For all the anti-union people who trust the management......

[emt seeking first job]

http://www.ny1.com/content/top_stor...spital-squandered-millions--exaggerated-debts

Yes, union officials could have squandered money also, however, in this instance it was the executives.

And people still question an employer buying uniforms ?

Why dont we do away with paid vacations ? Hey, save your money and take time off, why get paid for no work....?

(sarcasm)

My opinion stands, the best scenario is a union that represents the intrests of the employee.

Would anyone advocate a criminal not getting a lawyer because he appears guilty ?

It is up to arbitrators, judges, and attorney generals to ensure neither side abuses their power.

We live in an era unlike the 40s - 70s, executives and management have a wide latiitutde and are taking great abuses. There seems to be no more middle class.

The powers that be allow a pool of desperate people willing to work for cash off the books to come here, and skew the supply and demand.

Would anyone be surprised if Health Depatments either changed or stopped enforcing the rules/laws on ambulances and we have day laborers working the private services, and the owners squeezing out more profit ?

 

[94H]

Would anyone be surprised if Health Depatments either changed or stopped enforcing the rules/laws on ambulances and we have day laborers working the private services, and the owners squeezing out more profit ?

I would be extremely surprised. Theres a difference between picking fruit or stocking shelves and driving and providing care.

The Owners of my company will discipline people for bending the rules. Outright breaking of them is not something that is going to be encouraged.

Yes, the management tries to make as much money as possible, but not at the expense of people lives

 

[Aidey]

The only thing a union could have possibly done in this situation is maybe act as a whistle blower. We have a union, and they have absolutely no power to tell the company how to spend their money aside from what they request for wages and benefits. Beyond that they can not regulate with the company does with its own money.

 

[VinBin]

The powers that be allow a pool of desperate people willing to work for cash off the books to come here, and skew the supply and demand.

Would anyone be surprised if Health Depatments either changed or stopped enforcing the rules/laws on ambulances and we have day laborers working the private services, and the owners squeezing out more profit ?

First, the pool of desperate people willing to work (I assume you mean illegal immigrants) generally find jobs because unions think its right for them to DECIDE the wage rate for their work. In other words, a union will set an arbitrary salary for someone fixing nuts into a assembly line, a low skill job. In a normal market, these individuals would be getting paid a lot less, where there are lots of low skilled workers and not enough spots, thus you get lower wages. There is a reason why US automakers have their hands tied, people on an assembly line making $30/hour with ridiculous benefits? When any business allows itself to be run in such a ridiculous manner, was it any surprise that all the US automakers failed? Should we be strict on illegal immigration? Of course! They drain a lot of public services, but to blame them because companies don't want to pay inflated salaries to their employees is short sighted.

My problem with unions isn't mainly because they are corrupt, I agree there are lots of executives and individuals that are corrupt. It's that unions generally have individuals who have little oversight controlling large amounts of cash. Say what you want about financial companies, but at least there is some form of oversight via SEC, account rules, etc. Illegal activity is rampant in unions because they are not only connected with politicians but also act with little oversight. This is the same issue I have with fire districts that act as autonomous bodies with tax payer money.

Unions are not a good idea because they hurt the people they wish to help, it is known that unions drive up unemployment. Unions also skew the wage rate for the people they represent, forcing employers to SUBSTITUTE capital (machines) for people. Also, unions often are very short sighted in the things they work toward often ignoring long term consequences to their actions (higher wages now for more layoffs in the future). These are the MAIN reasons why unions are bad, corruption is just a byproduct of a system that allows individuals with no knowledge of finance to manage large amounts of money.

And yes, I know they are good for those individuals who are represented by the union, they get paid inflated wages, why wouldn't they? And to answer your question of why ambulances would never consider what you are saying in your hypothetical question. Lawsuits?

 

[emt seeking first job]

First, the pool of desperate people willing to work (I assume you mean illegal immigrants) generally find jobs because unions think its right for them to DECIDE the wage rate for their work. In other words, a union will set an arbitrary salary for someone fixing nuts into a assembly line, a low skill job. In a normal market, these individuals would be getting paid a lot less, where there are lots of low skilled workers and not enough spots, thus you get lower wages. There is a reason why US automakers have their hands tied, people on an assembly line making $30/hour with ridiculous benefits? When any business allows itself to be run in such a ridiculous manner, was it any surprise that all the US automakers failed? Should we be strict on illegal immigration? Of course! They drain a lot of public services, but to blame them because companies don't want to pay inflated salaries to their employees is short sighted.

