mycrofft
Still crazy but elsewhere
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Fire dept is a paramilitary organization. Locker belongs to FD.
You break the rules, you tangle with the Chief.
You break the rules, you tangle with the Chief.
Fireman Suspended Over US Flag Decal
- Thread starter Sasha
- Start date
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This is kinda local to me. It's been in local news, and all over my friend's facebook pages.
I'm torn. Because it is the flag, it seems stupid and wrong. If it were anything else (except for perhaps a union logo), there wouldn't be any case to be had here.
However, the rules are in place because postings on the outside of the locker got out of hand and became offensive. The department said NOTHING on the outside of the locker.
Perhaps a middle ground can be reached? Generic Fire-related stickers are OK, if on an approved list?
It'll be intresting to see what develops.
I'm torn. Because it is the flag, it seems stupid and wrong. If it were anything else (except for perhaps a union logo), there wouldn't be any case to be had here.
However, the rules are in place because postings on the outside of the locker got out of hand and became offensive. The department said NOTHING on the outside of the locker.
Perhaps a middle ground can be reached? Generic Fire-related stickers are OK, if on an approved list?
It'll be intresting to see what develops.
DrParasite
The fire extinguisher is not just for show
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I agree with you, 100%.
however that doesn't excuse violating the decree that the chief has handed down. comply with the rule or face punishment. simple, easy, clear as day.
Try to negotiate with management to allow other stuff, but until that happens, follow the rules.
HotelCo
Forum Deputy Chief
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Nothing on the lockers means just that NOTHING on the lockers.
mycrofft
Still crazy but elsewhere
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Shoulda used a magnet. Or brought a flag duffle.
Lockers are an interesting legal issue. Our local schools have adapted by building sdchools with no lockers and sealing or removing old ones. Now kids trudge around with thirty lb packs or just don't carry the books anyways...which ususally works out ok anyway.
I suspect the lockers in the FD are also subject to no-notice search if such a provision was posted and use of a locker is not mandatory except for FD property such as tools and uniforms.
This is an example of the hairsplitting (as we have seen in other posts and in Congress (
) where the object of the protestor is to confound authority, not to gain any appreciable benefit. This is the sort of personality that considers policies and protocols as "suggestions" and not rules or standards, unless it is to their advantage.
("Paging Ferris Beuhler....").
Lockers are an interesting legal issue. Our local schools have adapted by building sdchools with no lockers and sealing or removing old ones. Now kids trudge around with thirty lb packs or just don't carry the books anyways...which ususally works out ok anyway.
I suspect the lockers in the FD are also subject to no-notice search if such a provision was posted and use of a locker is not mandatory except for FD property such as tools and uniforms.
This is an example of the hairsplitting (as we have seen in other posts and in Congress (
) where the object of the protestor is to confound authority, not to gain any appreciable benefit. This is the sort of personality that considers policies and protocols as "suggestions" and not rules or standards, unless it is to their advantage.("Paging Ferris Beuhler....").
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Aidey
Community Leader Emeritus
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This is what I am apt to say. The FF made an assumption that a flag would be ok, and he was wrong, because his superiors really meant nothing when they said it.
If he thinks the policy should be changed, there are proper channels to go through to do that rather than being insubordinate and throwing a huge hissy fit.
Thats terrible the flag is a staple its just terrible that youcant even be proud to be american everyone has to complain about something but to suspend the guy he should have been told you have 48 hours to remove it or your out Then he would have known they were not kidding and removed it and been ok. but unions are strict thats a shame.
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They negotiated. I don't have a news article, but the flag will
stay, the FF's been reinstated, and will get back pay for the day and a half he was suspended.
Given the public outcry over the weekend, I can't see them having any other option. There was a protest in front of the main fire station - lots of folks - local volunteers, concerned citizens, and some motorcyclists.
Aidey
Community Leader Emeritus
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This has nothing to do with being proud to be an American. The fact is that the department said no decorations on the outside of lockers, period. That the decoration was an American flag is inconsequential. This rule had been in place for over a year when this incident occurred. The FF made an assumption that he would be exempt from the rule because it was the American flag and he was wrong. From the article the FD did issue a warning that he needed to remove it, it was only after he refused that they suspended him.
Here is an update http://www.myfoxphilly.com/dpp/news/local_news/101909_Firefighter_In_Flag_Sticker_Flap_Reinstated
Maybe a sticker of the Russian flag...or Nigerian...French...rainbow decal...who knows.
