EMT-P as M.D.

Good post describing the differences in education.

Having said all of that, I have a lot of respect for field medicine, and I love doing it. I volunteered at a Mississippi shelter after Katrina and just spent five days volunteering with 315 dogs who'd been seized from a "rescue". We had very few vets come to help, in a community where they are coming out of the woodwork, and several who showed up left almost immediately when they realized they'd be working in tents in a parking lot; with a lot of filthy, emaciated, barking dogs; tracking through mud; with no toys at all. They just couldn't handle working outside of their nice clean clinics.

I would imagine that some ER MDs would not handle field medicine very well either, outside of their comfort zone, without all of the fancy equipment and support staff. Crawling into a wrecked car and figuring out a way to strap the patient to a backboard might not be something they could do, but if EMS weren't there to get the patients to the hospital alive, the ER MDs wouldn't be able to do their thing.

Katrina was a challenge not many were prepared for. However, one must remember all of those, including yourself, that did make a difference. There were many doctors and medical professionals that did care enough to endure the problems of a horrible situation. A few, such as Dr. Anna Pou and her nurses, even had to endure scrutiny and a lengthy legal process for making tough decisions which has little precedence in this country during recent times.

For the ED and all of the fancy gadgets, some are very necessary to save a life that has been brought to it by the Paramedics. While it is great to talk about doing so much with so little, one must also remember it takes a team and sometimes the fancy gadgets to give a person a chance to continue living hopefully to the fullest with quality.
 
I would imagine that some ER MDs would not handle field medicine very well either, outside of their comfort zone, without all of the fancy equipment and support staff. Crawling into a wrecked car and figuring out a way to strap the patient to a backboard might not be something they could do, but if EMS weren't there to get the patients to the hospital alive, the ER MDs wouldn't be able to do their thing.

There's an ever increasing number of MD's with a prehospital background. Plus most ER residents ride at least once during their residency. I would guess that most ER docs could figure out your scenario without much problem though.

Great post though.
 
Well, I'm a veterinarian, not a physician, but the education level is the same, and veterinary medical school admission in the U.S. is actually more competitive than human medical school admission. Veterinary ER medicine is a specialty that requires a three-year residency even to be eligible to take boards.

I'm applying to paramedic school for this fall and have my interview in two weeks, but I'll keep working as a vet. So I can't speak for the paramedic curriculum yet, but I can say that the EMT-B anatomy and physiology was incredibly simple compared to the level we had to learn in veterinary school. We spent six weeks on the anatomy and physiology of the kidney alone.

Just an example. We learned in EMT class that there are "twelve cranial nerves", when there are actually twelve pair. That was all we needed to know. I believe in paramedic school we will have to know the names and general functions of each pair.

For my neurology class in vet school, which was an entire semester long, we had to learn the name of each pair; whether it was sensory, motor, or both; what areas were innervated by each pair; the route each pair took to the brain, including the names of all of the foramina through which they passed; and the area of the brain where the information was processed. We had to be able to look at sections of brain and identify all of the anatomical landmarks, and discuss in detail what each area or nucleus does.

That was ONE small part of ONE class during ONE semester. For three years we had full-time classroom, 15-20 credits per semester. It was like trying to drink from a firehose. I have about ten bookshelf feet of textbooks and twelve of notes. My dog and cat internal medicine textbook alone is 1400 pages long.

We were also taught how to "think like doctors". That meant we had to have a detailed understanding of the anatomy and physiology and biochemistry of every one of the body's systems, and be able to apply that knowledge to a clinical presentation of a patient who could be one of many species and who can't talk. To do that, we needed to understand biology, chemistry, organic chemistry, physics, genetics, biochemistry, etc., and we had to have that understanding going in to the very first day of class.

I could be wrong, and no doubt the paramedics here will correct me if I am, but I don't think paramedic school gives someone the background to enter that level of education. It's just a different way of looking at things. ER MDs are more than paramedics with more education--they have a whole underlying understanding of the human organism, based on their years of education, and they apply that to their cases.

It may not come into play during illnesses and injuries they see regularly, but when that big ol' zebra comes trotting down the hall, they have a whole base of knowledge and experience to draw on that they wouldn't have if they had gone directly from being paramedics to a limited ER MD-type training.

Having said all of that, I have a lot of respect for field medicine, and I love doing it. I volunteered at a Mississippi shelter after Katrina and just spent five days volunteering with 315 dogs who'd been seized from a "rescue". We had very few vets come to help, in a community where they are coming out of the woodwork, and several who showed up left almost immediately when they realized they'd be working in tents in a parking lot; with a lot of filthy, emaciated, barking dogs; tracking through mud; with no toys at all. They just couldn't handle working outside of their nice clean clinics.

