EMT-P as M.D.

silver said:
you know in total to be an attending in EM is 12 years.

4 year residency in EM <-good luck compressing that, most residents spend their life in the hospital already.
Click to expand...

/me being pedantic. Well, there are 3 year EM programs. EM programs come in 3 flavors. PGY 1-3, PGY 1-4, and PGY 2-4 (internship year done elsewhere).
 
While we are at this why don't we create a bridge program from first aid to paramedic? /sarcasm
 
hotzelj said:
Maybe I should re-state. Perhaps most come from a different thinking of the education of "Paramedic."

First Responder: 1 Month education
EMT-Basic: 3 Month education
EMT-Paramedic: 2 Years education
EMT-Paramedic P.A.: 3 Years education
EMT-Paramedic P.A. Residency: 2 Years Education
EMT-M.D.: 2 Years education
EMT-M.D. EM: 2 Years education

9 Years and 4 Months of MEDICAL education. Anyone doing this program would have to already have a degree in general education, math, science, and bio-physiology. Thus, 4 more years of non-medical education.
Click to expand...

Why do you have to be Paramedic before being an ER doc? They are two different species as far as working conditions go. It basically just sounds like you are rearranging the course work in a normal med school curriculum. Also, you have to think about attrition: adequate pre-med preparation is meant to, in effect, weed-out those not committed to the medical profession. You don't want to have a bunch of people in your "paramedic-to-md" program that quit half-way through. Its a waste of money to train them and its a waste of spots that dedicated people could have had. Realize the once a person is accepted to med school they have a 95% chance of finishing because admission criteria is so strict.
 
hotzelj said:
Maybe I should re-state. Perhaps most come from a different thinking of the education of "Paramedic."

First Responder: 1 Month education
EMT-Basic: 3 Month education
EMT-Paramedic: 2 Years education
EMT-Paramedic P.A.: 3 Years education
EMT-Paramedic P.A. Residency: 2 Years Education
EMT-M.D.: 2 Years education
EMT-M.D. EM: 2 Years education

9 Years and 4 Months of MEDICAL education. Anyone doing this program would have to already have a degree in general education, math, science, and bio-physiology. Thus, 4 more years of non-medical education.

So, add 4 Years to 9 Years and you get 13 Years - beat that 12 Year doctors.

I don't think the technical side of medicine takes all that long, it's simply information, it's the clinical/theory-application in the real world that takes the time to master. For some people, the technical information takes a lot of time to learn, while for others it is quick and easy. For almost everyone though, the clinical will take the longest, and I think that is where the Gold Standard in the Level of Care is found. This is no suprise to any of you right? As a newbie Paramedic you knew the technical side, but unless you were working as an EMT Basic while going to school, you didn't have the clinical experiance required to increase the level of care.

I am not trying to ask for an M.D. mill. My definition of an Emergency Physician is different than anothers. An E.M.D. to me is a field doctor, who can do what is needed out in the field in a way that is higher than pre-hospital ALS (paramedic), but is not the same as a GP or Family Practice doctor.

Please know I understand the great deal of knowledge required and that medicine is not something to be done in haste. One clarifying point is that I don't care for "intermediates" in the EMS chain. Either be a basic person or be a paramedic, and everyone should be a paramedic if you're going to be in EMS. I also think that a "paramedic" should rise at least half-way to being a P.A. That way, the "next level of training" in EMS would not be a leap, but just more technical, theoretical, and clinical education.

I guess my point was I'd like the EMT profession to be integrated into the medical profession, the medical schools, boards, etc. I'd like the EMTs to be able to go from First Responder, EMT Basic, EMT Paramedic, PA, MD - all with a specialization in emergency medicine.
Click to expand...

why would someone whose final goal of becoming an MD stop at PA? why not stop at RN then?

and JP at the major teaching hospitals it is mostly 4 years from what I've seen.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
What's with the EMT-Paramedic PA title?

The EMT-Paramedic cert or license is not recognized within the walls of hospitals in many states.

If you are a P.A. you have an expanded scope under a different license. But, the residency for the P.A. is very different from that of an M.D. with very different expectations.

EMT-M.D.?

