iStat

VentMonkey

Family Guy
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@luke_31 are you guys going to be carrying HNS at your service as well? That's interesting that it's a priority demographic in your region.

Keep us posted on the results:).
 

VFlutter

Flight Nurse
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I guess the unfortunate answer is there is nothing they can do about it. You can stop the motor activity but nothing will likely touch the actual EEG activity until sodium levels are increased. So some sodium bicarbonate may help in that situation were nothing else is avaible and it is a long transport.

Just like everything in medicine it is risk vs benefit. IMO the risk of over-correcting sodium outweighs the benefit in most situations excluding status seizures. Having seen a true case of CPM, it's something I wouldn't wish on anyone. And seeing as many physicians have a hard time correctly replacing sodium in the acute setting I do not think it is something that should be messed with prehospital.
 

VentMonkey

Family Guy
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@Summit admittedly I had to google-fu CPM, so thanks for sharing:).

Also, as far as DI, and SIADH how often are you all ICU's nurses seeing this in-hospital? Are there any major pointers aside from an acute perception of the patients medical history to tip prehospital folks off?

I find endocrine disorders remarkably fascinating and can't help but wonder how often they're missed by us out-of-hospital folks.

And just 'cuz it's fun to say...pheocromocytoma anyone?
 

Summit

Critical Crazy
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Admitted an SIADH the other s/p TBI... although usually that's with more severe head injuries. DI is not a rare inpatient
 

VentMonkey

Family Guy
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Admitted an SIADH the other s/p TBI... although usually that's with more severe head injuries. DI is not a rare inpatient
Talk about complex medical cases. This is what I refer to when I say oftentimes the "critical trauma" Mongo brags about bringing in ends up way sicker from the physiological cascade of no-goodness that unfolds in-hospital more often than not; it's sad, really.

Keep bragging, Mongo, keep bragging, anyhoo...

Also, for any paramedics who want to learn, and/ or enjoy a good puzzler I would recommend looking these patient-types up; you may realize you've ran one.
 

Summit

Critical Crazy
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This patient wasn't that sick... that is what made it unusual. They went home... then developed SIADH... and back they came!
 

Eden

Forum Crew Member
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@Summit admittedly I had to google-fu CPM, so thanks for sharing:).

Also, as far as DI, and SIADH how often are you all ICU's nurses seeing this in-hospital? Are there any major pointers aside from an acute perception of the patients medical history to tip prehospital folks off?

I find endocrine disorders remarkably fascinating and can't help but wonder how often they're missed by us out-of-hospital folks.

And just 'cuz it's fun to say...pheocromocytoma anyone?
My fav contraindication.
 
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luke_31

Forum Asst. Chief
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iStats have purpose in the field... randomly screening for hyponatremia is NOT one of them. I think they are useful in long rural transport times... like 45mins... maybe driving a transport decision... or identifying the cause of a code... or terminating a code on K+... or on a CC IFT...

Hyponatremia? Was this something someone thought up to get a grant to buy these devices?

Honestly, I wouldn't trust lab values from an iStat that ran in a moving ambulance. Your receiving facility won't.


Apart from your other tools to stop muscle activity, give NS unless contraindicated. It will raise SerumNa. Your receiving facility might anyways. Bicarb.

Think about the various etiologies behind hyponatremia... is this SIADH? Post op? CHF? Cirrhosis? Overhydration?

We don't want to raise Na very fast unless we know it was acute. Who can name the complication we are worried about here?
No grant money, we are a federal agency so it just comes out of the overall budget for supplies.
@luke_31 are you guys going to be carrying HNS at your service as well? That's interesting that it's a priority demographic in your region.

Keep us posted on the results:).
We currently are planning on carrying 3% saline, but it may change to Sodium Bicarbonate instead in the protocol. We have a unique demographic for most of our patient population being military and on a training installation. We see some things that most others don't see on a regular basis, but the reverse is true too. Most common complaints like chest pain and true SOB calls are less likely for us. We also do a lot of rectal temp monitoring for our heat patients and have chilled saline and iced sheets to cool patients. Will definitely update once we start the protocol and how the iStat machines handle in the field. Some of the "roads" we go down are nothing more than dirt between trees, so we get rocked around in the ambulances a lot.
 
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luke_31

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And if its really out of whack, they'll just repeat it.
Maybe, since we are directly attached to the ER at our hospital it would be the same machines and they are used to treating patients that we bring in directly on what information we gather in the field.
 

medichopeful

Flight RN/Paramedic
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Unless they are actively seizing I do not really see a point in treating hyponatremia in the field.

This.

I'm jealous of services that have the iStat, and I personally think it would be awesome to have the EC8+ cartridge. Basic electrolytes and VBG/ABGs (though not complete), along with H+H.
 

FiremanMike

Just a dude
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Anybody using iStats in the field? We are getting them to run chem 8s on the off chance that our patient is hyponatremic. Curious to see how durable the device is in the back of the ambulance and if anyone has had problems with getting them to work while bouncing down the road.

Our community paramedic will be getting one at some point, but I don't see a current need for it for EMS use.
 

Tigger

Dodges Pucks
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Our community paramedic will be getting one at some point, but I don't see a current need for it for EMS use.
We have one for our MIH program. In order to bring patients directly to psych facilities we have to run a Chem 8 on them. We don't do it while moving, but it's held up pretty well especially since it's in an big pelican case. Also, it does not like cold. At all.
 

E tank

Caution: Paralyzing Agent
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I guess the unfortunate answer is there is nothing they can do about it. You can stop the motor activity but nothing will likely touch the actual EEG activity until sodium levels are increased. So some sodium bicarbonate may help in that situation were nothing else is avaible and it is a long transport.
.

Roughly, 2 ml/kg 8.4 % NaHCO3 raises serum sodium about 2-3 points.
 
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EpiEMS

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In order to bring patients directly to psych facilities we have to run a Chem 8 on them.

Is the MIH medic interpreting the results, or just comparing them to a threshold?
 

Tigger

Dodges Pucks
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Is the MIH medic interpreting the results, or just comparing them to a threshold?
Depends what you mean by that. We don't have a CLIA waiver that would allow us to make destination decisions based on labwork alone. However, we nonetheless developed a checksheet for admission of mental health patients and one of them is "lab values within normal ranges." There is still wiggle room if the provider does not think they lab value is concerning (ie BGL of 180).
 

EpiEMS

Forum Deputy Chief
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@Tigger, I didn't realize this - so you would need a specific CLIA waiver if you're using a CLIA-waived test for treatment and/or destination decisions?
 

Tigger

Dodges Pucks
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@Tigger, I didn't realize this - so you would need a specific CLIA waiver if you're using a CLIA-waived test for treatment and/or destination decisions?
Apparently we require something called a moderately complex waiver. That's about the end of my knowledge of it, our community paramedic guy knows these things (or at least I think he does).
 
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luke_31

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Well we are now running with the iStats in the ambulance, so far it's not had any problems beyond some provider issues with not being totally comfortable using it yet. Handles really well going down the rough roads, when we start the test before moving. No hyponatremic patients yet, but they still haven't gotten the stock of hypertonic saline from the pharmacy yet. So I guess it's a good thing since we can't treat the hyponatremia yet.
 
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