I would imagine that some ER MDs would not handle field medicine very well either, outside of their comfort zone, without all of the fancy equipment and support staff. Crawling into a wrecked car and figuring out a way to strap the patient to a backboard might not be something they could do, but if EMS weren't there to get the patients to the hospital alive, the ER MDs wouldn't be able to do their thing.
Good post! In fact, cranial nerves were not even mentioned in my EMT class. Paramedic school is mediocre. I am learning a lot, but I feel like it is totally inadequate. Whenever something like pharmacology is discussed and we get into detail, discussing GABA for example, I want to know more of the biochemistry instead of just the name and the fact that it fits into a receptor to increase chloride intake. I have found that paramedic school does actually go into some depth (for example, the pathophysiology chapter actually contains most of the information in the first few chapters of Robbins Pathologic Basis of Disease), but a lot of chemistry is left out and the style of writing and lecture is made for a high school student. As a Doctor (Vet) you will probably feel there is more to be desired. We do learn how to form a working diagnosis however, and I think that is why we are called Paramedics ( read: like medicine, or similar to a doctor).
 
As a Doctor (Vet) you will probably feel there is more to be desired. We do learn how to form a working diagnosis however, and I think that is why we are called Paramedics ( read: like medicine, or similar to a doctor).

I imagine I'll be plenty challenged by a lot of the paramedic class even though I've had a lot of the academic stuff before. I'm looking forward to a new challenge and thinking in a different way and learning new skills and having patients who might be able to talk to me!

And I really will have to break myself of the habit, which is very common in veterinary medicine, of uncapping needles with my teeth! :)
 
"I would imagine that some ER MDs would not handle field medicine very well either, outside of their comfort zone, without all of the fancy equipment and support staff. Crawling into a wrecked car and figuring out a way to strap the patient to a backboard might not be something they could do, but if EMS weren't there to get the patients to the hospital alive, the ER MDs wouldn't be able to do their thing."
This is not meant to be a slam against any group,but more of a statement toward individuals. As RJMDDV stated here (some) MDs could not handle this,nor can (some) EMTs medics or FRs. Not all fit in this category,the people who excel in their chosen field are the ones who can overcome being put out of their comfort zone. However being able to adapt to situations is not the same as an education in your chosen field.
 
Approximately how many lecture hours they spend on A&P in paramedic class?
 
rjddvm;
EMT A&P can't even be compared to medic A&P.

EMT A&P is like "This is in this location, and it makes this"

Medic A&P is like "This in in this location, this is what it makes, this is how it makes it, why it makes it, when it makes it, how it's released, how it's used, how it's gotten rid of, where it goes, what it effects, what helps it, and what hurts it"


While not even close to a medical schools A&P, or even as thorough as A&P1/2, it's way more in depth then EMT.



Fox--- We're spending >6 weeks just for the foundation, then go more in depth for each section, such as when we go in to cardiac, respiratory, and the like. (Keep in mind it's an 11 month class)
 
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Plus most ER residents ride at least once during their residency.

Is there anyting out there to support that statement? I have met many, many ER docs and few have ever seen the back of an ambulance.
 
Is there anyting out there to support that statement? I have met many, many ER docs and few have ever seen the back of an ambulance.

That depends on where they did their residency and if it was in EM. Ours do ride with Fire Rescue during their rotation. In fact, some of our doctors are from the days when doctors were a member of EMS on each ALS truck during the 1980s.

Some doctors that work in the ED may not have actually done a residency in EM.
EM is one of the boards that came about within the past 30 years and there was a significant grandfathering period.

Even the doctors who are medical directors for EMS have varying board certs and residencies.
 
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Fox--- We're spending >6 weeks just for the foundation, then go more in depth for each section, such as when we go in to cardiac, respiratory, and the like. (Keep in mind it's an 11 month class)
That does not sound bad. A&P that I'm taking through my university is normally 6 hours a week for 2 semesters (~24 weeks), but the summer version is 12 hours a week for 12 weeks. It souns like A&P in paramedic school is not much shorter.

VentMedic said:
Ours do ride with Fire Rescue during their rotation. In fact, some of our doctors are from the days when doctors were a member of EMS on each ALS truck during the 1980s.
When and why did this practice stop? I always thought in the US it was considered too expensive, but apparently it has been used.
 
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That does not sound bad. A&P that I'm taking through my university is normally 6 hours a week for 2 semesters (~24 weeks), but the summer version is 12 hours a week for 12 weeks. It souns like A&P in paramedic school is not much shorter.

Keep in mind that the whole Paramedic program will be covered in 11 months or less by going a few hours each week. It will take two to three college semesters just for the basic college A&P with lab classes. The amount of prep for a Paramedic level A&P will also come nowhere near what a college level class requires. For any other medical specialty such as nursing, RT, PT etc, many more classes will be taken to go indepth. For RT, most Paramedics can not challenge out of a RT 101 class because it is built upon from the college level A&P classes and another Respiratory A&P class.

When and why did this practice stop? I always thought in the US it was considered too expensive, but apparently it has been used.

Cost and confidence that Paramedics could get the patient to the hospital were the two biggest factors to ending it.