Get over being an EMT if you want to be an M.D. and move on with your education. You need to be progressive in your thought process and not dwell on just what you were able to do in prehospital medicine.

There is a science to why medical school is designed as it is. There are also reasons why Paramedic school is as it is and also why it is still a cert with so many saying there is no need to get a lot of book learning with it. Medical school is a process of education and skills while the Paramedic programs are, unfortunately, structured around a tech school philosophy with a emphasis on a few skills for quick training. That is also why, sadly, it is popular with FDs to require all of their FFs to be Paramedics.

BTW, a physician can challenge the Paramedic test if they just want to add a title or see what the test is all about. However, it might be better if the actual test remains a mystery so there can be an illusion of knowing more than what is actually required to be a Paramedic.
 
>>why would someone whose final goal of becoming an MD stop at PA? why not stop at RN then?

Not sure I follow, but I think nursing should be incorporated into a complete medical education.

There's the old saying that nurses know more about medicine then doctors.

My sister is a CNA at a hospital and care facility.
 
You know, why don't we just say nobody is good enough, and drop the whole medical field all together? I mean, it seems like everyone thinks education for doctors should be 100 years before ever getting an M.D.

I agree. I mean, think of how smart a doctor would be who attended school for 100 years.
 
hotzelj said:
You know, why don't we just say nobody is good enough, and drop the whole medical field all together? I mean, it seems like everyone thinks education for doctors should be 100 years before ever getting an M.D.

I agree. I mean, think of how smart a doctor would be who attended school for 100 years.
Click to expand...
What do you find so bad about the requirements for medical school as it is now?

Is it too difficult or too long or both?

Why do you feel a two year medic school program entitles you to be a doctor?

Where do you get the Paramedic and the Physician as being that close in experience or education?

Why do you want other professions, including the doctor, to follow the same shortcuts that have been a hindrance in advancing EMS?
 
Last edited by a moderator:
No answer to Q1.

Q2. Yes, too long (for me anyways).
Q3. Complex, but it realy involves changing the entire medical education structure as it exists now.
Q4. I don't. I want it to become closer, though. See note on P.A.
Q5. Not sure about what shortcuts have been taken, and about what "advancement" has been limited, and in so as well what the definition or direction is of EMS advancement.

What is going on in EMS right now? Since I am new, please inform me. What's the Big Pitcure? All I have is my current training and the experiance of my aunt who was an EMT back in the early 1980s in Wisconsin.
 
hotzelj said:
You know, why don't we just say nobody is good enough, and drop the whole medical field all together? I mean, it seems like everyone thinks education for doctors should be 100 years before ever getting an M.D.

I agree. I mean, think of how smart a doctor would be who attended school for 100 years.
Click to expand...

I have so much to say on this that I am using a great deal of restraint. I am not going to even start on how hard it is to get in to medical school, something which you are minimizing

You are missing the point of the process of becoming a doctor. The human body is an EXTREMELY COMPLEX thing. You are dismissing the entire didactic portion of becoming a doctor (6 or more years) This is the basis for the advancement of the medical field. Doctors are required to have a DEEP understanding of the human body. From the body as a whole down to the molecular level and all the complex workings between.

It is with this knowledge that they are able to treat patients, that is to truly understand what their treatments are doing, what their drugs are doing, etc. etc. etc.

Its not an issue of time (12 years vs your 13 YEARS!!! wooo you beat 'em).

The process of education in your proposal is ridiculous. The only requirement for paramedic school is being and EMT-B (first responder) and taking a basic A&P class. And while medic school can be intense, they are only teaching you to deal with patients symptomatically (get the patient to the ER alive).

If you would like to see a connection between paramedics and med school, than paramedic school should be a 4 year degreee, with 1 year biology, 1 year physics, 1 year english/humanities, 1 year general chem with a lab class, 1 year organic chemistry with a lab class.

Then after you establish that, paramedics (with their 4 year degree) can compete with all the other College grads to get in to traditional medical training where they can become an EM MD in 7-8 years like the rest of us.

But to say that a person with a certification (that has no major pre-req's and doesn't provide a full education) should be able to skip 4 years of medical school and do a shortened 2 year residency (normal EM residency 3-4 years) is down right ridiculous.

