How Far is Too Far...

[DesertMedic66]

There's nothing saying that what's considered standard practice isn't just stupid. If someone has a valid need for a lightbar, then they have a valid need for a take home car provided by their agency.

but there is nothing saying that is stupid (I know there are stuff that is stupid so no need to post examples.) yes they have a valid need for a take home car provided by their agency but with the way the economy is, is that really practical? whats cheaper for the company, buying a car for employees to take home or just having employees put lightbars on their own vehicle? Our supervisors are rolling around town in cars that were donated by employees some years ago.

 

[Handsome Rob]

I am a real fan of discipline, and I would like to see more time spent on task when not on calls, and not just on facebook, but the rank stuff is a load of crap.

I will respect you because you are respectable, not because you have been there 6 months more than me, and for sure not because you've passed some regurgitate and forget it test generated by some too big for it's britches IFT company.

I attended a week of continuing ed at a fire department near here when they were running a rookie school. Whenever they walked down the hallway, in their suits, with shiny shoes, every. single. one. of the 30 or so guys gave a "Good Morning, ma'am" every time they passed anyone.

This level of indoctrination does not show respect. It's uncomfortable, humiliating and bizarre.

Real respect is earned, not demanded.

Interesting. Why is calling someone sir or ma'am humiliating? I agree that respect is earned, I'm just struck by the strength of opposition here.

Also, to be fair, this company actually opposes the whole "seniority" bit. The testing and rank structure is based off of performance and medical knowledge regardless of your lenth of employement.

 

[abckidsmom]

Interesting. Why is calling someone sir or ma'am humiliating? I agree that respect is earned, I'm just struck by the strength of opposition here.

Also, to be fair, this company actually opposes the whole "seniority" bit. The testing and rank structure is based off of performance and medical knowledge regardless of your lenth of employement.

How is a general person supposed to react, in a casual environment, when a line of 30 identically dressed men in suits murmur a 45 second "g'morning ma'am"? Most people are extremely uncomfortable.

I tried hard to look each one in the eye and greet them, but when you're passing for the third time in a day, it's just ridiculous, and you laugh. Or, I did, anyway. Maybe I'm just immature, but these guys are starting their careers as firefighters and they have to make *me* uncomfortable with their overwhelming greeting?

 

[usalsfyre]

Interesting. Why is calling someone sir or ma'am humiliating? I agree that respect is earned, I'm just struck by the strength of opposition here.

Also, to be fair, this company actually opposes the whole "seniority" bit. The testing and rank structure is based off of performance and medical knowledge regardless of your lenth of employement.

But why the paramilitary bit, other than whackers trying to feel important.

The whole thing has a the feel of...

 

[Handsome Rob]

But why the paramilitary bit, other than whackers trying to feel important.

The whole thing has a the feel of...

LMFOA...i dig it. I guess the paramilitary bit would be the result of people not listening to reasoning. From my understanding, the whole thing came about after the employees constantly gaffed off patient care and SOP's because they felt it was "just an IFT company"

 

[Gray]

Where respect is earned, respect is given. I was raised to call anyone who was my elder Sir or Ma'am. But calling someone Captain because they are some whacker who is on an ego trip due to him/her spending $4000 on custom crocodile skin Mangum boots would be over the top. If your being called Ma'am or Sir don't feel uncomfortable, take it as simple politeness and respect they are showing you.

 

[Handsome Robb]

I hate being called sir. Makes me feel old.

 

[Gray]

How is a general person supposed to react, in a casual environment, when a line of 30 identically dressed men in suits murmur a 45 second "g'morning ma'am"? Most people are extremely uncomfortable.

I tried hard to look each one in the eye and greet them, but when you're passing for the third time in a day, it's just ridiculous, and you laugh. Or, I did, anyway. Maybe I'm just immature, but these guys are starting their careers as firefighters and they have to make *me* uncomfortable with their overwhelming greeting?

LOL, I imagine that's a tough spot. I would of used humor. A simple 'At ease Gentlemen" would of gotten you off the hook and a few smiles and smirks.

