My point was, if they only have FT employees, does that mean their minimum staffing is every seat filled by someone, or can they run short at still meet their minimum staffing requirements, and not have to force someone?
 

CALEMT

The Other Guy/ Paramaybe?
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Tigger

Dodges Pucks
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I guess my question would be, is your regular staffing levels also the minimum staffing?
We staff 15 everyday, the minimum is 14. There is an extra firefighter on every shift to alleviate daily OT. We can drop to 13 for less than four hours as well.
 
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