What is a Paramedic PA? You also mentioned PA as being between paramedic and MD, which is incorrect. PA school requires a 4 year degree, so paramedic school is out, and although PAs can apply to medical school, their 3 years of PA grad school is not required as a prerequisite, their application to medical school would be based on their 4 year bachelors.

I'm going take a shot in the dark and say you are <20yrs of age?
 
Last edited by a moderator:
hotzelj said:
>>why would someone whose final goal of becoming an MD stop at PA? why not stop at RN then?

Not sure I follow, but I think nursing should be incorporated into a complete medical education.

There's the old saying that nurses know more about medicine then doctors.

My sister is a CNA at a hospital and care facility.
Click to expand...

It already is...

RN
BSN
NP
DscN
 
In the 2010-2011 academic year I will be applying to go to Centennial College in Toronto to attend the Paramedic program there. It's a 2 yr program. After I complete that I will be eligible and will take 2 more years at the University of Toronto for the Bachelor of Science in Paramedicine. This is because I believe that in the future the education requirements here in Canada will go up. In order for he profession to improve education as to increase. If we are to gain respect fro other health care professions then we have to keep up with them. Because in my view with the increase in education that will lead to an improved scope of practice and better pay. Now isn't that what we all would like. I know I would.
 
OP, which years of med school would be skipped? The preclinical years learning gross anatomy and physiology? The clinical years doing rotations?

I would like to point out that even PA-Cs are now opting to complete a one year residency in their subspecialty. I have provided the link to post-grad clinical residences for PAs in a previous thread.

I would also like to point out that there are already programs out there for Medics wishing to practice general medicine. These include PA programs in California like Riverside Community College and Stanford University (highly favorable towards medics and RNs). As a paramedic, you will have to complete a standard course list that is required by the state for entrance into PA school, including microbiology, chemistry, psychology, anatomy and physiology, anthropology, and english. After that, you complete two years of medical education that follows the medical model, and than move into employment or a residency as above.

I have also heard that Osteopathic schools are more willing to look favorably on previous healthcare professionals willing to make the leap to physician. JP would know more about that. Of course, this is HARDLY going to make up for any bad grades in undergrad or a poor MCAT. You can also try for the traditional allopathic route (MD). Physicians are supposed to have a broad background in basic science.

Bottom line, you have options as a paramedic to move into the practice medicine. All of these options are going to require hard work and a real education. FYI, in California, to be licensed as a physician, you must have two years of chemistry undergrad. It is in the business and professions code.
 
SanDiegoEmt7 said:
It already is...

RN
BSN
NP
DscN
Click to expand...

That is laughable. DNPs are not physicians nor do they want to be. They are not even educated in the medical model.

PAs and NPs are health care professionals who also know their role and when the services of a specialist physician are needed.
 
DO schools, in general, look more favorable on non-trad applicants or those with experience. That said, they aren't going to just let someone skip courses based only on past experiences.
 
daedalus said:
That is laughable. DNPs are not physicians nor do they want to be. They are not even educated in the medical model.

PAs and NPs are health care professionals who also know their role and when the services of a specialist physician are needed.
Click to expand...

I didn't mean they were doctors. Rather that they had a progression of education levels. The OP mentioned that he wanted paramedics and nursing to have access to higher education, and nurses already do. Not to mention that any nurse with a BSN or higher could apply to medical school.
 
SanDiegoEmt7 said:
I didn't mean they were doctors. Rather that they had a progression of education levels. The OP mentioned that he wanted paramedics and nursing to have access to higher education, and nurses already do. Not to mention that any nurse with a BSN or higher could apply to medical school.
Click to expand...

I was under the impression that you were saying DscN was an alternative to going to medical school. My apologizes.
 
You're kidding right?

Right?

Seriously, don't bother confusing FR and EMTB with medical education. Heck, don't bother comparing most EMT-P programs with comprehensive, well rounded medical education.

EMS is just a small, limited, subset of medicine as a whole, despite whatever illusions the OP might have had.
 
Wow. I can't believe I clicked on this thread but I did. I can't believe that someone actually is advocating Medic to MD bridge. What the deuce?! Seriously... wow. Just wow.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top