Fire Bashing

[WolfmanHarris]

Well, maybe if the fire departments would do something to prevent their members from being drunk or on coke (cough Boston Fire cough), then there wouldn't be so many threads.

I gave this one some thought for a bit. I considered whether it's the culture of the Fire Service with close quarters and relationships, intensive training and practice and then little in the way of actual fire/rescue calls that might contribute to this. I mean a certain amount of frustration and boredom could account for some poor choices among members. In fact, I was able to rationalize all the poor press received by FD's as a product of their own awareness of their increasing obsolescence. But honestly that was the easy and nasty answer.

Then I considered whether it's the actual instances or the coverage of them that has created an image of the Fire service as irresponsible frat boys and partyers in some areas.

The fact is 9/11 placed the FDNY specifically, but the Fire Service in general in the limelight. In one day the public saw sacrifice and dedication and the bar was set incredibly high. As a result, I would contend that the standard the public holds the FD too makes the mistakes of individual FF's even greater fodder for the news.

In contrast, the public perception of single role EMS providers is diluted at best and the expectations not high. The reasons behind this have been well documented and discussed in this forum, so for brevity I will just list them: education, professionalism, not being an independent service, lack of single clear identity, mixing of IFT services and 911 into the same industry, attempting to run EMS at a profit, volunteer vs. paid vs. whatever. If the majority of the population doesn't know or care about the various companies, levels or service providers and view us largely as Ambulance drivers the bar is set pretty low. With such low expectations, are our individual members as likely to attract the same attention? I mean I don't care if the kid at McDonalds does drugs and to the public we might not be too many steps above that.

So... is the Fire Service any worse than EMS in bad behaviour? Maybe, maybe not. (But given the state of EMS in the USA as a whole; I'm actually willing to bet no.) But Fire certainly attracts the lion's share of the media attention for this behaviour.

Just something to consider.

 

[kd7emt]

How are FDs growing obsolete?

 

[46Young]

Oh, ok. I get it. Every single accident thread is supposed to have the exact same number of posts in it, right? After all, we have to think about the newbies!

No, it's like Triemal said, if there's a FF involved, the thread takes off. It's blatantly obvious.

 

[46Young]

You work for Walmart?

No, by joining the winning team I mean my FD. I have a generous wage/benefits package, job security, and I'm earning more in my first year than many with 4 year degrees in the region. I'm able to pursue degrees on my own terms, at my leisure without any adverse financial impact.

 

[46Young]

One of the things that got people in Florida a little disgusted with the FD in this article was the attitudes displayed openly by the FFs in the newspaper comments section and around St. Pete in very public places. Bashing the person ran over by the fire truck is not the way to handle a hot media article. Their behavior made the local news just as their neighbors Collier County has for their bad public attitude when they think they have been wronged. They need to be more tactful in the way they show support for their fellow firefighters.

Good point.

 

[usafmedic45]

Gentlemen, you can't fight in here! This is the war room.

 

[46Young]

When fire departments actively seek out and destroy 3rd service and private EMS systems for their own selfish needs it tends to lead to dislike of fire based EMS. The IAFF and IAFC realize that putting out fires happens infrequently in the vast majority of this country (US) and without a percieved "need", jobs and budgets will be cut. I am not for cuts in the fire service, however I would be more vocal with my reps in Government about that if it weren't for the active pursuit of EMS at all costs. Just because the IAFF has the power to put other people out of work doesn't mean they should. The talks of "merger" seems to excite people too, lets "merge" departments to save money. How about a couple of fire departments push to merge with an EMS agency, with the EMS agency taking over the fire department? After all, the overwhelming call volume is EMS. Food for thought.

Again, it's self preservation and advancing one's position. Why would a FD willingly give up their power and political muscle to an EMS agency?

As I've said before, EMS needs to fight fire with fire. But few seem willing to do so.

 

[CollegeBoy]

As both a FF and an EMT for my local volly dept I feel that I can speak at both sides of the spectrum.