My problem with unions isn't mainly because they are corrupt, I agree there are lots of executives and individuals that are corrupt. It's that unions generally have individuals who have little oversight controlling large amounts of cash. Say what you want about financial companies, but at least there is some form of oversight via SEC, account rules, etc. Illegal activity is rampant in unions because they are not only connected with politicians but also act with little oversight. This is the same issue I have with fire districts that act as autonomous bodies with tax payer money.

Unions are not a good idea because they hurt the people they wish to help, it is known that unions drive up unemployment. Unions also skew the wage rate for the people they represent, forcing employers to SUBSTITUTE capital (machines) for people. Also, unions often are very short sighted in the things they work toward often ignoring long term consequences to their actions (higher wages now for more layoffs in the future). These are the MAIN reasons why unions are bad, corruption is just a byproduct of a system that allows individuals with no knowledge of finance to manage large amounts of money.

And yes, I know they are good for those individuals who are represented by the union, they get paid inflated wages, why wouldn't they? And to answer your question of why ambulances would never consider what you are saying in your hypothetical question. Lawsuits?

Unions negotiate those wages, in the case of public safety, those people can not strike.

That is why people run through hoops and bounds and pay test fees, fingerprint fees, drug test fees, to be cops and fire fighters.

The company gets a stable workforce. Standards are held.

It is not socialism. It is a system of checks and balances.

Why shouldnt front line workers share profit?

You can keep lowering salaries and always find someone willing to do it.

 

[emt seeking first job]

I would be extremely surprised. Theres a difference between picking fruit or stocking shelves and driving and providing care.

The Owners of my company will discipline people for bending the rules. Outright breaking of them is not something that is going to be encouraged.

Yes, the management tries to make as much money as possible, but not at the expense of people lives

Society could break down to one day the people stocking shelves are now providing pre-hospital care.

In my preofession now, driving instruction, there are already people without credentials offering that and the police and dept of motor vehicles ignore it.

 

[emt seeking first job]

The only thing a union could have possibly done in this situation is maybe act as a whistle blower. We have a union, and they have absolutely no power to tell the company how to spend their money aside from what they request for wages and benefits. Beyond that they can not regulate with the company does with its own money.

That is a lot to act as a whisteblower and to protect the jobs/careers of employees blowing the whistles !!!!

The nurses union is part of the lawsuit, they should have been doing something before it shut down.

 

[looker]

Unions negotiate those wages, in the case of public safety, those people can not strike.

That is why people run through hoops and bounds and pay test fees, fingerprint fees, drug test fees, to be cops and fire fighters.

The company gets a stable workforce. Standards are held.

It is not socialism. It is a system of checks and balances.

Why shouldnt front line workers share profit?

You can keep lowering salaries and always find someone willing to do it.

Why shouldn't front line worker share profit, well it's simple because you're a worker. That is right, you doing work for a company and for that you're getting paid. If you want to get much bigger share of profit either become more valuable to the company aka more education so you can move in to upper management or open your own business.

 

[emt seeking first job]

Education and investment capital may not be available to everyone.

In a global age, with 6 billion on the planet, there is always someone willing to do the job for three squares and a roof over their head.

Heck, I bet there are doctors in India that would work in the USA for food housing and $500 a month to send home.

This country has no tariffs, companies can manufacturer in foreign countries with no labor standards, using child labor even !!!

I HAVE HEARD STORIES FROM HEALTH CARE PEOPLE in private clinics, they were told to reuse same gloves for all patients in a day, unless soiled, they took short cuts on safety.

I even read about one place that re0used syringes. There are places that pay cash off the books for EEG, sonogram techs, etc.

The people that work there, no union, given a choice with $500 cash a week to feed their own family, or someone else taking their job, most will re-use syringes and keep their jobs !!!!

Dont you get it ?

Unions are not evil in themselves, what is wrong with labor laws, standards, and unions creating a middle class.

HOW DID THIS COUNTRY SURVIVE FROM 1945 through 1975........?

Dont you see a standard of living decline?

You dont think day laborers will be EMTS one day?

NYC certifies people in construction trades w/o checking lawfulness to work here....then you read about cranes falling down, retaining walls collapsing....

