How NOT to drive Code 3.

[LonghornMedic]

don't break your arm patting yourself on the back...

hmm, on your video I counted maybe 10 other cars on the road. I saw no pedestrians, few cabs, and very little traffic. Considering I have seen emergency vehicles in Vegas driving on the wrong side of the divided roadways when congestion causes travel to be impossible, I am going to say that your video is shot during ideal conditions, when there is no traffic on the road.

you can't compare midtown Manhattan during the daytime to a drive on the strip at 4am when there is no one else on the road.

We are allowed to oppose traffic by agency policy and state law. The way the streets are built with concrete medians, there is little choice. I have driven the strip from Sahara to Flamingo on a Friday night opposing traffic the whole way. When they see you coming at them, they see you sooner than someone who isn't looking in their rear view mirror and move over. But when we do have congestion similar to what is on the NYC video, there is no way our agency would tolerate reckless driving like that. I don't push traffic into intersections. It's dangerous and stupid. I sure as hell don't blow red lights. You criticize the video I posted. But with the light traffic, where it would be easy to blow red lights, the crew still came to complete stops and cleared the intersection before proceeding. How this crew drove at night in light traffic is the same way they would in daylight with heavy traffic. That's how it is taught. It is the same way it's taught here with the agency I work with in Texas. You are more likely to get sued for causing an accident than for malpractice.

 

[JPINFV]

Annals of Emergency Medicine, December 1991
Robert A. De Lorenzo, MD, EMT-P; Mark A. Eilers, MD, FACEP

Lights and Siren: A Review of Emergency Vehicle Warning Systems

...

Much (not all) of the problems with l/s response can be attributed to idiot civilians not knowing how to react when they see l/s and therefor shouldn't have their license in the first place. Period.

"To be effective, a siren signal must compete with the masking noise generated by the road, car radios, and ventilation fans and must overcome modern sound insulation techniques. A US Department of Transportation (DOT) report (44, 47) showed that over a siren's effective frequency range, the average signal attenuation (through closed-windowed automobile bodies combined with typical masking noise) resulted in a maximal siren effective distance of siren penetration of only 8 to 12 m at urban intersections. Only modest improvement in the situation occurred at suburban intersections and straight-ahead highway conditions. These findings have been corroborated (46,48), and from the data a maximum safe entry speed of 10 mph (15 km/hr) for intersections is recommended (49). The Department of Transportation report concluded that sirens will never become an effective warning device.

...



Summary

...

Fourth, several studies clearly demonstrate that the siren is a severely limited warning device, effective only at very short ranges and very low speeds. Differences in siren mode do not appear to be important."

http://www.emergencydispatch.org/articles/warningsystems1.htm

Additionally, in terms of the incident at 1:10, notice the big garbage truck soaking up the siren and blocking the lights on the right side at that intersection.

 

[JPINFV]

Considering I have seen emergency vehicles in Vegas driving on the wrong side of the divided roadways when congestion causes travel to be impossible, I am going to say that your video is shot during ideal conditions, when there is no traffic on the road.

Are we talking about divided road like a road with islands with constant breaks for left hand turns or divided roads like an interstate freeway?

 

[firecoins]

I was going viewing some videos on Youtube and came across this one. I understand NYC is a busy and congested city, but this kind of driving is unreal. I wonder if this agency puts their medics through any kind of EVOC course. If they do, they need some remedial training in a bad way. Make sure to take a look at the scene at time 1:10.

I find nothing wrong with this video. This is how all ambulance, police cars and fire trucks drive in NYC. It is the only way to get through NYC traffic. The crew does not need remedial training. That is how one drives code 3 in NYC. St Vinnies EMT and medics all had EVOC several times over.

Traffic regularly gets pushed into intersections in NYC by police, fire and EMS. It is not specific to this crew. ANyone who thinks that only that crew does it, needs to come to NYC and take a look.

