mad dies after calling 911 10 times

[MrBrown]

also to be fair, the director is often a political appointee, who frequently never did the job in that city as a street medic, and as such, their opinion is often whatever is in the best interest of their (the director or mayor's) career, or in response the the public outcry, regardless of if it's based in fact or if its in the best interests of the people they are in charge of.

You're onto it mate, he is just spouting words that sound good.

Not to excuse the ambo's but come on .... you cal 911 ten times over what was it, about two days, and yet you make no effort to get the patient to the hospital yourself or meet the ambulance if it can get so close you can see it? Where is a little initaive here???

 

[Veneficus]

here is another part of the article that is pretty important:So the paramedics were just following orders in doing what they did. not saying they were necessarily right, but most large EMS systems are treated like paramilitary organizations. if they disobeyed orders they could be discipline for insubordination or not following the directions of a supervisor.

He can expect all he wants, but change starts at the top, and works it's way down. Fix the management, correct their attitudes, and let them know that their actions won't be permitted. then deal with the field personnel.

I have noticed that "just following orders" is nothing more than a pathetic excuse.

If a paramedic wants to be considered anything more than an ambulance driver, (a taxi cab to use some of Pittsburgs terms) they have to make decisions at some level on their own. Poor/no decisions or initiative were shown and those people are not needed in EMS.

Forget bout paramilitary, even in the millitary there is a feedback system and a proper way to bring objections.

On the extreme end there is a duty to disobey an unlawful order. But in this case "Sir I really think we should make patient contact if they say they cannot walk to the ambulance before terminating the response."

If a patient claims they couldn't walk, but made an effort, either the patient lied and didn't make the effort, or the condition renders them incapable of ambulating.

Would you leave an elderly person with a fractured femur because they couldn't walk to your ambulance in the snow?

I agree there were system failures. But there is also some individual responsibility too. Ask some former soldiers who commited crimes and used the "I was just following orders" defense how well it works.

Part of being a professional, or even a grown up, involves taking responsibility for your decisions.

The union in this case has such a weak argument it makes paramedics look like morons who need to be told when to tie their shoes.

 

[CAOX3]

This guy dialed 911 ten times over a 30 hour period and then died. Everyone gets fired, this coming from a union person myself, no one deserves protection in a case like this. We dont promote or defend incompetency

This wasnt a guy who dialed 911 once and died waiting for an ambulance that was delayed 15 minutes in a snowstorm.

Devise a plan and then execute it or pack your bags. Simple.

 

[DrParasite]

This guy dialed 911 ten times over a 30 hour period and then died. Everyone gets fired, this coming from a union person myself, no one deserves protection in a case like this. We dont promote or defend incompetency

This wasnt a guy who dialed 911 once and died waiting for an ambulance that was delayed 15 minutes in a snowstorm.

Devise a plan and then execute it or pack your bags. Simple.

out of curiosity, do you work in NYC, or in another concrete jungle?

Based on your statement, I can tell you have never, ever worked as a dispatcher. because I can have a guy with severe abdominal pain call me 5 times when we are backed up with shooting and stabbings and chest pains, while other higher priority calls only call once.

In fact, the last shift I worked, I received a call for a person having a seizure (in my system prioritized as a low priority call, by more educated people than I). in fact, while I was taking the call, my partner was taking the exact same call, from another person in the same house. 3 minutes after we took the call (well, both), they called back again. person was postictal, but they ambulance showed up. 2 minutes later, another call. thankfully it was a slow night, so an ambulance was sent right away, but if we were busy, the job would have held. So those 4 calls in the span on 10 minutes don't equate to the call being more life threatening than a chest pain or resp distress call, where the caller only calls once and then waits for the ambulance. There is absolutely no correlation.

Now before you jump all over me, keep this in mind: it was during a massive snow storm, there were probably dozens if not hundreds of calls holding, and the city didn't have enough units. You need to give the dispatchers some leeway, as well as the field units. and I'm sorry, but a low priority calls that just this one time turns out to be fatal is the exception, not the rule, to priority dispatching.

yes they should have found a way to make it to the scene, or even better, the sick person's family should have gotten the patient into the car and driven to the hospital (I know shocker there), esp when it became obvious that help wasn't coming after the first hour of waiting. but the caller canceled the ambulance too. As a result, they share some part of the burden (as does DPW for now plowing, the medical director, the city for not staffing enough units, the idiot director who is throwing his crews under the bus, and the crew and supervisor, who didn't use their rescues or the FD to make patient contact (although it may be because the EMS rescue and FD were tied up on other calls during this horrific storm), and of course, mother nature for sending this mother of all snow storms).

btw, I once called 911 in NYC, midtown Manhattan to be exact, for a coworker of mine who was having chest pains. we were on the 40th floor of a highrise. after 20 minutes of waiting, I called 911 again, to see what the status was of the ambulance. the dispatcher told me they came and left. apparently the original crew picked up some bum from outside and took him to the hospital, and never came to the 40th floor. another unit finally showed up (30 minutes after the initial 911 call), and took him to the hospital for eval.

should the paramedic/emt crew who was sent first be fired? they were obviously incompetent, for not even bothering to come to the floor we were on. no call back was made to confirm they had the right patient. hell, if we had been patient, and not called 911 again, an ambulance might have never shown up. using your line of thinking, the dispatcher, call taker, EMS crew, supervisor and medical director should all be fired for gross incompetence. I just want to make sure we are on the same page here.