 

[looker]

Education and investment capital may not be available to everyone.

In a global age, with 6 billion on the planet, there is always someone willing to do the job for three squares and a roof over their head.

Heck, I bet there are doctors in India that would work in the USA for food housing and $500 a month to send home.

This country has no tariffs, companies can manufacturer in foreign countries with no labor standards, using child labor even !!!

I HAVE HEARD STORIES FROM HEALTH CARE PEOPLE in private clinics, they were told to reuse same gloves for all patients in a day, unless soiled, they took short cuts on safety.

I even read about one place that re0used syringes. There are places that pay cash off the books for EEG, sonogram techs, etc.

The people that work there, no union, given a choice with $500 cash a week to feed their own family, or someone else taking their job, most will re-use syringes and keep their jobs !!!!

Dont you get it ?

Unions are not evil in themselves, what is wrong with labor laws, standards, and unions creating a middle class.

HOW DID THIS COUNTRY SURVIVE FROM 1945 through 1975........?

Dont you see a standard of living decline?

You dont think day laborers will be EMTS one day?

NYC certifies people in construction trades w/o checking lawfulness to work here....then you read about cranes falling down, retaining walls collapsing....

It's the goal of any employee to get paid as much as possible. I have no problem with having minimum standards. Reusing gloves and syringes to me is a big No, NO.

As for what is wrong with creating middle class, because not everyone can be middle class and not everyone can be wealthy. If tomorrow no one was willing to work as EMT for lower than $25 plus full benefits, guess what that is what they would get paid. You pay usually what the market says you should pay because below that qualified people are not willing to do that job.

What you want instead is forcefully force employer to pay you more just because in your mind you think you're worth more without having any special skills that makes you more valuable to the company and not easily replaceable with another Joe.

 

[firecoins]

I went to St Vincents to get my medic in 2008. It was always strange how they owed so much money.

St. Vincents hospital had unions. I don't see what Unions had to do with this. They didn't help. They didn't prevent management from stealing. How does this demonstrate a need for unions? They certainly did no save any jobs.

Also St Vincents was owend the NY Archdioses. This wasn't a for profit company. This wasn't GM.

I am capitalist. Unions negotiate for higher wages and safer conditions. Thats fine. Its important. But if foreign firms oversees does not have to pay the same high wages or maintain safe working conditions, the US company will have adopt or die. The union jobs disappear first. No way around it.

The US did very well between 1945 to 1975. The economcy expanded. So did the Japanese without the inflated Union jobs.

 

[emt seeking first job]

Unions are not just about wages and benefits. They serve as a watchdog.

There is no way all EMTs will only accept any certain amount.

I know of one specific one, offered $16 to be a training officer at a private, he insisted on $20, they refused, he got a job in IT, and just vollies and instructs part time.

Yes, not everyone can be rich or even middle class, but there was a certain thing in this nation in the 1950s, certain values, not everyone was middle class. But there was a balance.

Also, if laws and unions enable people to get paid more, it keeps popular revolts from happening....

That WOULD happen in Mexico, but instead they are invited to come here, no pressure on the wealthy there.

With all respect, you are not seeking a balance. You have this ideal that 'skilled' people can name their own salary, well what if the powers that be import a bunch of 'skilled' people who will work for less....

I really think there should be some sort of GLOBAL standards for labor. Do you realize imported goods are often from child labour?

Do you want EVERYTHING 'free market' ?

What about in the ER room, the patient who bids the highest gets to see the doctor first ?

Then your happy?

Do you realize not so long ago, before police jobs had unions, they paid :censored::censored::censored::censored:, they were far more corrupt, it was in fact a neccessity to put food on the table.....

I am not a socialist. I do think unions have potential to be corrupt, but then they should be subject to oversight.

Socialism/capitalism are ideals. Our system is great, (was better actually) simply becuase there were checks and balances and nobody operated in a vacumn.

A healthy middle class, as opposed to 10% wealthy ruling over 90% making sustinance wages protects against revolution better than a strong military....

Do you really think some 'management spy' is lurjing here, will contact you and say, "we will make you one of us as thanks for your support....?"

 

[emt seeking first job]

I went to St Vincents to get my medic in 2008. It was always strange how they owed so much money.

St. Vincents hospital had unions. I don't see what Unions had to do with this. They didn't help. They didn't prevent management from stealing. How does this demonstrate a need for unions? They certainly did no save any jobs.

