How NOT to drive Code 3.

A couple of months ago, we were sent for an organ transplant, LS. I was passenger, and watched for my partner who was driving, but I also had my phone out taping just to show my family how crappy people react to ambulances. I'd upload the video for you guys to see but there's some cussing.


Anyhow, in a couple of the spots, we're coming up on a stoplight with traffic stopped. Traffic will BLOW THROUGH the red light, even when we're not in their lane, when we're still a fair bit away, and when there is already an open lane for us to go through. We pushed no one through any light.




The public has a TON to learn.




(Only LS response I've recorded... I felt like a whacker doing it)
 
Why don't we look at the logic?

Permanant injury/brain death from hypoxia, 6-8 minutes.


The NFPA 1710 standard is based upon a combination of accepted practices and more than 30 years of study, research, testing and validation. Members of the 1710 committee that developed the standard include representatives from various fire agencies and the International Association of City/County Managers (ICMA).

Yet the clinical outcome is not better.

On all EMS calls, the NFPA 1710 standard establishes a turnout time of one minute, and four minutes or less for the arrival of a unit with first responder or higher level capability at an emergency medical incident. This objective should be met 90% of the time.

So if you consider the delay in time of calling, lets say 30 seconds. The dispatcher taking information and dispatchig the responders, 1 minute. 1 minute turnout time, 4 minutes to arrival of the unit. (not to be confused with initiating patient care, which would be impossible unless you had a unit on every block and in every high rise already)

Time to pt contact: >6 minutes 90% of the time

Permanant injury/brain death from hypoxia, 6-8 minutes.

That is 6 minutes to relieve an airway obtruction. 6 minutes to start CPR. 6minutes to control a life threatening bleed.

For the benefit of the doubt, lets say it was an ALS response. By the time you start advanced procedures, like actual IV in and running add another 1 minute. Maybe interrupt CPR to look at the heart monitor?

Fail.

5 years ago I saw a study by the insurance institute of America that concluded there is an increase in the probability of being involved in an MVC by 300%. Last year the number 1 killer of both EMS and Police was traffic related.

If a fire department provides ALS services, the standard recommends arrival of an ALS company within an eight-minute response time to 90% of incidents. This does not preclude the four-minute initial response.

So under the best circumstance you arrive on scene in >6 minutes, but specify an ALS goal of under 8 minutes? Why is that? Because in anyplace other than a suburb, 4 minutes is totally unrealistic.

Permanant injury/brain death from hypoxia, 6-8 minutes.

Fail.

So you are going to risk the lives of crew, a increased response from a second unit in the event of a collision, countless "wake effect" accidents while driving with "due regard to public safety" to make no difference in the outcome of anything that can be helped from a basic CPR course?

How much is acceptable to spend on this "absolutely nothing?"

If you kill somebody on the way to a call in order to make a family "feel better" you got to a potentially permanantly vegatative patient at best when you arrive does it all balance out?

After the permanant disability or death of a responder, how is their family supposed to eek out a living? You see what people get on disability? Even less in most death benefits over the long term.

All that for "nothing?"

As long as you get paid OT for being in the honor guard at the funeral right?

Incorperate that with the findings of the OPALS study.

Logical conclusion: increased risk, no effective difference in outcome.

Let's relook at the things can can be helped.

Transport of CVA? Effective treatment for that measured in hours, not minutes.

Patient in DKA for days? they can wait a few more minutes. If not, nothing that was going to be done anywhere would change the outcome.

Hypoglycemic for hours, if not days? The same.

Anaphylaxis? No airway for 6 minutes best.

FBAO: the same.

Child in cardiac arrest? death.


Whether I trust the medical care or not, there is no responder I don't want to see go home after work. There is no injury or life worth trying to save at best a few minutes, when we have no evidence it helps in any case and the very logic looks flawed.

There are several effective steps to help a person not breathing that can be taught to everyone including children. There is one proven treatment to help in sudden cardiac arrest that can be done by J.Q. Public. It is a CPR class. Easy, cheap, and a pocket mask puts a responder on every block, in every occupied building, 24 hours a day. It is proven to better outcomes.

Much easier than an improvised cric.

It is also much easier to teach/learn CPR than to make up for the consequences of doing something like forcing a vehicle into an intersection that then gets t-boned so you can have enough room to run a red light.

Best of all, the most people have the best chance to go home at the end of the day. Patients, Crew, Bystanders.

It reduces the potential gravity of injuries in the accidents that remain when you reduce "speed" in the equation. (mass x speed)

We really have to get used to the idea that medicine cannot rescue in minutes what people have often done to themselves for years. About the only exception is trauma. While we strive to return people to as close to function as possible. Until we can start regenerating parts, all we can hope for is "close enough."