 

[Handsome Rob]

the one thing I've noticed throughout all of the responses is that most people assume that because someone implements a structure or ranks system, that they are insecure a-holes, whackers (lol), or whatever. In general, it is quite apparent that either a) ost people in EMS HATE structured systems, or b) there is far too much misuse and abuse of titles in this industry. Or both. lol

 

[abckidsmom]

the one thing I've noticed throughout all of the responses is that most people assume that because someone implements a structure or ranks system, that they are insecure a-holes, whackers (lol), or whatever. In general, it is quite apparent that either a) ost people in EMS HATE structured systems, or b) there is far too much misuse and abuse of titles in this industry. Or both. lol

I just think that you can do structure without being ridiculous about it. EMS, the red-headed stepchild, is neither medicine nor public safety, neither military nor fire nor private business. Lots of independent thinking drives good providers of EMS, and those rigid kinds of thinking can squelch free thought.

 

[Handsome Rob]

I just think that you can do structure without being ridiculous about it. EMS, the red-headed stepchild, is neither medicine nor public safety, neither military nor fire nor private business. Lots of independent thinking drives good providers of EMS, and those rigid kinds of thinking can squelch free thought.

I agree, but this standpoint is based on the assumption that the employees are both capable (harsh, I know) and driven to free thought. I know we've all seen it; the EMT/Medic that just wants to do the bare minimum. In this case, by demanding so much more from each individual employee, the "bare minimum" becomes high enough not to kill all of the patients...

Case in point: one of the medics at this company absolutely refuses to engage EMT's in medical discussions, doesn't help out around station, etc. When dispatched to a CP call, no interventions were made AT ALL. The medic called 911 despite being less than a mile from a STEMI center. Bare minimum.

 

[abckidsmom]

I agree, but this standpoint is based on the assumption that the employees are both capable (harsh, I know) and driven to free thought. I know we've all seen it; the EMT/Medic that just wants to do the bare minimum. In this case, by demanding so much more from each individual employee, the "bare minimum" becomes high enough not to kill all of the patients...

Case in point: one of the medics at this company absolutely refuses to engage EMT's in medical discussions, doesn't help out around station, etc. When dispatched to a CP call, no interventions were made AT ALL. The medic called 911 despite being less than a mile from a STEMI center. Bare minimum.

All of these discussions come back to education because education is the problem. You can't solve an educational problem with a militaristic discipline.

Free thought is really mandatory for good medicine.

 

[Harvey]

Punitive Pushups? I'll have to respectfully decline. I'm not in the Marines anymore.

 

[Handsome Rob]

Punitive Pushups? I'll have to respectfully decline. I'm not in the Marines anymore.

Neither am I...but you do have to agree that pain retains, no?

 

[IAems]

You're right, but missing something

All of these discussions come back to education because education is the problem. You can't solve an educational problem with a militaristic discipline.

Free thought is really mandatory for good medicine.

It's not just an educational problem . . . it's a pride problem. Look at all these posts "just an IFT company", "IFT No", "for IFT, I'd laugh at you". I didn't realize IFT patients didn't require medical care. This community looks down on IFT company's (and I'm not saying that it's not generally justified to do so), but how is a supervisor supposed to instill a sense of pride in their IFT employees so they don't fall into the pitfall of burnout? The answer, I believe, is to make this job something that is difficult to accomplish and the best way to do that is through discipline. If they have pride, they will want to have greater medical knowledge, want to be further educated, and want to grow as providers, not for the company but for themselves, because, honestly, the mentality of "just IFT" kills patients. I've seen it.

 

[Handsome Rob]

It's not just an educational problem . . . it's a pride problem. Look at all these posts "just an IFT company", "IFT No", "for IFT, I'd laugh at you". I didn't realize IFT patients didn't require medical care. This community looks down on IFT company's (and I'm not saying that it's not generally justified to do so), but how is a supervisor supposed to instill a sense of pride in their IFT employees so they don't fall into the pitfall of burnout? The answer, I believe, is to make this job something that is difficult to accomplish and the best way to do that is through discipline. If they have pride, they will want to have greater medical knowledge, want to be further educated, and want to grow as providers, not for the company but for themselves, because, honestly, the mentality of "just IFT" kills patients. I've seen it.