 

[CAOX3]

No I do not work for FDNY. They dont pay enough

You cant compare the two, your buddy waited 30 minutes for an ambulance this guy waited 30 hours, then died.

I dont know the role the dispatcher played in this mess, if they didnt follow their protocols then yes fire them. Who ever didnt have a comprehensive plan in place to deal with a blizzard when its very likely you could recieve one then yes your fired. If the crew did not not make an adequate attempt to reach and treat the patient then yes fire them.

We have four wheel drive vehicles, they can reach just about anyone. I have a four wheel drive truck and have yet to be snowed in. Its possible but it takes some planning and determinaion. Your best bet is not to put yourself in these situations, have a plan in place to deal with these situations when they arise. Delays will happen, somone waiting 30 hours for ambulance in this day and age with the technology we have available is ridiculous.

 

[Foxbat]

As far as I remember, the QA report said that 4WD with supervisor was responding but then dispatcher said the caller requested to cancel.
P.S. It's a small world, it turned out I know one of the people who were suspended...

 

[eveningsky339]

I work for an ambulance service in the foothills of Western Maine. We've had to climb snowbanks up to fifteen feet high (no exaggeration) with c-spines, BLS bags, and fairly cumbersome rescue equipment, and we didn't once think about asking the patient to come to us, or returning to the ambulance because we can't reach the patient, my poor little legs don't work so well, I spend all my down-time munching junk food in front of the television, etc.

This fiasco is a joke. Fire every last one of the responding crews and dispatchers and press charges.

 

[DrParasite]

No I do not work for FDNY. They dont pay enough

I didn't say, FDNY, I said NYC. there are more EMS agencies in NYC that just the FD, and almost all pay better B)

You cant compare the two, your buddy waited 30 minutes for an ambulance this guy waited 30 hours, then died.

you are absolutely right. in my case, the crew willfully neglected to go to the location they were dispatched to, on a clear day, neglected to do a call back to ensure they had the right patient (since the patient wasn't where they were dispatched to), and picked up some random guy, instead of the person who called 911. In the Pittsburgh case, the system was uber backed up, it was during a blizzard where the roads were horrendous, and often unpassable, and the caller canceled the ambulance several times (as the report says). You are right, you can't compare the two, one is willful incompetence, and the other one is during a massive snow storm where the caller canceled the ambulance.

We have four wheel drive vehicles, they can reach just about anyone. I have a four wheel drive truck and have yet to be snowed in. Its possible but it takes some planning and determinaion. Your best bet is not to put yourself in these situations, have a plan in place to deal with these situations when they arise. Delays will happen, somone waiting 30 hours for ambulance in this day and age with the technology we have available is ridiculous.

I am not disagreeing with you on any areas. but not every system has 4 wheel drive vehicles available. And if the system (pitt EMS) doesn't have the plans in place, then its the director and management staff who should be fired, not the crew because the system lacks the proper resources to handle the calls.

Also, many people are focusing on the 30 hours, and how the caller was waiting 30 hours. this is not correct. several calls were made, and several times the call was canceled. once the call was canceled (by the caller), the clock restarts. the other times were inexcusable, but when the caller cancels you, well, that's what happens.

fix the system, but don't look to hang the field crews because of limitations and the lack of planning of the agency.

 

[CAOX3]

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/10093/1047597-53.stm

The paramedic has been fired.

 

[DrParasite]

I know this is going to shock everyone but...

She deserved to be fired. Not only that, but the City can't tolerate that type of behavior, esp if it gets on a recorded line.


Family sues over Pa. man's unheeded 911 calls
One paramedic was fired and three others were suspended over his death

PITTSBURGH — The children of a man who died after waiting 30 hours for help during a snowstorm despite repeated calls to 911 are suing. The lawsuit claims the city, the county dispatch center and the various paramedics and emergency medical services brass are responsible for the February death of 50-year-old Curtis Mitchell.

Mitchell died after ambulance crews didn't reach him despite calling 911 repeatedly over 30 hours as a storm dumped nearly two feet of snow on the city. One paramedic was fired, and three others were suspended over Mitchell's death. The lawsuit claims he endured agonizing stomach pain while waiting for help.