We cannot justify the loss of life of somebody we care about with the loss of another in the effort to look like we are "helping."

Your entire argument is flawed. It assumes that there's a patient who is in respiratory arrest prior to someone calling 911. That is not always the case. Someone may merely be in respiratory distress of failure when someone decides to call 911, so at that point, the 6-8 minute timer hasn't started yet. The problem might not even be respiratory arrest/failure at all; the patient could be bleeding. There are arterial bleeds that are severe enough to kill someone in several minutes or more, but not so severe that even driving at Mach 1 isn't going to help.

Your argument is flawed because it assumes that Code 3 driving will never get EMS there in time to save a life, therefore there is absolutely no benefit to driving Code 3. If it were as simple, cut-and-dry, black-and-white as that, I'd agree. But it's not, so I remain unconvinced.
 
So? Hey, cops beat people all the time for no reason besides contempt of cop, does that mean I get to beat people too?

WTF are you talking about? I know several police officers and all have been nothing but respectful towards me and others they have encountered.

I find it unprofessional for you to be saying that. Police, Fire and EMS are all public safety employees, they all are supposed to work together. I suggest you lose the arrogant attitude towards others.
 
WTF are you talking about? I know several police officers and all have been nothing but respectful towards me and others they have encountered.

I find it unprofessional for you to be saying that. Police, Fire and EMS are all public safety employees, they all are supposed to work together. I suggest you lose the arrogant attitude towards others.

I doubt JPINFV meant that literally all cops are always beating up everyone they encounter. I suspect that when he said "all the time" he was employing a bit of hyperbole (that's a link in case you don't know what that word means). So exaggerations aside, it is a fact that from time to time in the past, people were beat up by cops who had no real good reason to beat them up. You can't use the fact that it's never happened in your experience as a basis from which to assume that it never happens at all.
 
I doubt JPINFV meant that literally all cops are always beating up everyone they encounter. I suspect that when he said "all the time" he was employing a bit of hyperbole (that's a link in case you don't know what that word means). So exaggerations aside, it is a fact that from time to time in the past, people were beat up by cops who had no real good reason to beat them up. You can't use the fact that it's never happened in your experience as a basis from which to assume that it never happens at all.

I didn't see the humor or exaggeration in it I guess.
 
WTF are you talking about? I know several police officers and all have been nothing but respectful towards me and others they have encountered.

I find it unprofessional for you to be saying that. Police, Fire and EMS are all public safety employees, they all are supposed to work together. I suggest you lose the arrogant attitude towards others.

Wow... just... wow.

1. Since when did "Group X does ____ all the time" mean "All members of group X does ____." The validity of comments like, "College students smoke marijuana all the time," is not mutually exclusive from facts like, "Not all college students smoke marijuana."

2. It's a way of describing why, "Hey, everyone else does something really bad" doesn't justify any individual from doing something really bad.

3. Really? You've never heard of "contempt of cop?" Ask your cop buddies about it and I'm sure that they know at least one police officer who does the entire, "You must respect my au-thor-ity" routine. That doesn't mean all do, but that doesn't mean it occurs regularly. Want a good example of contempt of cop? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9GgWrV8TcUc

4. I'm arrogant? Have you looked in a mirror recently?
 
"Have you looked in a mirror recently?"

LOL wow..childish..

I'm glad I'm not your paramedic, you don't seem to have your head together too well. I'd be dealing with your arrogance the whole shift. Thank God I don't have to work with you.
 
*sigh*


Another medic who thinks he's the boss of the truck...






Plus I'm willing to bet JP knows more about medicine than you. He sure does know more than me.
 
I'm losing it..

I do apologize for be being so damn rude tonight. Not seeing why medicine was brought into this, but anyways..I have been real stupid tonight..

I'm not a Medic yet, I was just saying I'm glad I'm not his paramedic.

Sorry for being a jackass to everyone..if you were here I'd offer up a few beers..

JPINFV, my apologies for me being the arrogant one here..
 
Your entire argument is flawed. It assumes that there's a patient who is in respiratory arrest prior to someone calling 911. That is not always the case. Someone may merely be in respiratory distress of failure when someone decides to call 911, so at that point, the 6-8 minute timer hasn't started yet. The problem might not even be respiratory arrest/failure at all; the patient could be bleeding. There are arterial bleeds that are severe enough to kill someone in several minutes or more, but not so severe that even driving at Mach 1 isn't going to help.

