Fire Bashing

46Young

Level 25 EMS Wizard
3,063
90
48
An article about a private EMS employee involved in an emergency vehicle fatality, which they admitted that they were at fault, gets only seven posts, three of which were mine. None of the usual haters were anywhere to be seen for this thread. I can only imagine the fallout that would have ensued if it were a FD driver involved.
http://www.emtlife.com/showthread.php?t=15428

Another article about a man who was run over by a FD ambulance (still alive, not dead like the other story). This was an accident (the crew does share some of the blame) to which the victim openly admitted (on record to an LEO) that he deliberately put himself in harm's way, and also reduced his profile, with the intent to remove himself from view of the responding crew. This thread received 56 posts, many of them for the purpose of fire bashing, or otherwise making the accident a fire dept thing, implying that if it wasn't fire based EMS then the accident would never have happened.
http://www.emtlife.com/showthread.php?t=15023

Obvious double standard, and these aren't the only two threads.

Here, have fun with this if you want.....

http://www.jems.com/news_and_articles/news/09/iaff_iafc_show_support_for_fire_based_ems.html
 
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WolfmanHarris

Forum Asst. Chief
802
101
43
Fire-basing has been done to death and because I'm exhausted yet unable to sleep, I'll attempt to keep this brief.

- I firebash in the good natured way, to the face of FF's I work with
- While there is no Fire-EMS in my Province (100% third service) many FF's work as Paramedics as a second job. I've worked with a few and liked them all personally and professionally. One is one of my favorite partners.
- I do have issue with Fire on scenes and I take it up with them. They are few, far between and usually a communications breakdown.
- Despite little issue with the FF's I deal with, I take tremendous issue with their organizations (IAFF, IAFC). I respect the consistent effort they make to protect their membership but this places non-fire EMS in their crosshairs
- Paramedicine here is a profession with many years of schooling necessary. There are no true medic mills and no ability to significantly acelerate this. As a result the threat of takeover I feel minimal. I can understand why those who are looking down the barrel of takeover or dominance by Fire feel more personally threatened and thus have animosity towards all FF's. Doesn't excuse whole scale bashing for bashings sake, but it does help explain it.

/Post shift rant ;)
 
OP
OP
4

46Young

Level 25 EMS Wizard
3,063
90
48
Fire-basing has been done to death and because I'm exhausted yet unable to sleep, I'll attempt to keep this brief.

- I firebash in the good natured way, to the face of FF's I work with
- While there is no Fire-EMS in my Province (100% third service) many FF's work as Paramedics as a second job. I've worked with a few and liked them all personally and professionally. One is one of my favorite partners.
- I do have issue with Fire on scenes and I take it up with them. They are few, far between and usually a communications breakdown.
- Despite little issue with the FF's I deal with, I take tremendous issue with their organizations (IAFF, IAFC). I respect the consistent effort they make to protect their membership but this places non-fire EMS in their crosshairs
- Paramedicine here is a profession with many years of schooling necessary. There are no true medic mills and no ability to significantly acelerate this. As a result the threat of takeover I feel minimal. I can understand why those who are looking down the barrel of takeover or dominance by Fire feel more personally threatened and thus have animosity towards all FF's. Doesn't excuse whole scale bashing for bashings sake, but it does help explain it.

/Post shift rant ;)

I can respect that.
 

JPINFV

Gadfly
12,681
197
63
Yea... you mean like all sort of slack on on this accident?


Now if you want a really fun thread, read the one that was cross posted over at EMT City. That one has some acquantance goodness with it.

So... yea... stupidity knows no bounds and generally get's called out regardless of the color of the ambulance.



The JEMS Connect discussion is a lot more heated than that comment page ever will get.
http://connect.jems.com/forum/topics/iaff-iafc-firebased-ems
 
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OP
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46Young

Level 25 EMS Wizard
3,063
90
48
One thing though, it the tables were reversed, and strong EMS political organization had the power instead of the IAFF, I'm quite sure that they would constantly strive to better their position, whether or not FD's were slighted in the process.

Self preservation and improving one's position are simply human nature. Look at every politician that caters to certain classes/demographics to help secure re-elections. Corporations farming out jobs overseas to cut overhead. Walmart, Home Depot, and such outpricing small mom and pop businesses, causing them to fold, thereby attaining an ever increasing market share. Hedge fund managers, who also manage a retail mutual fund, buying stock, holding it, and then allocating it to either the hedge fund or the retail fund, whichever benefits the hedge fund.
 

JPINFV

Gadfly
12,681
197
63
Self preservation and improving one's position are simply human nature. Look at every politician that caters to certain classes/demographics to help secure re-elections. Corporations farming out jobs overseas to cut overhead. Walmart, Home Depot, and such outpricing small mom and pop businesses, causing them to fold, thereby attaining an ever increasing market share. Hedge fund managers, who also manage a retail mutual fund, buying stock, holding it, and then allocating it to either the hedge fund or the retail fund, whichever benefits the hedge fund.