The St. Vinnie's truck was driving across 42nd street. It taks 35 to 40 minutes to drive across during midday traffic.

St. Vincent hospital closed earlier this year. I took my medic class there in 2008. All EMS personnel had been in EMS for years prior to working there otherwise, they could not have been there.

 

[JPINFV]

Traffic regularly gets pushed into intersections in NYC by police, fire and EMS. It is not specific to this crew. ANyone who thinks that only that crew does it, needs to come to NYC and take a look.

The only thing that matters is if it's good practice to force cars into intersections against red lights. Whether everyone else is doing it or not is irrelevant.

 

[JJR512]

They blew through numerous red lights. There was no communication, i.e. "Trafffic" or "Clear right." That taxi cab was a glaring example of that.

I agree with this part, to a certain extent. The extent is that the driver isn't always going to have someone in the passenger seat to assist him with traffic spotting. When there is someone there, though, it's more efficient to use the help that's available, of course.

They pushed traffic into intersections at red lights. (Proper Code 3 driving indicates you at least shut your siren off, if not your lights too, until the light turns green when it's that congested)

I've never liked the concept of turning off lights and sirens. In my opinion, that makes it seem to other drivers like either the call was cancelled, or we were just joyriding. I like to keep the lights on at all times as a reminder that yes, we really are still on an emergency call. If we can't move, and nobody can get out of our way, I don't mind shutting the siren off as a courtesy to other drivers. In my opinion, leaving the lights on and siren off says, "Hey, we're still here, still on an emergency call, we'd like to get through, but we recognize it's currently impossible for you to get out of our way, so we're not going to blare our siren and horn up your *** when it's not going to accomplish anything. But don't forget about us, if you see you have a chance to move safely out of our way, we'd really appreciate you taking that opportunity to clear the way. Thanks a bunch."

 

[firecoins]

The only thing that matters is if it's good practice to force cars into intersections against red lights. Whether everyone else is doing it or not is irrelevant.

1. Its very relevant in NYC. Its part of the traffic pattern. The traffic pattern in Manhattan is not like Las Vegas or San Diego or small town USA. What is good in these locations is not good for NYC and vice versa.

2. Force is a bad word. These cars do so voluntarily.

3. Taxi cabs are very expereienced at doing this. They prefer to do it as it speed them up and they make more money.

 

[LonghornMedic]

I agree with this part, to a certain extent. The extent is that the driver isn't always going to have someone in the passenger seat to assist him with traffic spotting. When there is someone there, though, it's more efficient to use the help that's available, of course.


I've never liked the concept of turning off lights and sirens. In my opinion, that makes it seem to other drivers like either the call was cancelled, or we were just joyriding. I like to keep the lights on at all times as a reminder that yes, we really are still on an emergency call. If we can't move, and nobody can get out of our way, I don't mind shutting the siren off as a courtesy to other drivers. In my opinion, leaving the lights on and siren off says, "Hey, we're still here, still on an emergency call, we'd like to get through, but we recognize it's currently impossible for you to get out of our way, so we're not going to blare our siren and horn up your *** when it's not going to accomplish anything. But don't forget about us, if you see you have a chance to move safely out of our way, we'd really appreciate you taking that opportunity to clear the way. Thanks a bunch."

That is what I do. Some people I have worked with choose to shut everything down. Their logic is that it is still pressuring people to go into the intersection. But my logic is the same as yours. I want them to know I'm still en route to a call and to be aware of me. As soon as the light goes green the siren comes on.

 

[LonghornMedic]

1. Its very relevant in NYC. Its part of the traffic pattern. The traffic pattern in Manhattan is not like Las Vegas or San Diego or small town USA. What is good in these locations is not good for NYC and vice versa.

2. Force is a bad word. These cars do so voluntarily.

3. Taxi cabs are very expereienced at doing this. They prefer to do it as it speed them up and they make more money.

Force is the perfect word. If you weren't sitting there, riding up the bumper of the car in front of you, working the siren across all the tones and using the airhorn they wouldn't feel the pressure to get out of your way.

