trauma1534
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Dag man! They let any old flunkie be a boy scout! HA!
Hat's off to EMT-B's
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Dag man! They let any old flunkie be a boy scout! HA!
Fedmedic
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And I was an Eagle Scout, why do think I am such a good paramedic, I got my first aid merit badge and skill award.
fm_emt
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And I was an Eagle Scout, why do think I am such a good paramedic, I got my first aid merit badge and skill award.
That's basically how I started down this road.. the Boy Scouts! There was an ER doc teaching the First Aid merit badge stuff.
I would have made Eagle if I didn't move out of the country. :|
trauma1534
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And I was an Eagle Scout, why do think I am such a good paramedic, I got my first aid merit badge and skill award.
Well cool! I didn't know that! I was a 4-H Honer Club Member myself! LOL Didn't win a marit badge or anything, but I did learn how to use a canoo! lol
fm_emt
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You should have put the oars down and picked up a dictionary!
*bah-dum..ching!*
Thanks! I'll be here all week. Please be sure to tip your waitress.
(Yes, I'm just playing with you.)
Fedmedic
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You should have put the oars down and picked up a dictionary!
*bah-dum..ching!*
Thanks! I'll be here all week. Please be sure to tip your waitress.
(Yes, I'm just playing with you.)
Now I liked that...He gotcha there Trauma1534...that's what you get for leading with your jaw!
trauma1534
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You should have put the oars down and picked up a dictionary!
*bah-dum..ching!*
Thanks! I'll be here all week. Please be sure to tip your waitress.
(Yes, I'm just playing with you.)
huh? a dictionary? I don't know how to read them.
Yep, ya got me! I'll give you that one! lol
trauma1534
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Now you being ugly! Be pretty!
I see this is now a discussion on the Boy Scouts. I was a scout many moons ago. Got as far as Life before I became and EMT and started working full time EMS. Scouting is a great thing, and it taught me alot about how to overcome things in stressful situations. As far as the whole EMS system being broken, I think it is in several ways. We don't get paid enough, and we aren't given the respect of our healthcare counterparts. Of course more money, and more education may fix that, but ultimately its the professionalism we all display that helps our case the most!
trauma1534
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If you think it is broken, then help those under your level to get good. That is how you are going to fix it. Not by shutting them out!!!
oldschoolmedic
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The system is broken. We are over-regulated and under-educated. Have any of you ever been to court and been picked apart by a competent attorney? Even meeting the minimum standards to practice his profession has required him to earn a doctorate. Why is asking for the educational standards (to a minimum AS or BS) of EMS to be raised even considered exclusionary? Is it because it may reduce the amount of providers? In counterpoint to that it will raise the level of care and earning potential provided by those who meet the standard.
I bring up nursing as an example because I am dearly familiar with several. In the seventies when nurses were becoming increasingly scarce due to increasing workloads, stagnated pay, and indifferent hospital management systems what did nurses do? Did they ease the educational requirements to put more nurses on the wards? No, they raised the educational requirements and lobbied congress for reforms, thus broadening their scope of practice to justify the concommitant increases in pay and reductions in patient loading they needed. Did it hurt them? Yes, in the short run it did, but in the long run it changed a profession. Now there are minimum staffing levels, and maximum patient to provider ratios, and a pay scale that is only limited by the ambition of the nurse. Nursing has been around far longer than EMS, and yet is far less hidebound and inflexible when it comes to change.
Let us now consider our brethren in the fire service. Does anyone believe they joined the department to run an ambulance or respond to the drunk behind the dumpster? Nope, they wanted to fight fire, period. The fire service has in effect almost legislated itself out of business by enforcing newer building codes and endorsing better, less flammable building materials. Now they are having to adapt their mission so that they may justify having all of their apparatus sitting on the bay floor not rolling while EMS is busting butt all day and night. Some people see it as the next logical expansion of the fire service, and it just may be.
As a profession EMS is all of thirty-five years old, we are the children of the public safety sector, and from what I see here we are acting like it too. I am an advocate of EMS. I have been since my dad was intubated on my living room floor by two guys in flannel shirts and blue jeans. We only had rescue squads in upstate NY at that time. Those guys did fine, and so did my dad. Twenty years and a lot of miles later I am still riding in a truck trying to help. I am pro-EMT, but at the same time recognize the limitations of their education, just as I acknowledge my own.
I have grown disenchanted with the emphasis on the "alphabet" courses even while holding several instructor certs. When I precept students I ask them why we did a certain procedure and the standard answer is "protocols." No independent thought, or reflection needed, just a pat "because I was told to." I ask them to find me an answer to the question asked before I sign off on them. Hard, yes. Fair, probably not. Motivational definitely. I have my knee-jerk moments too, but those are mainly due to having my hands tied by the self-same protocols.
