EMT/Fire Fighters and gun control

[Sasha]

Actually very view people with guns can aim that well they just shoot at the biggest mass which is the chest area so no change. It's not like the old west movies where they shoot guns out of hands on purpose. They shoot where they are most likely to hit. Odds are you get shot in the arm that was not where they aimed but an accident.

And you, oh mighty armed EMS person, will be able to aim when someone who probably uses their gun more than you, can't?

 

[ffemt8978]

Wait, I forgot. Half of you guys are straight out of Gunsmoke, right?

I'm going to take this one to PM, because I don't want to give myself an infraction for my response.

I am going to say this for the rest of those reading this thread, though. Are there people who carry a weapon that have the "Gunsmoke" mentality, and are looking for a reason to use it? Yep, just like there are medics out there looking to give every drug in the box just because they can.

However, the great majority of people carrying concealed firearms legally are not of that mentality, just like the great majority of paramedics don't look to empty their drug box on every call. They make an effort to not get involved in situations like that because they understand the responsibility of carrying a weapon, and the consequences of using it...justified or not. These are people that have generally completed criminal background checks, been finger printed, have taken a firearms class, and in some states like mine, have to undergo a pyschological background check also. How many paramedics have to go through all of those? I'm sure some areas require it, but not all.

Curt, you bring up an interesting point but also miss a major aspect of it. When you are shooting in self defense, you are not shooting to kill. You are shooting to stop the threat - in other words to get the other guy to stop shooting at you. Even if you miss, you will interfere with his aim and make him take cover or rethink his actions. Those few seconds may be all you need to get the hell out of Dodge.

 

[RMSP05]

Or instead of thinking twice, when they might have shot to injure, they'll now shoot to kill!

People are usually less likely to shoot at someone that will shoot back. So instead of the person shooting, he may have thought twice and not shot at all. I wouldn't carry a gun while on duty even though i am a strong advocate for the second ammendment. However if it got to the point that i felt like my safety was in jepordy, i would start carrying. But i have received the same training and passed the same proficency test that all LEO's in Maine receive.

 

[Hockey]

Or instead of thinking twice, when they might have shot to injure, they'll now shoot to kill!

Nobody shoots to injure. Nobody shoots to kill (non-military)

You shoot to stop the threat

 

[RMSP05]

Nobody shoots to injure. Nobody shoots to kill (non-military)

You shoot to stop the threat

Exacly, everyone has the perception that if you shot the person in the leg they would stop and that would be enough. It is extremely had to hit someone there. That is why LEO's are trained to shoot for center mass, and if the person still comes at them, the escalate to shooting them in the head. No one wants to shoot that way, but they want to protect themselves and everyone else. The shooting tends to stop when the person is no longer a threat to anyone.

 

[281mustang]

I think that it should be an option available to EMS. Although I also think that there should be specialized EMS training that gets into self defense, psyche patients, ect. instead of just your run of the mill 2 hour CCW course.

 

[mycrofft]

Let's find out the facts...

Go to the Nat Labor Relations Board or somesuch and see how many EMS personnel are injured or killed by assailants annually.
I will bet you a nice shiney quarter that more EMS personnel are killed by firearms in domestic disputes, and maybe by other EMS personnel, off duty than are even credibly threatened on the job.
Next, find the lawsuits which may have arisen from those killed on the job and see how they turned out.
Finally, find somone who had to actually shoot another person and ask them about the repercussions even for a so called "good shoot"...PTSD, law suits from the decedent's family, maybe being fired to distance the company form the shooter. And the cost of keeping certified, plus range time, ammo, maintenance..and if someone steals your piece, it's a whole new world.

Maybe ok for people out in the far middle of nowhere, but in town, no.

 

[medic417]

And you, oh mighty armed EMS person, will be able to aim when someone who probably uses their gun more than you, can't?

I'm doing the same aim they are chest. Hopefully mine is more steady and I drop them. But if I have no gun and they come to finish me off I have no hope. So how does that feel almighty sitting dead duck person?

 

[Veneficus]

I'm doing the same aim they are chest. Hopefully mine is more steady and I drop them. But if I have no gun and they come to finish me off I have no hope. So how does that feel almighty sitting dead duck person?