Also St Vincents was owend the NY Archdioses. This wasn't a for profit company. This wasn't GM.

I am capitalist. Unions negotiate for higher wages and safer conditions. Thats fine. Its important. But if foreign firms oversees does not have to pay the same high wages or maintain safe working conditions, the US company will have adopt or die. The union jobs disappear first. No way around it.

The US did very well between 1945 to 1975. The economcy expanded. So did the Japanese without the inflated Union jobs.

Japan is different, its mostly a single ethnicity, there was this culture for the "good of our people"...

The USA is really a coloney turned nation, its like the wild west...

SO YOU WANT THEIR TO BE A RELAXTION OF LABOR STANDARDS?

ALSO.....a non profit does not make a profit, but the executives who control it, THEY REMOVE personal profit in salaries , perks, contracts to friends and families...

A non profit is not always a volunteer organization.

There is no pure capitlism....

Are you a PURE capitalist ?

Do you want ER doctors or EMT to treat the patient whop bids the highest price to be treated first ??????????????????????????????????????????

Capitalism and socialism are ideals. They are not models for actual socities...

How about the second you are injured on the job, all you have is what you saved....no extra benefits...let workers compensation be EMPLOYEE paid, funnel more money into the hedge funds of the rich...

 

[medic417]

I was going to go into a long drawn on explanation but it is obvious that you have made your decision so I will only say that many years ago I saw how unions helped. But through the decades the times have changed but unions have not stayed up and all to often they now actually hurt workers by costing jobs.

 

[fortsmithman]

Society could break down to one day the people stocking shelves are now providing pre-hospital care.

I'm a member of a paid on call/volly EMS Dept and for my full time job I'm a department manager at a grocery store. So in my case you do have a guy who stocks shelves providing prehospital care in my town.

 

[VinBin]

Yes, not everyone can be rich or even middle class, but there was a certain thing in this nation in the 1950s, certain values, not everyone was middle class. But there was a balance.

Also, if laws and unions enable people to get paid more, it keeps popular revolts from happening....

With all respect, you are not seeking a balance. You have this ideal that 'skilled' people can name their own salary, well what if the powers that be import a bunch of 'skilled' people who will work for less....

I really think there should be some sort of GLOBAL standards for labor. Do you realize imported goods are often from child labour?

Do you realize not so long ago, before police jobs had unions, they paid :censored::censored::censored::censored:, they were far more corrupt, it was in fact a neccessity to put food on the table.....

Socialism/capitalism are ideals. Our system is great, (was better actually) simply becuase there were checks and balances and nobody operated in a vacumn.

A healthy middle class, as opposed to 10% wealthy ruling over 90% making sustinance wages protects against revolution better than a strong military....

To be completely honest, I don't really follow your logic. You essentially threw together random stories about cops not being paid and something about fingerprinting and I don't really see how they support your argument. Also you never directly addressed my issues with unions leading to higher unemployment, inflated wages, lower efficiency, long term substitution of capital (machines), and short sighted approach that will eventually lead to loss of jobs for union members. And how about employers? Why should they be stuck with inefficient employees out of fear of having to jump through hoops to please the unions if they fire one of the "boys."

You seem to be obsessed with what you view as "fair" and right. Why don't they bring doctors from India to work for only food and housing? You would not get any doctors to come here for that. Believe it or not, doctors live a decent lifestyle in India and they come here because of relatively higher pay and opportunities (capitalism ideals) that America provides. Let me assure you that there are no doctors in India that are dying for a room and a hot meal...

Using random stories about private practices that reused syringes or corporations cutting corners does not support your argument, we are debating whether unions help or hurt society in general. You keep throwing around words such as "revolution" and "popular revolts." I don't really know what you are talking about. And also, the union DOES NOT lead to a strong middle class, if anything it costs people jobs so I suggest you modify that statement.

Let me assure you again that people with no knowledge of pre hospital care will NEVER be working in EMS. And medic417 is right, I was about to ask you to clarify your statement about how money is funneled into hedge funds. Then realized you have a very strong view that the corporations and the wealthy do not deserve to be rich, so lets leave it at this.

 

[rescue99]

The only thing a union could have possibly done in this situation is maybe act as a whistle blower. We have a union, and they have absolutely no power to tell the company how to spend their money aside from what they request for wages and benefits. Beyond that they can not regulate with the company does with its own money.