I believe there are a couple of services in the NE that put EM residents in a flycar and let them run to all the serious calls to gain field experience and direct care.
 
I believe there are a couple of services in the NE that put EM residents in a flycar and let them run to all the serious calls to gain field experience and direct care.
I know Pittsburgh, Seattle, and Houston have these. But I was surprised that some services actually had MDs on each ALS truck. I presonally would be glad to see that make a comeback, or maybe even have specialized MICU available for 911 calls (cardiological MICU with a cardiologist, pediatric MICU with a pediatrician, etc.), like they do in ex-USSR.
 
I know Pittsburgh, Seattle, and Houston have these. But I was surprised that some services actually had MDs on each ALS truck. I presonally would be glad to see that make a comeback, or maybe even have specialized MICU available for 911 calls (cardiological MICU with a cardiologist, pediatric MICU with a pediatrician, etc.), like they do in ex-USSR.

There are surgeons and physicians that do go to the scene when needed for special situations such as an amputation.

As well, there are many specialized teams that do take physicians along when needed such as for ECMO. Usually a neonatalogist and surgeon will accompany the RN and RRT which either an RN or RRT being the ECMO Specialist to cannulate the infant or child onsite and transport back to their facility.
 
I know Pittsburgh, Seattle, and Houston have these. But I was surprised that some services actually had MDs on each ALS truck. I presonally would be glad to see that make a comeback, or maybe even have specialized MICU available for 911 calls (cardiological MICU with a cardiologist, pediatric MICU with a pediatrician, etc.), like they do in ex-USSR.

That is why Paramedics were invented. They extend the physician into the field. We do not need MDs on trucks because the paramedic is the MD's agent, who (should be) educated in comprehensive out of hospital medicine. That said, I do think EM and EMS residents should do scene responses, but not because they can provide MD level care, but because it is a learning experience for them, and a learning experience for the paramedics who work with them.
 
That is why Paramedics were invented. They extend the physician into the field.

However, this is not to be confused with physician extenders which are PAs and NPs.

If you read some of the statements of the doctors who were behind establishing the early days of EMS, it is almost insulting as to how they thought a few advanced skills could be taught to just about anyone. Thus, monkey skills are still sometimes used to described "skills". As well, the education has been downplayed by some as in the article I reference occasionally that it only takes 200 hours and not 2000 to train a Paramedic.
 
i cant answer the question on whether or not MD's do ride alongs on ambulances during their residency, i can say this, that around here we answer to a medical director that is responsible for that ambulance service, and they are MD's. They deal with the medical control aspect of the ambulance service but i would assume that they have some experience hands on with medics and EMT's so that they could better be suited for the job of making decisions for medics, just by hearing a radio report of symptoms and not actually being able to evaluate the patients.
 
secondly, i am not sure what others medic school curriculum is, but i know what mine is that i am starting in August, will be 1 day a week from 9am-5pm for 13 months, but there will be 5 instructors, not 1 teaching the class and seperate instructors will come in for NIMS, HAZMAT, and Crime Scene, also there will be 500 clinical hours required, 120 hours for ridealong each semester on a rig, and so many practicals performed in the aloted time (defibs, intubations, iv's, cardiac interpretation, etc...)...this is just my class here in So. ILL
 
secondly, i am not sure what others medic school curriculum is, but i know what mine is that i am starting in August, will be 1 day a week from 9am-5pm for 13 months, but there will be 5 instructors, not 1 teaching the class and seperate instructors will come in for NIMS, HAZMAT, and Crime Scene, also there will be 500 clinical hours required, 120 hours for ridealong each semester on a rig, and so many practicals performed in the aloted time (defibs, intubations, iv's, cardiac interpretation, etc...)...this is just my class here in So. ILL

Classroom: We'll be generous and give you the full 8 hours each day although there will probably be 1 hour for lunch. As well, we'll say a full 56 weeks but there will probably be a couple of holiday breaks.

8 x 56 = 448 hour

plus

500 clinical hours

plus

120 hours for ride alongs

equals

1048 hours of training

That is average for a tech school Paramedic program....unfortunately.
 
Classroom: We'll be generous and give you the full 8 hours each day although there will probably be 1 hour for lunch. As well, we'll say a full 56 weeks but there will probably be a couple of holiday breaks.

8 x 56 = 448 hour

plus

500 clinical hours

plus

120 hours for ride alongs

equals

1048 hours of training

That is average for a tech school Paramedic program....unfortunately.


This is good to know, i was not sure for such schooling what the base time was, thanks for that info. Also i found out i will be able to jump into Mod. C of firefighter II again, as i was originally not going to be able to becuase of medic school, the classes changed and i will be going from medic school down to main campus for mod C all in 1 day....ill be thinking medical, medical, medical and then switch gears to fire, fire, fire...oh what fun

I also forgot to mention the 120 hours for ride alongs is for both semesters....120 for Intermediate and 120 for Paramedic, still doesnt change much but just wanted to clarify
 
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