Law Enforcement Response to EMS Calls
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Bullets
Forum Knucklehead
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Totally different mentality. Police and EMS share a common mission...life safety. We accomplish it in different ways, but there are many similarities. Working alone or with a single partner on most incidents, Brain over brawn.
Fire's primary mission is property safety. They train as a team, work as a team and is body over mind. Look at the NYC slogans....Finest and Smartest/Best vs Bravest. FD harks on bravery, Police do to some extent, but EMS has held itself as the 'Smartest' service.
If everything we know about medicine shows that time matters in serious medical circumstances, why wouldnt you train your cops to be EMTs? 120hrs of training isnt much. I cant put a pump and hose in the bed of a cop car, i can put a medical kit in a trunk.
MFRs can apply pressure and dress a wound, and give NRB O2. We know that NRB O2 is unneeded in most circumstances, so bleeding control is all they really can bring. These EMTs can secure an airway with a adjunct, bag an OD, spin a tourniquet. and i only have to send one guy in a car, as opposed to 4 guys in a fire truck
Plus in NJ, there is no First Responder cert. The red cross offers a basic first aid class, ad most Police Academies use this, but its a few hours that amounts to a Boy Scout merit badge. EMT is the lowest level of training the DOH certifies.
Ive never had our EMT cops interfere with our care once we arrive
DrParasite
The fire extinguisher is not just for show
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yes 100%
ExpatMedic0
MS, NRP
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I concur with you guys.
I am fine with LEO's being trained at the EMR level though. I think that is a great idea. Anything above that.... not so much
firecoins
IFT Puppet
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Cops have been trained as low as first aid and as high as paramedic. either way, cops that respond tend not to interfere with patient care. Seem to have little interest unless there is some legal aspect. Most of the cops I have worked with used to work as emts or paramedics prior to becoming cops. Cops jobs pay a lot more so a lot of emts and medics "upgrade" to LEOs.
Comparing CPR and Basic medical skills to fires is absolutely the wrong comparison, its like apples and monkeys. I would compare CPR (apples to apples) to directing traffic (a much more routine fire department call).
If you would like to start showing up on every auto wreck so you can stand in the road with a vest and direct traffic I am sure the fire department would love for you to come play in their sandbox.
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Fire doesn't direct traffic... :unsure:
Sandog
Forum Asst. Chief
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I did during a hazmat situation and had every right too. I closed an intersection for the safety of the public.
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Oh, you directed traffic once in your career? Awesome
I've blocked off intersections and evacuated blocks, also. Obviously traffic and public/crowd control will happen from time to time.
The quoted post made it sound like its an everyday occurrence. It's not. That's PD's job, and a part of their sandbox that I want no part of.
Bullets
Forum Knucklehead
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So i assume you dont have Fire Police in your area
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I adore the LEOs in my area.. They're all FR certified. I know that every one of them would much rather back off on a medical call and let EMS handle it, it's not their job, it's not their career path, it not what they "do", or prefer to do and they know it..
But they're trained enough to be extremely helpful, and they have solid stomachs and steady nerves..
You can never go wrong with steady nerves, even when someone isn't trained in EMT/P. They take orders well, and they do as they're told. At least in my neck of the woods. I love cops.
But they're trained enough to be extremely helpful, and they have solid stomachs and steady nerves..
You can never go wrong with steady nerves, even when someone isn't trained in EMT/P. They take orders well, and they do as they're told. At least in my neck of the woods. I love cops.
I feel like this is just another step towards getting rid of EMS. Law enforcement and fire can beat us to the call so why not train them so EMS has more time? Then we'll have another reason to cut more funding to EMS because law enforcement and fire can manage the scene while waiting (due to less ambulances).
If we aren't getting their fast enough, we need more available units. Why are we consistently getting beat to our calls by everyone else? Ridiculous.
And no, I don't think they should be more involved than helping move the patient or doing chest compressions. They don't need EMT training for that. If that's all they are doing, I don't care if they cops or straight up just somebody walking by minding their own business.
If we aren't getting their fast enough, we need more available units. Why are we consistently getting beat to our calls by everyone else? Ridiculous.
And no, I don't think they should be more involved than helping move the patient or doing chest compressions. They don't need EMT training for that. If that's all they are doing, I don't care if they cops or straight up just somebody walking by minding their own business.
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Fire, with the exception of one ambulance service, provided Paramedic services first. EMTs have always been around but were called various titles throughout the years but the training was essentially the same.
Police also provided Paramedic services and still do in some communities.
As communities grew, Police needed to focus on many other public safety/service issues. You should go to your city's history resources and see how EMS evolved in your community. You might also check how taxes are allocated in your state and county. What taxes are you paying for services? Does the state have a general amendment for public services?
Making broad speculating statements such as yours is a scare tactic used by unions and politicians who think the tax payers and voters are ignorant.
somebody has a persecution complex...
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Law enforcement and Highway Patrol dudes are out and about, patrolling.. That's why they beat EMS to the scene around here. If we had multiple BLS units driving randomly around the county instead of sitting in a garage, they'd probably have a faster response time..
Arovetli
Forum Captain
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Weakening the ambulance stranglehold on EMS isn't a bad thing.
Ambulances and paramedics should be separate entities.
Ambulances and paramedics should be separate entities.
My mistake... I clearly said that Fire was not first to have paramedics. </sarcasm> I didn't say anything about who was first, and really don't care who was first. I am saying that we are putting things in the wrong places. If a patient is very ill, they don't even need a paramedic, they need a doctor. They need an ambulance. We are sending police cars and fire apparatus to medical/traumatic emergencies. We are gonna end up like that one study where patients are less likely to die being stuffed into the back of a patrol car versus waiting for an ambulance.
Also haha with Unions. Hahahaha! Seriously? IAFF? Hahahaha! :rofl:
Patrolling as in driving around? Or posting? Ever heard of SSM? In my area, even IFT units aren't chilling in a garage; we don't post at our station. Why can't the same be done for EMS? Why do we continue to out source EMS? Why do we continue to waste resources by taking police away from being available for crime related emergencies, fire away from fire related emergencies, so they can respond to medical/trauma emergencies, and we don't even send them in an ambulance so we still have to send an ambulance and wait for one. Wasting resources. Am I the only one who hears that fire should get more invested into them because they can respond to quicker? That they should be paid more because they are trained in both fire suppression and EMS?
I really don't care about titles.... I'm fine if fire has an ambulance. I'm fine in police has an ambulance. Not a big deal. I'm not fine with us wasting resources and giving us more excused to cut or not invest into EMS (and I don't mean EMS as in private ambulance... I am literally talking prehospital training + an ambulance).
No. We can't even prove that ALS is beneficial other than for respiratory emergencies and pain management. Why would we want to delay a police or fire unit going back into service for the emergencies they are meant for because they have to hop into the back of the ambulance to continue their treatment that a BLS crew cannot transport with alone or diagnostics (eg serial 12-lead)?
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You comments sound much like the "statements" given out by Unions which is why I find your post funny.
I also don't think you understand how FDs and Police have been utilized in EMS for the many different geographic locations in the US. It is not always possible to have an EMT just hanging out every couple of miles waiting for an emergency.
Stuffed in the back of a patrol car? Have you been watching a lot of TV or just noticed a couple of isolated incidents in the headlines? You stated ALS might be useless except for a couple of situations. Getting a fellow Police Officer who has been shot and is within a couple blocks of a hospital, it might be faster to get them into the police care than wait 10 - 15 minutes for an ambulance to arrive, unload themselves and equipment, assess, call med control, load the patient and finally drive the 2 blocks (of course with lights and sirens).