Allegheny County Medical Examiner Karl Williams later determined Mitchell died of natural causes — heart disease complicated by a fatty liver — though toxicology tests confirmed that a poor blood supply caused Mitchell's intestines to swell and likely led to the discomfort he suffered. Mitchell's family contends he might have lived had he gotten help sooner in the 51-page lawsuit obtained by The Associated Press. It was being filed Thursday by Mitchell's children, Theresa Thornton and Jeremiah C. Mitchell in Allegheny County.

read the rest: http://www.ems1.com/communications-...-Family-sues-over-Pa-mans-unheeded-911-calls/

 

[SirensSong102]

If I was the medic on that call, I would have got out and crawled through that snow if I had to. That's ridiculous.

Where were the DOH snow plows??

 

[Shishkabob]

If the judge rules in favor of the family, that's going to cause a horrible precedent.

 

[jjesusfreak01]

btw, I once called 911 in NYC, midtown Manhattan to be exact, for a coworker of mine who was having chest pains. we were on the 40th floor of a highrise. after 20 minutes of waiting, I called 911 again, to see what the status was of the ambulance. the dispatcher told me they came and left. apparently the original crew picked up some bum from outside and took him to the hospital, and never came to the 40th floor. another unit finally showed up (30 minutes after the initial 911 call), and took him to the hospital for eval.

should the paramedic/emt crew who was sent first be fired? they were obviously incompetent, for not even bothering to come to the floor we were on. no call back was made to confirm they had the right patient. hell, if we had been patient, and not called 911 again, an ambulance might have never shown up. using your line of thinking, the dispatcher, call taker, EMS crew, supervisor and medical director should all be fired for gross incompetence. I just want to make sure we are on the same page here.

Thats the most clear case of abandonment i've seen in a while. They have a few options. If they think the street bum is more urgently in need of a trip to the hospital (than a chest pain patient), transport him and call out for another ambulance immediately. If they think he isn't as urgent call out for a second ambulance to transport him and proceed to original call.

They should most certainly be fired if they didn't call for another ambulance immediately.

 

[TransportJockey]

Thats the most clear case of abandonment i've seen in a while. They have a few options. If they think the street bum is more urgently in need of a trip to the hospital (than a chest pain patient), transport him and call out for another ambulance immediately. If they think he isn't as urgent call out for a second ambulance to transport him and proceed to original call.

They should most certainly be fired if they didn't call for another ambulance immediately.

How is it abandonment if they never made contact with the patient that was originally called for? IIRC to be considered abandonment you actually have to make contact with the patient.

 

[Aidey]

If the judge rules in favor of the family, that's going to cause a horrible precedent.

I agree. It sets the precedent that no matter what extenuating factors exist we can still be held responsible for a patient's outcome. There were mistakes made on the part of the city. The dispatch messed up by not recognizing that there had been multiple 911 calls from that number in a short period of time. The medic that was fired was very unprofessional. Those issues can and have been addressed.

However, the family can not blame the EMS agency for the snow. It would make more sense to sue the people responsible for clearing the roads than it does to sue the ambulance. The mans 911 calls weren't ignored, they attempted to respond and because of extreme circumstances could not reach the man. When a catastrophic weather event occurs there will be a break down in the system, and there may be nothing anyone can do about it. I am all for assigning responsibility where responsibility is due, but you can't hold people responsible for the weather.

 

[LonghornMedic]

I agree. It sets the precedent that no matter what extenuating factors exist we can still be held responsible for a patient's outcome. There were mistakes made on the part of the city. The dispatch messed up by not recognizing that there had been multiple 911 calls from that number in a short period of time. The medic that was fired was very unprofessional. Those issues can and have been addressed.

However, the family can not blame the EMS agency for the snow. It would make more sense to sue the people responsible for clearing the roads than it does to sue the ambulance. The mans 911 calls weren't ignored, they attempted to respond and because of extreme circumstances could not reach the man. When a catastrophic weather event occurs there will be a break down in the system, and there may be nothing anyone can do about it. I am all for assigning responsibility where responsibility is due, but you can't hold people responsible for the weather.

They were able to make it to within one block of the house. You mean to tell me that they couldn't have called an engine company over to assist them in moving the patient? Come on! We're talking two feet of snow here. Yes that's deep, but not impossible.

 

[Shishkabob]

So where do you draw the line?

What about the swift water team that wasn't able to rescue someone? I mean, it was only 6" of water, right?

 

[Aidey]

Given the state of the area after/during the snow storm, assistance may not have been readily available. I'm also not sure what they could have moved the patient on unless someone ran to the store and got a sled. A gurney is NOT making it through 2 feet of snow, no matter how many people are pulling it. There were also concerns about downed power lines under the snow that no one could see.

 

[JPINFV]

If the judge rules in favor of the family, that's going to cause a horrible precedent.

I draw the line when the paramedic thinks that it's safe enough for the patient to leave the house and come to the ambulance. If a sick patient is supposed to make that trip, I damn well expect the paramedic to make the trip. However, this only really affects the third crew and not the first two crews.

 

[Shishkabob]

I damn well expect a patient to walk through a fire to reach me instead of me going through it to reach them. (Or gunfire, or a rapidly moving river, etc etc)



Since when did provider safety mean less than patient safety just because it's snow?