I want the next generation of providers to be smarter than we were. I believe if we relax our standards, or keep the bar set low just to keep the meat in the seat we are doing ourselves a bigger disservice than if we take the transient discomfort which will come with an elevation of our standards. We all know providers that we would let work on our family members in a heartbeat, but, by the same token we all know some we wouldn't let touch our hamsters on a bet. The majority of the time raising the bar is going help the former, and keep the latter out. Occasionally one will slip through, but they won't last.
It is only our silence which allows substandard care to be rendered. The "What happens in the truck stays in the truck" and "It's all in how you write the run report" mentality needs to go away quickly. A true national educational standard (not the National Registry), licensing (not certification) with statewide regulation will go a long way to creating the foundation upon whch future EMS systems will be built.
I will now relinquish my soapbox. Thank you.
I bring up nursing as an example because I am dearly familiar with several. In the seventies when nurses were becoming increasingly scarce due to increasing workloads, stagnated pay, and indifferent hospital management systems what did nurses do? Did they ease the educational requirements to put more nurses on the wards? No, they raised the educational requirements and lobbied congress for reforms, thus broadening their scope of practice to justify the concommitant increases in pay and reductions in patient loading they needed. Did it hurt them? Yes, in the short run it did, but in the long run it changed a profession. Now there are minimum staffing levels, and maximum patient to provider ratios, and a pay scale that is only limited by the ambition of the nurse. Nursing has been around far longer than EMS, and yet is far less hidebound and inflexible when it comes to change.
Let us now consider our brethren in the fire service. Does anyone believe they joined the department to run an ambulance or respond to the drunk behind the dumpster? Nope, they wanted to fight fire, period. The fire service has in effect almost legislated itself out of business by enforcing newer building codes and endorsing better, less flammable building materials. Now they are having to adapt their mission so that they may justify having all of their apparatus sitting on the bay floor not rolling while EMS is busting butt all day and night. Some people see it as the next logical expansion of the fire service, and it just may be.
As a profession EMS is all of thirty-five years old, we are the children of the public safety sector, and from what I see here we are acting like it too. I am an advocate of EMS. I have been since my dad was intubated on my living room floor by two guys in flannel shirts and blue jeans. We only had rescue squads in upstate NY at that time. Those guys did fine, and so did my dad. Twenty years and a lot of miles later I am still riding in a truck trying to help. I am pro-EMT, but at the same time recognize the limitations of their education, just as I acknowledge my own.
I have grown disenchanted with the emphasis on the "alphabet" courses even while holding several instructor certs. When I precept students I ask them why we did a certain procedure and the standard answer is "protocols." No independent thought, or reflection needed, just a pat "because I was told to." I ask them to find me an answer to the question asked before I sign off on them. Hard, yes. Fair, probably not. Motivational definitely. I have my knee-jerk moments too, but those are mainly due to having my hands tied by the self-same protocols.
I want the next generation of providers to be smarter than we were. I believe if we relax our standards, or keep the bar set low just to keep the meat in the seat we are doing ourselves a bigger disservice than if we take the transient discomfort which will come with an elevation of our standards. We all know providers that we would let work on our family members in a heartbeat, but, by the same token we all know some we wouldn't let touch our hamsters on a bet. The majority of the time raising the bar is going help the former, and keep the latter out. Occasionally one will slip through, but they won't last.
It is only our silence which allows substandard care to be rendered. The "What happens in the truck stays in the truck" and "It's all in how you write the run report" mentality needs to go away quickly. A true national educational standard (not the National Registry), licensing (not certification) with statewide regulation will go a long way to creating the foundation upon whch future EMS systems will be built.
I will now relinquish my soapbox. Thank you.
Seems like alot of people from PA and NY are moving here to SC.
As for the thread, I think that in the next 5 years an AS will be required to be a paramedic, possibly even just to be an EMT. Of course there will be the arguement that its a bad thing to make people go to college/tech school to get certified, but guess what, nurses now get degrees to be nurses...its only a matter of time. LEO and FD personnel are even going to college and get degrees in their field, so why shouldnt EMS get the education too, at worst it will only make us better providers!
oldschoolmedic
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We're coming here because you don't have to shovel rain in the winter. Now if I could only find a decent pizza, I've been looking since 1989. None of what I found compares to NY style 'za.
trauma1534
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As far as nurses go, I can atest to this. Nurses don't have to get a degree to be a nurse. The trauma center where I work hires diploma nurses everyday. Infact, my supervisor has her masters in nursing and she will tell you that a diploma RN makes a better clinical nurse any day than a degree nurse. They are more hands on and they are not just pencil pushers or Dr. callers. She says that they are taught to think on thier feet. When it gets down to it, diploma nurses at the hospital I work at holds management positions, training positions, and anything else that the BSN's get. They even start at the same level in pay as new BSN grads.