Your argument is flawed because it assumes that Code 3 driving will never get EMS there in time to save a life, therefore there is absolutely no benefit to driving Code 3. If it were as simple, cut-and-dry, black-and-white as that, I'd agree. But it's not, so I remain unconvinced.

condiser the OPALS study as I suggested on how much ALS does for respiratory distress.
 
A couple of months ago, we were sent for an organ transplant, LS. I was passenger, and watched for my partner who was driving, but I also had my phone out taping just to show my family how crappy people react to ambulances. I'd upload the video for you guys to see but there's some cussing.


Anyhow, in a couple of the spots, we're coming up on a stoplight with traffic stopped. Traffic will BLOW THROUGH the red light, even when we're not in their lane, when we're still a fair bit away, and when there is already an open lane for us to go through. We pushed no one through any light.




The public has a TON to learn.




(Only LS response I've recorded... I felt like a whacker doing it)

It is a lot smaller task to have responders take responsibility for driving than it is t educate and skill the entire populace. It will never work.

The idea that people have to move is not written into law moost places. it is simply the perception of emergency providers that the public "has" to do anything.
 
It isn't the not moving that gets me, it is the slamming on the brakes RIGHT in front of the ambulance, or pulling into our lane, or pulling a U-TURN in front of the ambulance. Not moving isn't going to cause an accident unless the ambulance driver does something stupid. All of the other stuff can and will cause accidents that the ambulance driver can't avoid.

I have been in two "vehicle contacts" in my career, and they both happened in the same way. We were driving L&S down a straight road without any traffic signals affecting our travel when a car to our right pulled into our lane. On the first one there was only paint damage. On the second one my partner's quick reaction probably saved the life of the kid who pulled in front of us, and saved me from injury. If my partner had swerved any later, or the kid had pulled out a second later we would have slammed into the driver's side door at 35mph (the speed limit BTW).

In some areas, L&S are going to be useless. There is not enough traffic or traffic signals to significantly affect response times. In areas with high traffic and multiple traffic signals I believe that L&S can reduce response times. The key is figuring out when it is and isn't appropriate to use them. When they are used is going to be different in the middle of NYC than it is going to be in Wyoming.
 
condiser the OPALS study as I suggested on how much ALS does for respiratory distress.

What does it say about someone with an arterial bleed? What does it say about someone who calls because he has chest pains, and enters cardiac arrest a minute or two before you arrive?

The point is that your argument is flawed because it assumes we can never get there in time, which is false. When a founding premise for an argument is false, everything built on it is flawed, to say the least.
 
Bleeding control is taught to Boy Scouts. An ambulance is probably not gonna be the deciding factor here.

In 10 years of EMS I can count on my fingers the the number of times I've encountered a true periarrest pt on initial contact, and even then some of them have gone ahead and died prior to being able to intervene. Witnessed arrest while enroute? 3 total. It's andectotal, but study results would pr
obably be similar.

Speaking of flawed arguments, what's the ratio of patients saved by the small time reduction of a code 3 response, vs the number if people injured and killed by those same code 3 responses? Food for thought.
 
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lightsandsirens5 said:
I would also question the need for a command vehicle to be on scene THAT quickly for a fire. I understand that command is needed, however, the whole fire service is built around command and an engine officer is fully capable of assuming command at a normal sized structure fire.

Why would it be questionable for a command vehicle to respond quickly to a fire? In any area I've lived in, a battalion chief goes Code 3 on every fire. Are they supposed to respond non-code because an engine company Captain is on scene? Didn't appear that he was responding "THAT quickly" to me. He was in an SUV, not an ambulance, engine or truck. While an engine company has a Captain available to run command, it takes one more person out of the equation to fight fire and perform rescues. A battalion chief is also going to have much more experience to handle the command duties at a major event. I can run an EMS MCI, and have, but I would much rather an EMS command unit be there to do it.
 
Bleeding control is taught to Boy Scouts. An ambulance is probably not gonna be the deciding factor here.

In 10 years of EMS I can count on my fingers the the number of times I've encountered a true periarrest pt on initial contact, and even then some of them have gone ahead and died prior to being able to intervene. Witnessed arrest while enroute? 3 total. It's andectotal, but study results would pr
obably be similar.

Speaking of flawed arguments, what's the ratio of patients saved by the small time reduction of a code 3 response, vs the number if people injured and killed by those same code 3 responses? Food for thought.

I think a lot of that depends on where you live. In Tyler, there isn't a whole lot of traffic and the coverage is probably pretty good. Now try a city like Los Angeles, Dallas, NYC, Las Vegas, etc. The solution to abolishing Code 3 would be to build and staff more stations to increase non-code responses. How many taxpayers are going to support more government spending just to get rid of lights and sirens? In my opinion, a heavier emphasis on quality Code 3 driving training and skills would go along way. Installing a dashcam on all ambulances would also hold crews accountable. Refresher training, other than watching a video every year or two, that would include EVOC trainers going on rides would help too. Most EMS agencies do little EVOC training after you're first hired and most crews are out of sight, out of mind until they get in a wreck.
 