So long as I can think and move, I am not a sitting duck. (besides, it hurts to get bit by a duck)

I know this has been a great debate about the "Doc" Holiday EMS agency, but just perhaps if you are that concerned over being in a situation you need a gun maybe it would be good to spend some time learning what to do when you don't have one?

So that in whatever place you find yourself you can live long enough to at least draw your weapon.

"He who fights and runs away lives to fight another day"

You may not have a "duty" to retreat, but unless you are looking to go down in a blaze of glory, it might not be a bad option to back out.

as my all time favorite philosopher said:

"Great warriors do not fight to win, they win and then fight"
-Sun Tzu

 

[medic417]

So long as I can think and move, I am not a sitting duck. (besides, it hurts to get bit by a duck)

I know this has been a great debate about the "Doc" Holiday EMS agency, but just perhaps if you are that concerned over being in a situation you need a gun maybe it would be good to spend some time learning what to do when you don't have one?

So that in whatever place you find yourself you can live long enough to at least draw your weapon.

"He who fights and runs away lives to fight another day"

You may not have a "duty" to retreat, but unless you are looking to go down in a blaze of glory, it might not be a bad option to back out.

as my all time favorite philosopher said:

"Great warriors do not fight to win, they win and then fight"
-Sun Tzu

You can not always run away. There may be no way out and my hands which are very good weapons along with my brain will not keep me alive when a bullet hits my brain. My Brain is what I used to find a place to hide in while I pull my gun. My brain is what allows me to despite pain and adrenalin to control my gun to shoot the bad guy if they do approach to finish me off. I am not advocating the OK corral stand up and shoot it out. I am advocating a gun as another means of defense when use of my hands will not be enough.

 

[Jon]

Wow... I'm impressed... Over 24 hours, Many pages of posts, and there's no lock yet Seriously... I didn't think it would last this long ... Good job. I'm sure there are lots of PM's flying, too.

Thanks, everyone, for keeping this a civil discussion.



Now, to clarify the point about "shooting to stop the threat" anyone with training should be doing that. The idea of anyone with training in lethal force attempting to use a firearm as anything other than lethal force is silly. Further... If I point a gun at someone, it is with the intent to shoot them. If I fire a gun at someone, it is with the intent to shoot someone. Just to clarify... Warning shots are a dumb idea... As are "shooting them in the arm or leg"

I have some firearm training, including the state's armed security cert... The trainjg is simple... Stop the threat. That usually means shooting "center mass" until the subject either drops the gun or is no longer able to threaten you with it.
Anyway... If a LEO wants to elaborate further on what their department policies are.

Jon

 

[MedicAngel]

I am going to 2nd Jon's sentiments, THANK YOU all for keeping it civil. And to the one who continues to be sarcasm, we get what your trying to say, we all would like to keep this civil so if you can't type something without being snarky, back away, go get an iced cappuccino and chill on the couch with some chick flick and feel good dvd.

I have a concealed carry permit, or ccp. I am licensed in the state of VA and I take carrying on my own time seriously. My husband is former military and he has taught me, aim center mass and take him down. He has also drilled two things into my head, carrying a weapon is an awesome responsibility and if you draw, you had best be prepared to kill and stop the threat. Once you shoot that bullet you can't get it back and you can't wish it away. With the world so sue happy, let me be an EMT with what I was taught and the skills I know, lord knows that in itself is a risk of being sued in and of itself.

 

[Hockey]

Wow... I'm impressed... Over 24 hours, Many pages of posts, and there's no lock yet Seriously... I didn't think it would last this long ... Good job. I'm sure there are lots of PM's flying, too.

Thanks, everyone, for keeping this a civil discussion.



Now, to clarify the point about "shooting to stop the threat" anyone with training should be doing that. The idea of anyone with training in lethal force attempting to use a firearm as anything other than lethal force is silly. Further... If I point a gun at someone, it is with the intent to shoot them. If I fire a gun at someone, it is with the intent to shoot someone. Just to clarify... Warning shots are a dumb idea... As are "shooting them in the arm or leg"

I have some firearm training, including the state's armed security cert... The trainjg is simple... Stop the threat. That usually means shooting "center mass" until the subject either drops the gun or is no longer able to threaten you with it.
Anyway... If a LEO wants to elaborate further on what their department policies are.