While you condone this, I can guarantee you that not one emergency driving expert in this country would agree with you. And unless state law says you can do all the things you see on this video or you say happens on a daily basis, I feel sorry for the poor :censored::censored::censored::censored::censored::censored::censored: who causes a wreck and has to sit on the witness stand in court trying to convince a jury "that's how we all have done it for years."

 

[firecoins]

Force is the perfect word. If you weren't sitting there, riding up the bumper of the car in front of you, working the siren across all the tones and using the airhorn they wouldn't feel the pressure to get out of your way.

While you condone this, I can guarantee you that not one emergency driving expert in this country would agree with you. And unless state law says you can do all the things you see on this video or you say happens on a daily basis, I feel sorry for the poor :censored::censored::censored::censored::censored::censored::censored: who causes a wreck and has to sit on the witness stand in court trying to convince a jury "that's how we all have done it for years."

Okay. Come to NY and show the NYPD, FDNY and all EMS units how to drive in NYC. Your the expert. I will make any calls you want. I have the phone numbers. What you need set up.

 

[JPINFV]

I didn't realize that basic physics mechanics changed based on geographic location. What would have happened if the Sprinter at the start got t-boned going into the intersection? Do you think that the ambulance crew would share zero responsibility for that accident?

 

[spike91]

don't break your arm patting yourself on the back...

hmm, on your video I counted maybe 10 other cars on the road. I saw no pedestrians, few cabs, and very little traffic. Considering I have seen emergency vehicles in Vegas driving on the wrong side of the divided roadways when congestion causes travel to be impossible, I am going to say that your video is shot during ideal conditions, when there is no traffic on the road.

you can't compare midtown Manhattan during the daytime to a drive on the strip at 4am when there is no one else on the road.

+1 for the much needed reality check.

 

[aewin90]

One of the things that I stress to anyone I precept is that Code 3 driving is without a doubt THE most dangerous thing we do.

Done properly, Code 3 driving is safer than your commute to work. Do not race, clear your intersections, pass on the left, and assume that everyone is an idiot and you will be fine.

 

[LonghornMedic]

Done properly, Code 3 driving is safer than your commute to work. Do not race, clear your intersections, pass on the left, and assume that everyone is an idiot and you will be fine.

In other words, don't do what the people on the video in NYC do.

 

[LonghornMedic]

Okay. Come to NY and show the NYPD, FDNY and all EMS units how to drive in NYC. Your the expert. I will make any calls you want. I have the phone numbers. What you need set up.

You don't get it. Proper and safe emergency driving is universal. Driving Code 3 is no different in NYC than it is in Dallas than it is in L.A. Blowing red lights and all the other stuff talked about on this thread is dangerous no matter where you run calls. I'm happy you "have the phone numbers." Good for you. We'll chalk this up to agree to disagree.

 

[Bullets]

BS, if given the option, NYC yellow cabs, delivery trucks, ect would ignore every single traffic signal in the City. when they get "forced" into an intersection, opposing traffic, if there is any, is going maybe 25 mph, but probably more like 10-15, especially on the short blocks

Passing on the right throught the firelanes at intersections is allowed, encouraged, taught and usually the only viable way to avoid traffic. And the vehicles in front have the option of procceeding through a red light , they are not forced. Its not like we jump out and hold a gun to their heads

While you may not have heard them clear each other, i dont find a problem with this. i only say something if there is a hazard. if its clear i dont say anything

You cant compare central Texas or Mississippi to downtown Manhattan.