Bleeding control is taught to Boy Scouts. An ambulance is probably not gonna be the deciding factor here.

In 10 years of EMS I can count on my fingers the the number of times I've encountered a true periarrest pt on initial contact, and even then some of them have gone ahead and died prior to being able to intervene. Witnessed arrest while enroute? 3 total. It's andectotal, but study results would pr
obably be similar.

Speaking of flawed arguments, what's the ratio of patients saved by the small time reduction of a code 3 response, vs the number if people injured and killed by those same code 3 responses? Food for thought.

That'd be great if there's a Boy Scout conveniently around every bleeding person. Is that true where you live?

And you've proven my point. My point was that the argument was flawed because it assumes that a Code 3 response never makes a difference, therefore it is absolutely not necessary. You've just said that in your experience, it apparently has made a difference. That's my point. Since it can make a difference, it is false to say it never makes a difference, and any arguments or statements based on that are therefore flawed.

Regarding your food for thought, I can't chew on nothing.

Ultimately, in my opinion, the problem is not with emergency drivers, it's with civilian drivers (by which I mean everyone driving a regular non-emergency vehicle who gets in the way of an emergency vehicle operating in emergency mode). I don't think it's right that emergency services should have to risk patient outcome—even for a small percent of patients—just because some drivers are too stupid to safely get out the way. And I know there are some bad emergency drivers out there, too. All around, more and better education is the best solution to this problem, in my opinion.
 
Double post
 
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The point I'm making about bleeding control is, you should be able to coach direct pressure and torniquet use over the phone.

Stop drinking the kool-aid. "Even if it only saves a few" is not how medicine is practiced, and a bogus argument to most of us. A few patients might have irreversible angioedema and die from ACE inhibitors. Does that mean I withhold this medication if it benefits the vast majority of patients with the condition it treats, and the patient may have a worse outcome without it, because "if only one life is saved".

Do I think code 3 driving should be eliminated completely? I don't know. My gut feeling is no, but it needs to be drasticly reduced, and the rediculous overtriage of EMD taken care of. Educating civilian drivers is tilting at windmills. We can't even stop folks from driving drunk, despite obvious negative consequences to them directly. Do you think they give a crap about the guy down the street having an MI?

Again, is saving one 60 year old because of code 3 response worth running over a 3 year old going to an overtriaged call?
 
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The point I'm making about bleeding control is, you should be able to coach direct pressure and torniquet use over the phone.
If a person has been shot in the back, where do they put the tourniquet? How do they apply it if they're alone? It's also kind of hard to apply much direct pressure to your own back. And most people don't carry a tourniquet around with them on a regular basis (and to address the point you're about to make: not everybody wears a belt or shoes with laces, either).

Stop drinking the kool-aid. "Even if it only saves a few" is not how medicine is practiced, and a bogus argument to most of us. A few patients might have irreversible angioedema and die from ACE inhibitors. Does that mean I withhold this medication if it benefits the vast majority of patients, and the patient may have a worse outcome, because "if only one life is saved".

Do I think code 3 driving should be eliminated completely? I don't know. My gut feeling is no, but it needs to be drasticly reduced, and the rediculous overtriage of EMD taken care of. Educating civilian drivers is tilting at windmills. We can't even stop folks from driving drunk, despite obvious negative consequences to them directly. Do you think they give a crap about the guy down the street having an MI?
I only said it was a better solution. I did not discuss its practicality. But if you honestly believe that better driver training and education would not be of any benefit whatsoever, go ahead and say so.

Again, is saving one 60 year old because of code 3 response worth running over a 3 year old going to an overtriaged call?
Well, if one 3-y/o gets run over on the way to every 60-y/o, then no, it's not worth it. Is that the case?

There's a chance I might run over a 3-y/o next time I go out to buy groceries. There's also a chance my family will starve to death if I never go out to buy groceries ever again because I'm scared to take a chance on running over a 3-y/o. Should I let my family starve to death?

I'm not sure what you mean by "overtriage". If the 911 operator gets more information, they might be able to make a better assessment of whether or not an emergency response is needed, and if that happens, perhaps they can reduce the number of non-essential emergency responses. One county near me was experimenting with that recently (I don't know how it's worked out). I think the problem is undertriaging, not over-, but perhaps I don't understand how you're using the word.
 
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