Help with A & P

[johnmedic]

This will sound like a cop-out, but buy both! Seriously, then you'll find out which one you like. & you'll have both so if you get lost on a subject/system in one book, then try reading that sections in the other book. It helps alot to read it in different wording sometimes. Just know that for a lot of students, studying consistently is "really really hard". So take their opinions with a grain of salt.

 

[systemet]

I was simply making a comment in regards to the fact that both Veneficus and I have had upper level anatomy education (he's a med student and I was told by a professor that I used to work with that I had to more or less audit a med school anatomy class as part of my employment). In comparison, undergraduate A+P even if taught by the most sadistic professor out there is a joke. For someone with no science or medical background, undergrad A+P can be daunting but it should not be as hard as people make it out to be. Most people who whine about that are poor students and don't want to put the effort into the course. It's just so much easier for them to whine, moan and complain. It's the same reason we see EMT-B courses described as "brutal", "tough" and "demanding" on this forum.

I don't think I made my point very well. It's important to me that you realise it wasn't a personal attack -- in the short time I've been here, I can see that you're a significant contributor to the forum, and a wealth of knowledge.

I was trying (however inelegantly) to express the opinions:

(1) Not all undergraduate courses are easy. Some universities may teach a very simplistic general A+P for most of their students, and then a more complicated course for students in streams where a better background is necessary. For example, a student taking physiology as an elective in a microbiology degree has a different set of needs from a student who plans to major in pharmacology, neuroscience, physiology, etc.

Some of the higher level undergraduate physiology courses are brutally hard, and often have grad students registered to fulfill course requirements for the Master's / PhD.

(2) It's fantastic that you or I may have found introductory A+P at a university level easy. I'm just suggesting that that's not the same for everyone. We don't all have the same ability. Some people are poor students because they don't try, some try really hard, and don't reach the same level.

Sorry if I came across as being aggressive, or if this felt like a personal attack. It wasn't intended in that spirit.

 

[systemet]

I think this exactly describes the issue.

It is simply a mess. Required background is not understood, just a collection of facts to memorize. Then the students struggle. Not because the students are not good, but because the idiots teaching them haven't given them what they need to be successful.

Medical education cannot be successfully taught "boot camp" style. We complain endlessly about EMS education, but most in EMS will never take a class other than EMT, maybe a seperate A&P, and paramedic. Most of the instructors are so because of longevity who don't understand the basic science themselves, just regurgitate bullet points on a powerpoint.

I agree wholeheartedly. I think to fix this:

(1) Paramedic entry-to-practice should be a B.Sc. at a minimum. There should be no more privately-run for profit schools.

(2) The first two years should be MCAT pre-reqs. The start of a biology degree, perhaps with some electives focusing on BLS care.

 

[JPINFV]

(2) The first two years should be MCAT pre-reqs. The start of a biology degree, perhaps with some electives focusing on BLS care.

MCAT pre-reqs does not cover things like psychology, scientific writing, etc. Additionally, I've yet to realize the need for o-chem past, maybe, the thought process used, as a medical student. For paramedic students, I see absolutely no use for the course.

 

[Sandog]

I'm sure I will be taking a more advanced class in the very near future as I have decided to do a dual degree in history and a science that is yet to be determined. (I'm due for my refresher in 3 years anyway.) I want to go to PA school, so I need a science degree. I'd aim high for med school, but at 35, I'm a tad too elderly to consider that route.

Your not too old for med school!

 

[JPINFV]

Your not too old for med school!

Not too old, but the cost benefit equation for starting down the path of medical school for a 35 year old is different than someone starting down that path at 18. 35 with a BS, you're looking at 3-4 years of undergrad to either redo pre-reqs, cover pre-reqs not covered if you already have a degree, take the MCAT, and apply. Assuming you get in (I use "assume" because a large percentage of applicants do not get accepted anyplace in the US and with how the supply/demand equation is changing with new and larger classes, I would think long and hard before going Caribbean), then it's 4 years of medical school and 3-4 years of residency, and then another few years if you want to subsidize. That's 10 years of pre-reqs, applying, med school, and residency.