I think we are all blowing this whole thing out of proportion. We need to get back to discussions about the calls we run and chat about real life situations that we have been through and share and help eachother out with encouragement, not putting anyone down, or slamming or pissing matches. Let's just get back to the basics of why we are in this field to start with. Even paramedics are not in it to get rich. We all knew when we got our certifications that it was one of the lowest paying jobs in health care.
jeepmedic
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Oldschool. Great post. This is the only thing I disagree with though. It is hard and It is Fair to not only the provider you are training but also to the System you work for and the pts. that are in your response area. The provider needs to know why he/she is doing what they are doing and why the protocal are written the way they are.
Ridryder911
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Sorry, but if they are hiring diploma nurses they are hiring older experienced nurses and and that is the reason they are getting paid = to BSN, not because of their educational level. I can assure you as well, not all diploma nurses in general make the equivalency ,or have the ability to be promoted upward most of the time. I agree they are good technical nurses, but their career can be limited.
Many diploma schools closed after 1965, when the American Nurses' Association (ANA) published a position paper stating that all nursing education should take place in institutions of higher learning. The organization also recommended two levels of nursing practice: professional and technical; the professional nurse would have a baccalaureate or higher degree, the technical nurse would have an associate degree, and the technical nurse would work under the direct supervision of the professional nurse.
AAS or ADN has been required since 1990, to take the NLN,- RN test. I could not find ANA approved nursing diploma schools. Many may call themselves private but are associated with some college or university to allow students to obtain the required degree.
Yes, it is true no one expected to be "rich" but to be able to make a decent living without working > 40 hours in doing so. Most medics work in excess of 50-100 per week, not every 2 weeks. As well most are able to qualify for medicaid and food stamp programs. This is a disgrace for someone that has that much responsibility as well reflects upon on the profession. Now, do we really wonder why we get the type of applicants we are getting for EMT schools, and why many are leaving?
Sorry, educational requirements and having such demands will equal higher pay in recognition than those that do not. It is the fact, not bragging or demeaning. The same as high school graduates to comparison of those that do not have degrees, to associate to bachelors degree to masters degree each approximately 5 to 10 thousand dollars salary differential.
This is real life discussion, much more than some other discussions. scenarios are great... but, we should all know how to perform and treat most of these by now. Yes, we can learn off strange and bizarre cases, but the typical AMI and chest pain is really pretty routine. There is really little treatment for trauma, except the usual immobilization, IV's and airway management, maybe a decompression if severe other than that, it's pretty mondaine.
I am glad to see more involvement on this forum lately.
R/r 911
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oldschoolmedic
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Living near Cola.
My mother is a diploma nurse, graduated in 1960. It was a three year course of study which involved them actually living on the hospital campus, attending classes by day, and working on the wards at night. They rolled bandages as punishment in their first year. Second-years were washing out test tubes, beakers, and hypodermic syringes. Third years, get this, resharpened needles and scalpels for use. She just attended her 46th reunion last month. There are only eight nurses from her class left. My mom still works full time as a home health nurse, even though she has already retired from a hospital after thirty five years of service.
My mother is a diploma nurse, graduated in 1960. It was a three year course of study which involved them actually living on the hospital campus, attending classes by day, and working on the wards at night. They rolled bandages as punishment in their first year. Second-years were washing out test tubes, beakers, and hypodermic syringes. Third years, get this, resharpened needles and scalpels for use. She just attended her 46th reunion last month. There are only eight nurses from her class left. My mom still works full time as a home health nurse, even though she has already retired from a hospital after thirty five years of service.
jeepmedic
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And you call yourself "Oldschool"
Thats great about your mom. Those are the folks we need to listen
trauma1534
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Ridryder, I'm sorry, but you are wrong buddy. We do have diploma nurses at MCV, and they hold management positions. They do walk in the door with the same entry level pay scale as someone from the VCU BSN program. Entry level RN is entry Level RN.
We do have about 3 diploma programs here in the area as well. They are not related to a college. They are hospital based and the nurses comming from one of those programs in particular are awesome.
I am actually considering enrolling into that program myself. It is based out of a small hospital in Petersburg. These nurses are the best nurses I've ever seen to just come out of school. They are agressive as most grads lack. Infact, most nurses weather fresh grads or years of experience depending on thier background are not agressive at all! But these are.
We do have about 3 diploma programs here in the area as well. They are not related to a college. They are hospital based and the nurses comming from one of those programs in particular are awesome.
I am actually considering enrolling into that program myself. It is based out of a small hospital in Petersburg. These nurses are the best nurses I've ever seen to just come out of school. They are agressive as most grads lack. Infact, most nurses weather fresh grads or years of experience depending on thier background are not agressive at all! But these are.