It clearly says that if you have red light you must stop and make sure the intersection is clear. Watching the video, the crew didn't make full stop at many of red light intersection and if they hit that taxi they would be at fault. If that was my crew, they would be reprimanded for their code 3 driving.
How NOT to drive Code 3.
- Thread starter LonghornMedic
- Start date
It clearly says that if you have red light you must stop and make sure the intersection is clear. Watching the video, the crew didn't make full stop at many of red light intersection and if they hit that taxi they would be at fault. If that was my crew, they would be reprimanded for their code 3 driving.
firecoins
IFT Puppet
- 3,880
- 18
- 38
Sure many crews make a rolling stops at clear interections. They only have to look 1 direction at the 1 way streets. So they should wait an extra 2 seconds to satisfy the EMTs not from NYC watching you tube. Fantastic. I love it already.
Come to NYC and reprimand every EMS, firetruck and police car that does that. You will be repremanding the same people several times an emergency run. Good luck with it.
OP
OP
LonghornMedic
Forum Lieutenant
- 162
- 0
- 0
During emergency operations every EMS response vehicle must be operated in such a manner and at such a speed upon approaching an intersection, controlled by a traffic control device so as to permit safe passage through the intersection. Before entering the intersection the operator must reduce the speed of the vehicle to be able to stop the vehicle if necessary to permit such safe passage. They should come to a complete stop if they have a red signal or stop sign.
I counted 10 clear violations and couple more borderline ones.
Each EMS response vehicle operator must recognize that the emergency vehicle has no absolute right of way, it is qualified and cannot be taken forcefully.
At 4:30 through 4:50, they clearly pushed 3 taxis into traffic at a red light.
I still can't understand how anyone here that works in public safety can justify this kind of driving behavior. This isn't a NYC thing. I don't care where you work, that kind of driving isn't acceptable. According to NY state law it isn't acceptable. According to National Highway Traffic Safety Administration's EVOC curriculum it isn't acceptable. Yes, it is our job to get there quickly. That is why the law gives us the privilege to use lights and sirens and to drive faster than everyone else, within reason. But if you wreck, how does that help the patient?
I counted 10 clear violations and couple more borderline ones.
Each EMS response vehicle operator must recognize that the emergency vehicle has no absolute right of way, it is qualified and cannot be taken forcefully.
At 4:30 through 4:50, they clearly pushed 3 taxis into traffic at a red light.
I still can't understand how anyone here that works in public safety can justify this kind of driving behavior. This isn't a NYC thing. I don't care where you work, that kind of driving isn't acceptable. According to NY state law it isn't acceptable. According to National Highway Traffic Safety Administration's EVOC curriculum it isn't acceptable. Yes, it is our job to get there quickly. That is why the law gives us the privilege to use lights and sirens and to drive faster than everyone else, within reason. But if you wreck, how does that help the patient?
Last edited by a moderator:
JPINFV
Gadfly
- 12,681
- 197
- 63
2 seconds also doesn't affect outcomes. Additionally, if 2 seconds mattered, much more time (and money) could be saved by requiring crews to stay inside the ambulance at all times short of food and restroom. No sleeping. No watching TV at the station. Just sitting in the front cab waiting for the next call.
18G
Paramedic
- 1,368
- 12
- 38
I didn't see anything dramatically wrong with their driving other than they should have taken more time to slow at the intersections especially considering how ppl drive in NYC. Coming to a complete stop is near impossible in NYC... you know how many intersections there are and how close together? They would spend more time stopped than moving.
I've driven in NYC several times and traffic is crazy. You either drive like the rest or you will congest traffic and have 100 cars honking at you and even more middle fingers waving at ya. I know that may not make sense for those who never experienced NYC traffic flow but its true. You have to be an evasive and aggressive (yet safe) driver to navigate NYC in a car yet alone in an emergency vehicle.
I've driven in NYC several times and traffic is crazy. You either drive like the rest or you will congest traffic and have 100 cars honking at you and even more middle fingers waving at ya. I know that may not make sense for those who never experienced NYC traffic flow but its true. You have to be an evasive and aggressive (yet safe) driver to navigate NYC in a car yet alone in an emergency vehicle.
Bullets
Forum Knucklehead
- 1,600
- 222
- 63
I think its interesting that it says they "should" come to a complete stop. our policy says we "must" come to a complete stop
18G
Paramedic
- 1,368
- 12
- 38
Every State's law regarding intersections may be slightly different... again, you can't compare driving in Smalltownville to driving in NYC.
JJR512
Forum Deputy Chief
- 1,336
- 4
- 36
I think there are always going to be differences between what's done in the field versus what the policy or law says.
Should you come to a complete stop at all stop signs and red lights? Yes. It it absolutely necessary to come to a complete stop, if you can clearly see far down the cross street, and it's quite obvious that either nobody is coming, or any cars there stopped or otherwise yielding to you? No, not in my opinion. But this comes with the caveat that you will be held at fault if you're wrong and something bad happens.