First, in my opinion, it is not just the media that throws the behaviours of FFs out of proportion. Our department has about 27 members, however at our last fire we had 8 show. This is an amazingly turnout for our department at any time, yet I was personally surprised; it was early saturday morning and I expected alot more people to have hangovers. Yet of us 8 who showed, four of us were still probies as we are so "affectionately" called. The level of respect that our department has developed over the years has diminished because a good number of our members get drunk every night.

At the same time, the medical branch of our department (non-transport) has quickly gained respect. We as a group do not touch any drink because we would prefer to be sober and go on a call than be buzzed and have to stay home. Sure we'd all love a drink every now and then but we just don't. When we do know that we are going to be having a drink, we let each other know so we always have a reasonable number avaliable to go on a medical calls. Of the eight FFs that showed up to the last fire, three of us were medical and therefore had not been drinking the night before.

As for Fire/EMS merging, it simply will not work in some circumstances. Our EMS is paid, but our fire departments are all vollunteer. As small as we are, we are lucky to be able to support a paid ALS service. On top of that, a good majority of those who work EMS would be forced to resign if they were asked to take fire training. Our county has 12 full time EMS positions, and of those I can name two maybee even three that would have their weight DOUBLED by full turnout. Of the others less than half of them would even have the guts to be able to do what FFs do. It just amazes me how people who get puked on for a living don't have the guts to run into a burning building.

 

[WolfmanHarris]

In fact, I was able to rationalize all the poor press received by FD's as a product of their own awareness of their increasing obsolescence. But honestly that was the easy and nasty answer.

How are FDs growing obsolete?

I didn't use a smiley there, but I thought the sarcasm was clear. Rationalizing is generally something you do to delude yourself into believing that not only is something true, that may not be, but that it makes perfect sense.

No, by joining the winning team I mean my FD. I have a generous wage/benefits package, job security, and I'm earning more in my first year than many with 4 year degrees in the region. I'm able to pursue degrees on my own terms, at my leisure without any adverse financial impact.

Again, it's self preservation and advancing one's position. Why would a FD willingly give up their power and political muscle to an EMS agency?

As I've said before, EMS needs to fight fire with fire. But few seem willing to do so.

I have no problem with someone making the right choice for themselves and their family and in the USA it seems the Fire Service is the way to go. The rest I covered in my first post.

It's not up to the Fire Department to stop taking over EMS and admit that they may not be the best provider model. It's up to the other models, whether it be volly or private (whole other discussions), hospital/health system based or independent third service to prove they can do it better and as cost-effectively. It's not an easy fight by any means, but if your main strategy is to view with alarm, wring your hands, whining, but otherwise let it happen; you're not going to win and I suggest you get your NFPA 1001 (think that's what it's called).

I'm incredibly lucky that the heavy lifting in increasing education was done before I entered the career and that for now independent EMS is firmly entrenched in Ontario.

 

[VentMedic]

As both a FF and an EMT for my local volly dept I feel that I can speak at both sides of the spectrum.

First, in my opinion, it is not just the media that throws the behaviours of FFs out of proportion. Our department has about 27 members, however at our last fire we had 8 show. This is an amazingly turnout for our department at any time, yet I was personally surprised; it was early saturday morning and I expected alot more people to have hangovers. Yet of us 8 who showed, four of us were still probies as we are so "affectionately" called. The level of respect that our department has developed over the years has diminished because a good number of our members get drunk every night.

At the same time, the medical branch of our department (non-transport) has quickly gained respect. We as a group do not touch any drink because we would prefer to be sober and go on a call than be buzzed and have to stay home. Sure we'd all love a drink every now and then but we just don't. When we do know that we are going to be having a drink, we let each other know so we always have a reasonable number avaliable to go on a medical calls. Of the eight FFs that showed up to the last fire, three of us were medical and therefore had not been drinking the night before.

Is this how professionalism is measured in volly services?

Whoever is the least hungover or the least drunk at scene is more professional?

 

[Summit]

Is this how professionalism is measured in volly services?

Whoever is the least hungover or the least drunk at scene is more professional?

