EMT/Fire Fighters and gun control

[MedicAngel]

Not sure how to put this into words. I live and run in Virginia. There is a huge debate on a 2nd amendment rights board about whether EMT's and Fire Fighters should be allowed to conceal carry a weapon while either in a paid or volunteer basis. So, I am posing this question to those of you who run in either capacity what your views are.

I personally think when your in either capacity your there to do a certain job and to save a life, least that is how I view it. I was not taught to take a life, nor there to protect someone should a gun fight break out or if I roll upon one. That is what we have the police for. What you do OFF duty is your own business and if you want to carry then that is your own business and your right. Make sense? I also don't want a possible scene that may go south to truly get worse or someone who has issues realize that my partner has a weapon and then it goes bad.

Now I am put as an anti gun person, which I am not. If you all would give me your views and your ideas, I would appreciate it. And I hope that those on this board don't resort to name calling or anything else.

 

[curt]

Your second amendment right interferes with my right to not get shot

Honestly, I don't think we really need firearms, especially with the possibility of screwing someone up because they've had a medical emergency that turned them into a violent psych. Honestly, though, I wouldn't terribly mind having tasers instead.

Anyway, keep the SO in the SO and EMS in EMS. We've got our jobs, and we've got to have enough trust in the other services that they're going to do their job too.

 

[medic417]

We never know when a call will go bad. You may not be able to survive long enough for the cops to get there. At least if people have gotten the education and certification to carry a firearm you have a fighting chance. W/O you are a sitting duck. Why does your feelings about being willing to become a defenseless target mean I should have no right to defend myself?

And if a service places a no carry policy for licensed people and they get shot the service will lose in the law suit that follows.

A properly concealed firearm will never be seen, so just make a policy that a firearm may not be visible at work.

 

[Hockey]

We never know when a call will go bad. You may not be able to survive long enough for the cops to get there. At least if people have gotten the education and certification to carry a firearm you have a fighting chance. W/O you are a sitting duck. Why does your feelings about being willing to become a defenseless target mean I should have no right to defend myself?

And if a service places a no carry policy for licensed people and they get shot the service will lose in the law suit that follows.

A properly concealed firearm will never be seen, so just make a policy that a firearm may not be visible at work.

100% +1 agree

 

[DT4EMS]

EMS should not be armed. Period. This debate has risen several times and always leads to hacking people off.

I work hard enough trying to keep EMS,..... EMS. If the general public "believed" you were armed it is going to make "unknown medicals" that much worse.

Sorry, but I used to carry a firearm while on EMS duty (I was full-time LEO, part-time EMT-P). One day I didn't.......... that was the day my ambulance was car-jacked. When it was all said and done........ I was GLAD I didn't have a gun. The BG would have been dead....... the headlines would have read "Paramedic Shoots man inside ambulance"
.

Feel free to debate it.......... don't get too angry........... but that is my opinion.

 

[MedicAngel]

Thank you so far for your replies...and yes, please, lets keep this from becoming an all out flame war. I am just asking for opinions and what you feel is right or not and why.

 

[fortsmithman]

I don't think EMS should be armed. Although a TASER would be nice. Our job is to save lives not take them. Intsead of a firearm how about taking a self defence course.

 

[firecoins]

EMS should not be armed.

 

[medic417]

So we should be helpless sheep led to the slaughter?

Even being skilled in self defense does not help if they start shooting from across the room. You are pinned down and eventually the shooter will reposition to be able to take a shot at you behind whatever you are hiding behind. At least with a firearm you could attempt to buy time or even stop the assault.

In the patient compartment you are close enough going for gone would be stupid, just beat them with O2 tank or monitor.

There are many providers that carry and funny have not ever heard of any getting into a wild west shootout for fun.

 

[AJ Hidell]

I was not taught to take a life, nor there to protect someone should a gun fight break out or if I roll upon one. That is what we have the police for.

Wow, you have cops partnered with you at all times during your shift? Aren't you lucky to be the only one!

 

[Sasha]

We never know when a call will go bad. You may not be able to survive long enough for the cops to get there. At least if people have gotten the education and certification to carry a firearm you have a fighting chance. W/O you are a sitting duck. Why does your feelings about being willing to become a defenseless target mean I should have no right to defend myself?

And if a service places a no carry policy for licensed people and they get shot the service will lose in the law suit that follows.

A properly concealed firearm will never be seen, so just make a policy that a firearm may not be visible at work.

Let's use your normal argument.

No other medical professional carries a fire arm, why should we?

You're telling me that you will be able to pull out your gun and shoot faster than the person who already has a gun on you pulls the trigger? Don't you think that sudden unpredictable movement will scare the gunman into shooting when before all he was doing was threatning?

 

[MedicAngel]

Wow, you have cops partnered with you at all times during your shift? Aren't you lucky to be the only one!

I only meant that IF something goes bad or we get to a scene that may not be good, we can just as easily call for back up. I know the adage of "seconds count when the police are only minutes away". I am sorry if I led you to assume that we have police for every call, we don't. Certain calls yes, the police are usually there before us if not right behind us.