Very well stated, sir. I'd work for you...lol

 

[JPINFV]

I hate being called sir. Makes me feel old.

Heck, at the current time I can see myself walking into a patient's room and saying, "Hi, I'm JPINFV and I'm going to be your doctor today." If they want to call me "Doctor" sure, but I didn't get into this field for a new salutation.

 

[JPINFV]

It's not just an educational problem . . . it's a pride problem. Look at all these posts "just an IFT company", "IFT No", "for IFT, I'd laugh at you". I didn't realize IFT patients didn't require medical care. This community looks down on IFT company's (and I'm not saying that it's not generally justified to do so), but how is a supervisor supposed to instill a sense of pride in their IFT employees so they don't fall into the pitfall of burnout? The answer, I believe, is to make this job something that is difficult to accomplish and the best way to do that is through discipline. If they have pride, they will want to have greater medical knowledge, want to be further educated, and want to grow as providers, not for the company but for themselves, because, honestly, the mentality of "just IFT" kills patients. I've seen it.

How is making employees go around calling people who've been around longer (or can I immediately test for higher "ranks?") instill either discipline or pride?

Also, I don't care if this is 911 or IFT. There's two ranks on the vast vast majority of EMS calls, the person in charge and the help, and the help doesn't need to be calling the person in charge "sir" or "ma'am."

 

[mycrofft]

Let the market decide.

(NOTE: SEE AERINSOL'S REPLY BELOW. MAKES ME RECONSIDER MY REPLY. NONETHELESS: )If they can attract and keep enough quality workers and the service they provide is superior, then why not? Discriminatory, personally destructive or illegal personel practices can be sorted out there or in court if need be. If people dlon't like their style, they won't hire on or won't stay. Personally, I wouldn't. Been there, done that, even military is rarely that stiff.

Strict structure does not mean hazing. Hazing is a separate issue involving physical and/or mental abuse, and the worst I ever saw (as an EMS worker) involved fraternities. Doing things to make people follow a paramilitary norm can easily be overdone, but you figure out if it is one dope or the whole system, then either fight the dope, or quit.

Flip flop: why have uniforms? Why not let workers bring whatever tools they want and use them on pts? Why not let them drink on duty if it's done responsibly? Bring your dog on standbys? Use code 3 ad lib/prn? We can trust them, they're professionals....

 

[Aerin-Sol]

It's not just an educational problem . . . it's a pride problem. Look at all these posts "just an IFT company", "IFT No", "for IFT, I'd laugh at you". I didn't realize IFT patients didn't require medical care. This community looks down on IFT company's (and I'm not saying that it's not generally justified to do so), but how is a supervisor supposed to instill a sense of pride in their IFT employees so they don't fall into the pitfall of burnout? The answer, I believe, is to make this job something that is difficult to accomplish and the best way to do that is through discipline. If they have pride, they will want to have greater medical knowledge, want to be further educated, and want to grow as providers, not for the company but for themselves, because, honestly, the mentality of "just IFT" kills patients. I've seen it.

If you want an IFT company that people can take pride in, then have hiring standards. Have nice uniforms. Have well-trained supervisors and managers who encourage their employees. Have continuing education. Have tuition reimbursement.

Don't let the company be ran by middle-aged men with highly-inflated senses of importance (and low levels of everything else: manners, education, management skill, business sense) who insist on being addressed as "captain" or "rear admiral" or whatever. If that's the only way your supervisors can "instill a sense of pride" in their employees, then you need new employees, new supervisors, or both. Creating artificial difficulty doesn't instill discipline or desire for growth; it instills hatred for middle management who create needless hoops in a misguided attempt to improve their employees via mandatory jumping.