I am reminded of when I used to drive around downtown Baltimore, MD, and the surrounding area, working for a hospital-based critical care transport company. My experience prior to that came from commercial BLS driving, i.e., driving for comfort, not speed. Compared to how I saw 911-experienced drivers driving, I maintained a large clearance between me and the vehicle in front of me, and made all turns and lane changes more slowly and cautiously. But this had some odd side effects. Primarily, because I wasn't riding the *** of the car in front of me, blowing my siren and horn up his tailpipe, the drivers in front of me seemed to assume that despite the lights and sirens, I wasn't in any particular real hurry, so they weren't in a real hurry to get out of my way. I guess they thought I was trying to not excessively exceed the speed limit or something, since I was 3-4 car lengths back and matching their speed.
My point with that last paragraph is to illustrate that in emergency driving, you do need to drive with some aggressiveness. I don't think I had enough. There is a fine line between being aggressive enough to get people to safely yield to you, and being too aggressive that people panic and do stupid things and accidents happen. Was that line crossed in the video, regardless of what the law says? Clearly, some of you think it was, and some of you think it wasn't. Personally, I think you can take a few moments and have some constructive criticism about those moments, but overall, I don't think it was bad.
Should you come to a complete stop at all stop signs and red lights? Yes. It it absolutely necessary to come to a complete stop, if you can clearly see far down the cross street, and it's quite obvious that either nobody is coming, or any cars there stopped or otherwise yielding to you? No, not in my opinion. But this comes with the caveat that you will be held at fault if you're wrong and something bad happens.
I am reminded of when I used to drive around downtown Baltimore, MD, and the surrounding area, working for a hospital-based critical care transport company. My experience prior to that came from commercial BLS driving, i.e., driving for comfort, not speed. Compared to how I saw 911-experienced drivers driving, I maintained a large clearance between me and the vehicle in front of me, and made all turns and lane changes more slowly and cautiously. But this had some odd side effects. Primarily, because I wasn't riding the *** of the car in front of me, blowing my siren and horn up his tailpipe, the drivers in front of me seemed to assume that despite the lights and sirens, I wasn't in any particular real hurry, so they weren't in a real hurry to get out of my way. I guess they thought I was trying to not excessively exceed the speed limit or something, since I was 3-4 car lengths back and matching their speed.
My point with that last paragraph is to illustrate that in emergency driving, you do need to drive with some aggressiveness. I don't think I had enough. There is a fine line between being aggressive enough to get people to safely yield to you, and being too aggressive that people panic and do stupid things and accidents happen. Was that line crossed in the video, regardless of what the law says? Clearly, some of you think it was, and some of you think it wasn't. Personally, I think you can take a few moments and have some constructive criticism about those moments, but overall, I don't think it was bad.
sir.shocksalot
Forum Captain
- 381
- 15
- 18
I think many posters here haven't been in, or lost a friend in an ambulance accident. As Longhorn said, Code-3 driving is by far the most dangerous thing that we do, and the one where you will be held most liable for. Yes you can blow through an intersection, yes you can oppose traffic, yes you can force other vehicles through a red light, but in every case you can be held liable both criminally and civilly for that. If you force someone into traffic as this crew did, and they get hit, they can sue you for damages, and they will win. This has happened at several companies I have worked for. Also keep in mind that if you cause an accident, you are required to stop and render aid; so if you kill someone's 2 year old who is in the back seat of their car, prepare to face the parent and attempt to resuscitate someone that YOU killed.
People will drive emergent however they want to, just keep in mind the danger you are putting everyone in when you drive recklessly.
People will drive emergent however they want to, just keep in mind the danger you are putting everyone in when you drive recklessly.
I'm sorry, but who gives a :censored::censored::censored::censored: if they didn't stop at every red light? Can anyone here actually say that they have stopped at EVERY red light when they were going code 3?
Oh and be honest to that question, take your egos out of the picture.
Oh and be honest to that question, take your egos out of the picture.
adamjh3
Forum Culinary Powerhouse
- 1,873
- 6
- 0
Yup, I can.
But I've only driven code outside of CEVO class once, so, y'know, the results might be a little skewed
EMS/LEO505
Forum Lieutenant
- 139
- 0
- 0
Outbac1
Forum Asst. Chief
- 681
- 1
- 18
I was expecting a lot worse when I watched the video. They should have used more caution at some of the red lights but otherwise not bad. They certainly were not "flying" thru traffic.
When I give instructions to my driving partner I never say "GO" or "NO". as they can be confused. I always say "Clear" or "Stop". It must work, no hits yet.
When I give instructions to my driving partner I never say "GO" or "NO". as they can be confused. I always say "Clear" or "Stop". It must work, no hits yet.
abckidsmom
Dances with Patients
- 3,380
- 5
- 36
Having worked in urban and rural environments, I can say honestly that it is my goal to stop at every red light and stop sign, clear the intersection, making eye contact with any drivers who had the right of way, and then only proceeding when traffic is stopped. If I didn't stop, it was a mistake, and if I had a vehicle contact during a situation like that, I would accept responsibility with no excuses.
Because this is a painful and extremely time-consuming way to respond, I tend to not transport lights and sirens ever, and I pine for my days in a system with priority dispatching.
DrParasite
The fire extinguisher is not just for show
- 6,337
- 2,199
- 113
and when your baby is not breathing, and it's taking forever for the emergency responders to arrive, and you ask what took them so long to get there, how will you respond when they say "we got caught in traffic, and you didn't want us to use lights or sirens"?
So when person is having SOB or CVA you say hold on do not die, we are stuck in traffic and will be there in 30 min?
Interestingly enough, what do you plan to do for my baby that I cannot? Put her on oxygen or a backboard?