 

[curt]

It's true that our job is dangerous, but if they start shooting first from just across a room, it's a pretty sure bet that you're not going to be able to go back in time and shoot them first. Besides, room distance is still within TASER range, so why blow them and the person in the next apartment over away when you could disable them with a non-lethal device? Besides, not everyone's going to be equally armed. If some crackhead's charging you down, the law's not going to be forgiving if you see fit to put him down with your gun, even if you felt you were in imminent danger, because the threat was not equal to the response.

Also, you should have the good sense to recognize and call SO on 98% of the high-potential troublemakers before you handle them.

Finally, it's not our role to carry firearms. Do you think we could really be truly trusted by the public if they knew we could pop a cap in their hides? I think not. It'd probably complicate our jobs more than anything. Besides, whatever is on that ambulance that they want, it's not worth losing or risking your life for. Drugs, ambubags, cardiac monitors can all be replaced, brains can't. A TASER should be more than sufficient for almost every scenario we're bound to encounter.

I understand where the 'for' argument is coming from, but I just can't see a very solid justification for it.

 

[Hockey]

I know some paramedics that carry guns. But they are Sheriff Paramedics (do both Police & Medical)

I'm just waiting to hear from someone that doesn't allow a police officer board "their" ambulance without leaving their firearm behind...

 

[AJ Hidell]

Also, you should have the good sense to recognize and call SO on 98% of the high-potential troublemakers before you handle them.

It's always so easy to pick out the people with very little real experience when this discussion comes up. They're the ones who think that you are going to know ahead of time when a scene is going to go south on you. That is so incredibly naive.

Do this: Ask everyone you can find who has been shot if they knew before they got to that scene that they were going to be shot. Let me know if you find any who say yes, and I've got a Ben Franklin for you. If they knew ahead of time that the scene was unsafe, they wouldn't have gotten shot.

The truth is, calls that are dispatched as having violent potential are the very last scenes that you have to worry about. It's all those that make you feel safe that will kill you. They are the ones that the police are not responding to, and that your guard is down for. So this nonsense about letting the police protect you is just stupid.

 

[ffemt8978]

Here was one of our more interesting debates on the subject.

http://www.emtlife.com/showthread.php?t=1465

 

[curt]

It's always so easy to pick out the people with very little real experience when this discussion comes up. They're the ones who think that you are going to know ahead of time when a scene is going to go south on you. That is so incredibly naive.

Do this: Ask everyone you can find who has been shot if they knew before they got to that scene that they were going to be shot. Let me know if you find any who say yes, and I've got a Ben Franklin for you. If they knew ahead of time that the scene was unsafe, they wouldn't have gotten shot.

The truth is, calls that are dispatched as having violent potential are the very last scenes that you have to worry about. It's all those that make you feel safe that will kill you. They are the ones that the police are not responding to, and that your guard is down for. So this nonsense about letting the police protect you is just stupid.

You're right, it's not easy, else nobody would get shot. Conversely, to think that being suspicious or trusting your gut and having law enforcement back-up's never saved anyone is also a pretty silly statement.

Look, I don't really want to get into it, I've been in similar debates a thousand times, and it's just beating a dead horse by this point. A TASER should be sufficient for almost any self-defense scenario we'd potentially come across. It also destroys the possibility of lethal crossfire or over-responding to a threat as well as protecting the health of an emergency-induced violent psych. That's my opinion on it, through and through.

 

[firecoins]

I know some paramedics that carry guns. But they are Sheriff Paramedics (do both Police & Medical)

I'm just waiting to hear from someone that doesn't allow a police officer board "their" ambulance without leaving their firearm behind...

theoretically, a cop is not supposed to have a gun on an ambulance in my area. It is feared that if he loses the gun in such a confined place, anyone in the back is dead. No one enforces this rule but it exists. Cops do carry their piece if they do come on board which is rare.

 

[Buzz]

I seem to recall someone giving me grief after telling a story about a run we pulled out of a nursing home. Turns out the lady, mid 80s, had broken a sign off the wall and carved a knife out of the plastic. My partner and I show up, talk to her just fine. We go to get a BP and out comes the shiv. The last thing you would have expected in that situation. We got it away from her just fine, but had we not been paying attention (or if she'd been more discreet getting it out of her sleeve) one of us would have likely been stabbed. It's definitely irritating when someone says "Well, you should have checked for scene safety and got out of there" as if they are implying that it would not happen to them--that they would have suspected it and been more cautious. That "It won't happen to me because..." sentiment is dangerous.

Now a firearm wouldn't have helped in that situation... nor would a tazer. We were too close and the weapon was out too fast. In reality, it's rarely the patients that make me feel uncomfortable--even the psychs. It's the bystanders and family members.

 

[medic417]

Let's use your normal argument.

No other medical professional carries a fire arm, why should we?

You're telling me that you will be able to pull out your gun and shoot faster than the person who already has a gun on you pulls the trigger? Don't you think that sudden unpredictable movement will scare the gunman into shooting when before all he was doing was threatning?

Actually I know many doctors and nurses that are armed.

Don't have to pull and shoot faster just shoot better. Plus if you do get to take cover you are able to pull your gun and be prepared if the shooter does try to go to an angle to try and shoot you as you will already be able to fire.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VUslGSoEH8I