 

[mct601]

BS, if given the option, NYC yellow cabs, delivery trucks, ect would ignore every single traffic signal in the City. when they get "forced" into an intersection, opposing traffic, if there is any, is going maybe 25 mph, but probably more like 10-15, especially on the short blocks

Passing on the right throught the firelanes at intersections is allowed, encouraged, taught and usually the only viable way to avoid traffic. And the vehicles in front have the option of procceeding through a red light , they are not forced. Its not like we jump out and hold a gun to their heads

While you may not have heard them clear each other, i dont find a problem with this. i only say something if there is a hazard. if its clear i dont say anything

You cant compare central Texas or Mississippi to downtown Manhattan.

You can't, but I'm just saying what the guys have been saying - safe driving is safe driving. Manhattan is not a different country or culture. We are not comparing MS and TX to Australian or Canadian EMS. Although from my understanding you guys up north like to believe it is infact a different country.

 

[looker]

hmmmm, at 1:10, a yellow cab cuts them off..... and that's their fault? everyone else stops, it's clear, and maybe the cabby blew a stop sign?

They had red light, they had to make sure all other traffic was stopped before entering the intersection. It's clearly at 1:10 they didn't do it and some other time as well. If accident happened they would be found at fault.

 

[LonghornMedic]

This is straight from the New York Dept of Health regarding The Operation Of Emergency Medical Services Vehicles.


NYS — EMS POLICY

Every EMS response vehicle must be driven safely at all times, usually not exceeding the speed limit. Drivers exercising any of the V&T Law privileges must do so cautiously and with due regard for the safety of all others.

Types of Responses -

Non-emergency Operations - anytime an EMS response vehicle is out of the station on an assignment other than an emergency run, shall be considered to be a routine operation. All routine operations will be considered non-emergency and shall be made using headlights only - no light bars, beacons, corner or grill flashers or sirens shall be used. During a non-emergency operation, the ambulance shall be driven in a safe manner and is not authorized to use any emergency vehicle privileges as provided for in the V&T Law.

Emergency Operations - shall be limited to any response to the scene or the hospital where the driver of the emergency vehicle actually perceives, based on instructions received or information available to him or her, the call to be a true emergency. EMD dispatch classifications, indicating a true or potentially true emergency should be used to determine the initial response type. Patient assessments made by a certified care provider, should determine the response type (usually C or U as an emergency) to the hospital. In order for a response to be a true or potentially true emergency, the operator or certified care provider must have an articulable reason to believe that emergency operations may make a difference in patient outcome. During an emergency operation headlights and all emergency lights shall be illuminated and the siren used as necessary.

Each EMS response vehicle operator must recognize that the emergency vehicle has no absolute right of way, it is qualified and cannot be taken forcefully8.

During emergency operations every EMS response vehicle must be operated in such a manner and at such a speed upon approaching an intersection, controlled by a traffic control device so as to permit safe passage through the intersection. Before entering the intersection the operator must reduce the speed of the vehicle to be able to stop the vehicle if necessary to permit such safe passage. They should come to a complete stop if they have a red signal or stop sign.

Every EMS response vehicle must stop upon encountering a stopped school bus with red lights flashing; any non controlled railroad crossing or railroad crossing at which safety gates and/or warning lights are activated or if requested by a police officer.

EMS response vehicles are discouraged from using escorts or traveling in convoys due to the extreme dangers associated with multiple emergency vehicles operating in close proximity to each other. For the purpose of this policy statement and any developed from it emergency vehicles should maintain a spacing of at least 300 - 400 feet between them in ideal driving conditions and more when visibility is limited or road conditions are less than ideal.10

At emergency scenes the use of emergency warning lights must be governed by the need to protect the safety of all personnel, patients and the public. In some cases the use of emergency lights should be minimized.

 

[firecoins]

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Each EMS response vehicle operator must recognize that the emergency vehicle has no absolute right of way, it is qualified and cannot be taken forcefully8.

[.

If your video the St Vinnie's crew stopped at a stop light. They did no force their way trough it. Epic Fail.

Again your internet expert. Come up and demonstrate your super driving abilities for us.