It is true; a company can't be told how to spend resources but, the books are opened up when the company swears it has no funds to pay benefits, wages and other negotiable items. A certain amount of company financials are opened up during all new contract talks. A company may well be running in the red and need financial relief or need financial relief for other legitimate reasons but, they will have to open the books in order to claim that hardship. Employers are afraid of organized labor mainly due the fact that no company wants to open up its books to anyone, let alone a third party negotiator or an arbitrator.

 

[JPINFV]

http://www.ny1.com/content/top_stor...spital-squandered-millions--exaggerated-debts

Yes, union officials could have squandered money also, however, in this instance it was the executives.

And people still question an employer buying uniforms ?

Why dont we do away with paid vacations ? Hey, save your money and take time off, why get paid for no work....?

(sarcasm)

My opinion stands, the best scenario is a union that represents the intrests of the employee.

...and a union would have done, what exactly, in this situation?

Would anyone advocate a criminal not getting a lawyer because he appears guilty ?

It is up to arbitrators, judges, and attorney generals to ensure neither side abuses their power.

I didn't need a lawyer when I went to traffic court. I rarely get into trouble at work, and I don't need a union slug to represent me. I can articulate myself very well, thank you very much.

We live in an era unlike the 40s - 70s, executives and management have a wide latiitutde and are taking great abuses. There seems to be no more middle class.

...and unions have control over non-labor issues, how, again?

The powers that be allow a pool of desperate people willing to work for cash off the books to come here, and skew the supply and demand.

Would anyone be surprised if Health Depatments either changed or stopped enforcing the rules/laws on ambulances and we have day laborers working the private services, and the owners squeezing out more profit ?

To be honest, for the vast majority of interfacility transports there would likely be no real big difference in the level of care or safety involved.

 

[DrParasite]

I still like unions.

The employer isn't looking out for the employee; he (or rather it) is looking out for the company only. Similarly, a union isn't looking out for the company; it is looking out for the employee only.

There is corruption in upper levels of corporations, as well as in unions. I know this might shock people, but there is corruption in public office and politicians as well.

Unions NEGOTIATE with management, to ensure that management plays fair. Everyone blames unions for high wages, but the truth of the matter is that the COMPANY agreed to the wages. The union asked, and the company agreed. The fault DOES NOT REST SQUARELY ON THE UNION!!!

The other thing the union does is speak out against unsafe labor practices. Basically those things that management wants you to do that is in their best interest (read:cheaper) but not in the best interest of you doing your job or your patients. it can be as simple as telling management that doing the EMS job short 2 units will have a detrimental effect on patient care and response times, and they can't discipline employees for needing time to give report to nurses and turning over patient care.

If you break the rules, the union won't save you, but they will make sure the employer dots the i's and crosses the t's. but if the rules are unfair, or make it hard for you to do your job, then the union can discuss it with management, and have more clout than just an individual making a complaint.

Also you never directly addressed my issues with unions leading to higher unemployment, inflated wages, lower efficiency, long term substitution of capital (machines), and short sighted approach that will eventually lead to loss of jobs for union members.

higher unemployment? how have unions led to higher unemployment? lower efficiency? maybe, or maybe employees are happier when they know their jobs are secure, and they will work more efficiently knowing that if they work hard, they don't have to worry about being fired arbitrarily because they talk too much about how to make things better.

inflated wages? see my above statement, they are agreed upon by the company, so it's hard to blame the union for them. long term substitution of capital? machines are better than people? well, if a job (by a person) is no longer needed, the person should be retrained with new skills, or they should find another job.

Here is what I do know: many jobs that do have unions involved are paid better, have better conditions, and typically have happier employees that stay longer at their jobs than non-union ones. And these union jobs (all over) tend to have a line of people who want to get into the union, because it's better for the employee.

As an employee, I know there are owners like Looker, who are willing to fire employees for anything, for making too much money, because they don't stay late for no extra pay, for anything. Unions are needed because not every employer is good to their employees. The employer is doing what is in its best interest, not what is in the best interest of the employee, and will screw the employee if it is in the employers best interests. That's why unions are needed, to stand up for the employees because the employer won't.

 

[JPINFV]

Why shouldnt front line workers share profit?

Sure, they can share the profits when they want to start sharing the risks also. Company make no profit, workers make no money.