Oh, please. Walmart isn't some sort of devil company that everyone makes it out to be. I'm sure that, given the option, you'd pick the cheaper store almost every time you go shopping if you knew that one store was more expensive. Besides, what's the solution? Government set prices to make sure that there isn't too much competition?
 
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46Young

Level 25 EMS Wizard
3,063
90
48
Yea... you mean like all sort of slack on on this accident?


Now if you want a really fun thread, read the one that was cross posted over at EMT City. That one has some acquantance goodness with it.

So... yea... stupidity knows no bounds and generally get's called out regardless of the color of the ambulance.

The JEMS Connect discussion is a lot more heated than that comment page ever will get.
http://connect.jems.com/forum/topics/iaff-iafc-firebased-ems

I may like to post in my spare time, but I'm not so bored that I look for threads that are over a year and a half old. I haven't looked much behind the time that I joined the forum, to be honest. The links to both stories aren't working, either.

How many new members have joined since those threads ran their course?
 
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46Young

Level 25 EMS Wizard
3,063
90
48
Oh, please. Walmart isn't some sort of devil company that everyone makes it out to be. I'm sure that, given the option, you'd pick the cheaper store almost every time you go shopping if you knew that one store was more expensive. Besides, what's the solution? Government set prices to make sure that there isn't too much competition?

You're missing the point. It's human nature to seek ways to better/solidify your position. I chose to play for the winning team.
 

triemal04

Forum Deputy Chief
1,582
245
63
Oh, please. Walmart isn't some sort of devil company that everyone makes it out to be. I'm sure that, given the option, you'd pick the cheaper store almost every time you go shopping if you knew that one store was more expensive. Besides, what's the solution? Government set prices to make sure that there isn't too much competition?
Well that's a rather silly thing to say, but what the hell, have fun with it.

It doesn't change the fact that for all the whining and *****ing that people will do where fire dept's, IAFF, IAFC and such are concerned...it's the same things that almost every group/profession does, or did at one point in time. And it's the same type of thing that people in EMS, if they actually were willing to WORK for change and not wait for it to arrive on a silver platter, would be doing themselves. Organize, lobby, promote yourself, teach the public and keep them informed, work/lobby for improvements in safety, working conditions, reimbursement, education...seems to have worked for almost everyone else (including fire)...why shouldn't it work for EMS? Oh yeah...cause the big bad fire departments won't let it happen...forgot that for a second. :rolleyes: Before everyone get's to caught up in blaming their problems on someone else, they should be looking around at what non-fire services, and they themselves, are doing to fix the situation. And more often than not, that's nothing.

To the original topic and response from JPINFV, no, there will be topics that always draw a heavy response no matter who's involved; alcohol related issue's being one of them (and in one of your links...wasn't one of the people involved in the crash a poster...that'll up the responses). But generally speaking, and in the majority of instances, if the involved party was a firefighter the thread takes off. If they weren't...not so much.
 

JPINFV

Gadfly
12,681
197
63
How many new members have joined since those threads ran their course?

Oh, ok. I get it. Every single accident thread is supposed to have the exact same number of posts in it, right? After all, we have to think about the newbies!
 

JPINFV

Gadfly
12,681
197
63
Well that's a rather silly thing to say, but what the hell, have fun with it.
Yea. It's silly because someone has a different opinion than yours, right? So, you don't shop at any major grocery stores, major movie chains, major fast food places, or any other chain or big box retail store, right? You seek out those wonderful little mom and pop computer and electronic stores instead of going to Best Buy, correct? Alternatively, is it just Walmart that you hate because Walmart happens to be successful?

To the original topic and response from JPINFV, no, there will be topics that always draw a heavy response no matter who's involved; alcohol related issue's being one of them (and in one of your links...wasn't one of the people involved in the crash a poster...that'll up the responses). But generally speaking, and in the majority of instances, if the involved party was a firefighter the thread takes off. If they weren't...not so much.

The acquaintance didn't post till pretty close to the end of that thread.


Well, maybe if the fire departments would do something to prevent their members from being drunk or on coke (cough Boston Fire cough), then there wouldn't be so many threads.
 

JPINFV

Gadfly
12,681
197
63
Self preservation and improving one's position are simply human nature. Look at every politician that caters to certain classes/demographics to help secure re-elections. Corporations farming out jobs overseas to cut overhead. Walmart, Home Depot, and such outpricing small mom and pop businesses, causing them to fold, thereby attaining an ever increasing market share. Hedge fund managers, who also manage a retail mutual fund, buying stock, holding it, and then allocating it to either the hedge fund or the retail fund, whichever benefits the hedge fund.
Oh, please. Walmart isn't some sort of devil company that everyone makes it out to be. I'm sure that, given the option, you'd pick the cheaper store almost every time you go shopping if you knew that one store was more expensive. Besides, what's the solution? Government set prices to make sure that there isn't too much competition?
You're missing the point. It's human nature to seek ways to better/solidify your position. I chose to play for the winning team.

You work for Walmart?
 