No kidding... I'm scared to travel in IN. Isn't that where MMiz is from :unsure:

 

[ffemt8978]

No kidding... I'm scared to travel in IN. Isn't that where MMiz is from :unsure:

Nope, he's from Michigan.

 

[46Young]

Wondered when you'd start union promoting ^_^

It's only natural. I'm from NY, where the unions are strong, and I have family in PD, EMS, LIRR, and various trade unions. I've done some traveling, and spoken to many individuals from different industries including EMS and noticed the general disparity in employee empowerment and wage/benefit packages between union and non union shops. (Again, generally speaking)

 

[VentMedic]

different industries including EMS and noticed the general disparity in employee empowerment and wage/benefit packages between union and non union shops. (Again, generally speaking)

In a non union shop I can be promoted for educational and professional accomplishments rather than have a promotion based on how long I have been just a place holder doing the bare minimum while paying union dues that increase proportionately with any raises obtained.

 

[46Young]

When comparing fire based EMS to third service EMS regarding wage/benefit/retirement packages and such, it's obvious that FBEMS has an overwhelming advantage over TSEMS.

Here's my question, if single role EMS agencies could improve their staffing, coverage, response times, job security, wages, benefits, career advancement, working conditions, funding, retirement and all by absorbing and controlling the fire side, would these agencies not seek to do so? I think they would in most cases, if given the chance. I've seen a few on the forum suggest that EMS should take over fire for various reasons. I'm sure that there are other like minded individuals out there.

 

[Summit]

When comparing fire based EMS to third service EMS regarding wage/benefit/retirement packages and such, it's obvious that FBEMS has an overwhelming advantage over TSEMS.

Here's my question, if single role EMS agencies could improve their staffing, coverage, response times, job security, wages, benefits, career advancement, working conditions, funding, retirement and all by absorbing and controlling the fire side, would these agencies not seek to do so? I think they would in most cases, if given the chance. I've seen a few on the forum suggest that EMS should take over fire for various reasons. I'm sure that there are other like minded individuals out there.

That would be funny if there was a EMS/Fire agency.

 

[Foxbat]

Is this how professionalism is measured in volly services?

Whoever is the least hungover or the least drunk at scene is more professional?

Sure. Didn't you know that all we vollies do in our spare time is getting drunk, smoking weed and snorting coke, driving around with our blue lights on and setting fires so we can put them out?

 

[Foxbat]

That would be funny if there was a EMS/Fire agency.

How would you differentiate fire-based EMS service vs. EMS-based fire service?

 

[RyanMidd]

How would you differentiate fire-based EMS service vs. EMS-based fire service?

Probably hiring requirements and the hall outfit. Is it "NFPA 1001 required, NREMT preferred", or vice versa? And does the hall have 6 ambos with a pumper, or 3 pumpers, a command vehicle, and an ambulance?

I really don't know how I'd differentiate, other than whether they show up in turnout gear or in stripes.

 

[46Young]

In a non union shop I can be promoted for educational and professional accomplishments rather than have a promotion based on how long I have been just a place holder doing the bare minimum while paying union dues that increase proportionately with any raises obtained.

Educational and professional accomplishments don't guarantee advancement in an environment using subjective promotional practices.

I understand performance based and educatuion based merit increases, but that leaves too much wiggle rule for favoritism, hooking up those you like and slighting others.

My union, along with others, hire off of an objective promotional list, which gives weight to education in an escalating fashion as you move up the ranks. It's actually difficult to impossible to promote without holding a degree here nowadays. If you score well, you'll be promoted before the next person, fair and square, none of that good ole boy nonsense. We also get guaranteed step increases, unlike some non union shops, who give raises in varying degrees on a case by case basis, depending on how much they like you.

If you're a slacker, you'll be dealt with via progressive discipline, which ultimately results in termination. That keeps the skells in check, and it works well, keeping our members productive.

The system isn't perfect, but I'll still choose guaranteed step increases and COLA's with promotions awarded via a competitive hiring list rather than being at the mercy of my supervisor, who may deny me adequate raises and career advancement due to cronyism.