Is the loss wages and debt worth it considering you're starting to practice in the 40's vs late 20's/early 30s?

What about time away from spouse and children? Medical school is not anything like undergrad.

What if you change your mind? It's easy to quickly rack up student loan debt where successful completion is the only real option (remember, student loans are not discharged outside of death or significant disability).

People who are considering medical school need to think long and hard before committing. Non-traditional students need to think twice as long and twice as hard.

 

[MrBrown]

Non-traditional students need to think twice as long and twice as hard.

Hence why Brown ain't planning on becoming an MD anytime soon, shame.

 

[Veneficus]

MCAT pre-reqs does not cover things like psychology, scientific writing, etc. Additionally, I've yet to realize the need for o-chem past, maybe, the thought process used, as a medical student. For paramedic students, I see absolutely no use for the course.

The point of Ochem is to understand characteristic reactions and so they are ingrained enough to understand biochemical processes. They also help a lot in anesthesia when the professor is questioning you about whether an ester or an amine is more likely to provoke an anaphylactic response or why drugs with teritiary amines don't cross the blood/brain barrier.

 

[Sandog]

MCAT pre-reqs does not cover things like psychology, scientific writing, etc. Additionally, I've yet to realize the need for o-chem past, maybe, the thought process used, as a medical student. For paramedic students, I see absolutely no use for the course.

O-chem prepares one for Bio-chem. Bio-chem is very helpful in understanding the intricacies of physiology. IMHO anyways. Besides o-chem is easier and more interesting than two mind numbing semesters of gen chem...

 

[Emma]

Besides o-chem is easier and more interesting than two mind numbing semesters of gen chem...

Oh my god, so true. Plus with ochem you get to mess with those fun model kits!

I have to admit...I had always just assumed that people who were paramedics had a 4 year college degree in it. I'm slightly horrified to find out that it's way less than that.

 

[Outbac1]

Human Anatomy and Physiology by Marieb.

As many others have said this is a good book to START with. A good understanding of how the body is supposed to work will make more advanced concepts easier to understand. You can go onwards and upwards from there.

 

[harryb714]

I just ordered a cheap 6th edition copy of Human Anatomy and Physiology by Marieb.

 

[JPINFV]

O-chem prepares one for Bio-chem. Bio-chem is very helpful in understanding the intricacies of physiology. IMHO anyways. Besides o-chem is easier and more interesting than two mind numbing semesters of gen chem...

See... my undergrad bio program had us taking biochem during the second quarter of o-chem.

I do agree, though, that I found o-chem more enjoyable than g-chem.

 

[Veneficus]

O-chem prepares one for Bio-chem. Bio-chem is very helpful in understanding the intricacies of physiology. IMHO anyways. Besides o-chem is easier and more interesting than two mind numbing semesters of gen chem...

I rather enjoyed gen chem, but being a firefighter things like thermodynamics had more direct benefit that it really did for strictly medical people.

Now calculating the electron location, was truly a waste of time.

 

[usafmedic45]

It's important to me that you realise it wasn't a personal attack -- in the short time I've been here, I can see that you're a significant contributor to the forum, and a wealth of knowledge.

I didn't take it that way. Trust me, if I'd taken it as a personal attack, you'd have been made aware.

 

[NomadicMedic]

Students not having a base eduction in micro, p chem, o chem and A&P prior to medic school is sad. I would have been lost without a solid base in human bio and science.

 

[usafmedic45]

Students not having a base eduction in micro, p chem, o chem and A&P prior to medic school is sad. I would have been lost without a solid base in human bio and science.

I dunno about p chem. I know a lot of people who get through medical school without needing it. LOL

 

[NomadicMedic]

I loved p chem. i guess I was a glutton for punishment. But we agree on micro and o-chem?

 

[systemet]

Just to let everyone know, I started another thread in the "Education & Training" forum so that we could discuss improvements to paramedic training there, if anyone wants to join in.

 

[usafmedic45]

I loved p chem. i guess I was a glutton for punishment. But we agree on micro and o-chem?

Definitely.