Or did you mean something else?
JPINFV
Gadfly
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Anything. What's going to happen when someone posts the flag of their heritage? Imagine the outrage if a fire fighter from Mexico puts the Mexican flag up? Or China and Chinese flag?
Union stickers, which will lead to political stickers, which will lead to stickers in general. It's much easier to enforce a full ban on stickers than to fairly enforce a partial ban.
Union stickers, which will lead to political stickers, which will lead to stickers in general. It's much easier to enforce a full ban on stickers than to fairly enforce a partial ban.
DrParasite
The fire extinguisher is not just for show
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not for nothing, but I think that shows incredible weakness on the side of the chief.
not that they allowed the flag. not that he was reinstated. and not that they negotiated.
he received pay for the day and a half he was suspended. it sets the precedent that if you don't like a rule. don't follow it. if you get suspended, work to overturn the rule, and you should get paid for all the time you lost because you didn't follow the rule.
but i am glad that the rule was modified.
btw, I like bunnies. my family has raised them for years. does that mean i can put a playboy bunny on my locker? or a swastika? or a mexican flag with a circle and line through it (to show any immigration)? or any other potentially offensive thing you can think of.
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traumaangel26
Forum Crew Member
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The question I have is did anyone ask the FF why he put the flag on the outside of his locker? He might of had a personal reason as to why he did it and it did not matter what the punishment was. He might have family overseas serving our county and he was supporting them.
JPINFV
Gadfly
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The question I have is did anyone ask the FF why he put the flag on the outside of his locker? He might of had a personal reason as to why he did it and it did not matter what the punishment was. He might have family overseas serving our county and he was supporting them.
That is immaterial. The road to hell is paved with good intentions and if the rule is "Nothing, regardless of why" then the rule is nothing. If you allow the flag because of family members, then can someone else put a cross/Star of David/crescent moon/FSM/etc on their locker because of the good intentions?
Sounds like a stupid policy, but sure glad the union stepped in. Really it's only a sticker of the american flag no less, sounds like this department is running just fine with no other issues that are facing other departments if they have time to make a fuss about a sticker, I mean they didn't think of the over time they would have to shove while this guys was suspended I mean really.
Rob123
Forum Crew Member
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Everything=Everything
A policy is a policy. In this case there's no gray area.
As a member of Middle Management (of a Non-EMS Corporation) for too many years, I have seen many staff members push the envelope regarding all sorts of policies including dress code, language/behavior and the old "no defacing company property" policy.
There have always been select employees that truly enjoy playing in the gray area of select policies such as "no extreme hair styles" . As a Manager, I admit they are always the hardest to deal with. We all should agree that pink hair is extreme but where exactly is the line drawn.
In this case, the policy is clear. Everything=Everything
A policy is a policy. In this case there's no gray area.
As a member of Middle Management (of a Non-EMS Corporation) for too many years, I have seen many staff members push the envelope regarding all sorts of policies including dress code, language/behavior and the old "no defacing company property" policy.
There have always been select employees that truly enjoy playing in the gray area of select policies such as "no extreme hair styles" . As a Manager, I admit they are always the hardest to deal with. We all should agree that pink hair is extreme but where exactly is the line drawn.
In this case, the policy is clear. Everything=Everything
AlphaButch
Forum Lieutenant
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The flag decal was there before the policy was put into place. The policy was made for a reason. The firefighters were ordered to remove everything from the front of their lockers, and this one chose to disobey the order.
I feel he shouldn't have been reimbursed for his suspension. He wasn't suspended for having the decal on his locker. He was suspended for disobeying an order from his chief. This isn't an order that was illegal or injurious.
I feel that he should have sought to have the policy amended if he felt that strongly about it.
I'm also glad that the policy was amended.
I feel he shouldn't have been reimbursed for his suspension. He wasn't suspended for having the decal on his locker. He was suspended for disobeying an order from his chief. This isn't an order that was illegal or injurious.
I feel that he should have sought to have the policy amended if he felt that strongly about it.
I'm also glad that the policy was amended.
usafmedic45
Forum Deputy Chief
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This from the same woman who said that it's OK to violate regulations/laws if it's the moral thing to do or if the homeless guy looks really hungry.... :lol:
However, I agree: nothing means nothing regardless of the chest thumping attitude of "patriots" and this is coming from someone who has put his life at risk to protect this country.