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VentMedic

Forum Chief
5,923
1
0
Another article about a man who was run over by a FD ambulance (still alive, not dead like the other story). This was an accident (the crew does share some of the blame) to which the victim openly admitted (on record to an LEO) that he deliberately put himself in harm's way, and also reduced his profile, with the intent to remove himself from view of the responding crew. This thread received 56 posts, many of them for the purpose of fire bashing, or otherwise making the accident a fire dept thing, implying that if it wasn't fire based EMS then the accident would never have happened.
http://www.emtlife.com/showthread.php?t=15023

One of the things that got people in Florida a little disgusted with the FD in this article was the attitudes displayed openly by the FFs in the newspaper comments section and around St. Pete in very public places. Bashing the person ran over by the fire truck is not the way to handle a hot media article. Their behavior made the local news just as their neighbors Collier County has for their bad public attitude when they think they have been wronged. They need to be more tactful in the way they show support for their fellow firefighters.
 

HuiNeng

Forum Probie
25
0
0
What are the economic factors?

I spoke with two FD officers in my metro area. They both said that it was too expensive for the cities to maintain separate fire and ems departments. I can see their point; if the same personnel resources can be employed in multiple roles, the municipal budget is minimized.

I well understand that someone who wants to play with fire might not want to cross train in ems. After all, I want to do ems but have no desire to do fires.

Given the trend among municipal authorities to outsource services to private vendors, would municipalities see a cost savinigs by outsourcing ems to third services? Is that what the national fire organizations are trying to prevent? But how could that be? If FDs, or some individual FFs, don't like doing ems, wouldn't they cheer to see those responsibilites sent somewhere else?

Do any of you have experience with departments that combine fire and ems as an organization yet maintain separate fire-only specialists and ems-only specialists?
 

rescue99

Forum Deputy Chief
1,073
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0
One thing though, it the tables were reversed, and strong EMS political organization had the power instead of the IAFF, I'm quite sure that they would constantly strive to better their position, whether or not FD's were slighted in the process.

Wondered when you'd start union promoting ^_^
 

boingo

Forum Asst. Chief
518
0
0
When fire departments actively seek out and destroy 3rd service and private EMS systems for their own selfish needs it tends to lead to dislike of fire based EMS. The IAFF and IAFC realize that putting out fires happens infrequently in the vast majority of this country (US) and without a percieved "need", jobs and budgets will be cut. I am not for cuts in the fire service, however I would be more vocal with my reps in Government about that if it weren't for the active pursuit of EMS at all costs. Just because the IAFF has the power to put other people out of work doesn't mean they should. The talks of "merger" seems to excite people too, lets "merge" departments to save money. How about a couple of fire departments push to merge with an EMS agency, with the EMS agency taking over the fire department? After all, the overwhelming call volume is EMS. Food for thought.
 

rescue99

Forum Deputy Chief
1,073
0
0
When fire departments actively seek out and destroy 3rd service and private EMS systems for their own selfish needs it tends to lead to dislike of fire based EMS. The IAFF and IAFC realize that putting out fires happens infrequently in the vast majority of this country (US) and without a percieved "need", jobs and budgets will be cut. I am not for cuts in the fire service, however I would be more vocal with my reps in Government about that if it weren't for the active pursuit of EMS at all costs. Just because the IAFF has the power to put other people out of work doesn't mean they should. The talks of "merger" seems to excite people too, lets "merge" departments to save money. How about a couple of fire departments push to merge with an EMS agency, with the EMS agency taking over the fire department? After all, the overwhelming call volume is EMS. Food for thought.

I think of it more as a member of my community and how our fire department is charging residents for a service via a tax millage then, having the greedy nerve to also charge insurance companies for that very same service whether the call is ALS or BLS. As a tax payer, this kind of diservice is why private EMS with a part time fire response is a better idea. It's a whole lot cheaper to charge only those who use the service rather than charging the whole community in addition to a per-use charge on top of fire response.

My disagrements over double dipping have encouraged the local chief to suggest my( Fire Dept. Captain) husband "try to control" me a little better...lol!! His response...."um, no, never tried, don't want to go there either."
 

reaper

Working Bum
2,817
75
48
The problem with that train of thought is that tax millage is there for the "just in case". The tax base is paying for the personnel,equipment, and stations to be there. It is not designed to cover the actual service rendered. It was never designed that way.

Even private services that work off transport fees only, do not survive very long. the overhead is too much. A lot of cities that use private services, still pay them a use fee per year. This is to help offset overhead costs of the service.

County third services fair well, because their collections help reduce the amount of tax dollars spent on the service.

Now, should tax millage for FD's be 3 times as high as an ems millage? That is a better debate to be arguing!
 

Summit

Critical Crazy
2,691
1,312
113
The Fire Department is not as cool as the Water Department.
 

BLSBoy

makes good girls go bad
733
2
16
Well, maybe if the fire departments would do something to prevent their members from being drunk or on coke (cough Boston Fire cough), then there wouldn't be so many threads.

The every ubiquitous mudslinging. ahhh yes.
 
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