Jon

Not to be too picky, but of course I want to be, it shouldn't be just a gun. Its a knife, shank, anything.

Heck, even in Michigan, if I see someone getting sexually assaulted, that is enough for deadly force.

Police policies are all going to state to "stop the threat to persons" which can, yes, even mean to "stop" them from fleeing, if you know letting them go will cause someone elses life to be endangered.

But yes, I know what ya mean

 

[Ms.Medic]

So. Person pulls a gun. You try to run away and duck behing something while pulling out your gun, you've been shot. Let's say the arm. You still feel that you are going to be able to adequately shoot while injured?

So how are you gonna justify shooting down someone running at you with a knife?

Darn right,,,,if I get shot in the arm,,,Thats just going to piss me off to the point that with my other arm, bullet to the head...first shot.

On a lighter note, we are here to stabalize lives, not take them, but we always say "safety first". I see both sides of the "safety first" rule.

I have numerous weapons in my house, I carry a pistol every day (off duty), and it stays in my vehicle while Im on duty. Im very much into hunting, and shooting as a hobby, but seriously, how many times do we actually need one on an ambulance ? If it was bad enough to warrant one, we probably should not have taken that pt in the first place...
While we cant always know when someone will turn nuts on us on scene or in the back, we CAN ALWAYS take extra safety measures to ensure that we wouldnt need a weapon. How about having the patient searched before we transport, how about having the patient empty purses/pockets, how about having pd on scene with us every chance possible, etc, etc.
Im for not carrying a weapon while on "EMS duty": its been said for decades, "we risk our lives to save others", everyone knows theres risks involved, thats part of what we do. Us dealing with a psych pt. is like a firefighter going into an unstable structure fire. Thats just part of it.

For those that are scared to be on an ambulance without a firearm: there are sooo many closed quater combat courses/defense tactics to take, and I myself have taken 3 so far in the last 6 years, and I feel very confident that I can talk a situation down, and if worse comes to worse, handle my own should I get stuck in the middle of a sticky situation.

So, by no means am I anti weapon, but as far as on an ambulance where we carry children, elders,,,Ummm, NO

 

[Veneficus]

Darn right,,,,if I get shot in the arm,,,Thats just going to piss me off to the point that with my other arm, bullet to the head...first shot.

On a lighter note, we are here to stabalize lives, not take them, but we always say "safety first". I see both sides of the "safety first" rule.

I have numerous weapons in my house, I carry a pistol every day (off duty), and it stays in my vehicle while Im on duty. Im very much into hunting, and shooting as a hobby, but seriously, how many times do we actually need one on an ambulance ? If it was bad enough to warrant one, we probably should not have taken that pt in the first place...
While we cant always know when someone will turn nuts on us on scene or in the back, we CAN ALWAYS take extra safety measures to ensure that we wouldnt need a weapon. How about having the patient searched before we transport, how about having the patient empty purses/pockets, how about having pd on scene with us every chance possible, etc, etc.
Im for not carrying a weapon while on "EMS duty": its been said for decades, "we risk our lives to save others", everyone knows theres risks involved, thats part of what we do. Us dealing with a psych pt. is like a firefighter going into an unstable structure fire. Thats just part of it.

For those that are scared to be on an ambulance without a firearm: there are sooo many closed quater combat courses/defense tactics to take, and I myself have taken 3 so far in the last 6 years, and I feel very confident that I can talk a situation down, and if worse comes to worse, handle my own should I get stuck in the middle of a sticky situation.

So, by no means am I anti weapon, but as far as on an ambulance where we carry children, elders,,,Ummm, NO

It is nice to see there are some reasonable attitudes when it comes to the value of carrying a firearm on a truck.

 

[medic417]

While we cant always know when someone will turn nuts on us on scene or in the back, we CAN ALWAYS take extra safety measures to ensure that we wouldn't need a weapon. How about having the patient searched before we transport, how about having the patient empty purses/pockets, how about having pd on scene with us every chance possible, etc, etc.

No scene is ever safe. If they will not properly fund EMS how can we expect them to send a cop on every call? Searching every patient will definitely have patients thinking we are cops.

A concealed gun would not be seen. No one would know it was there. You would in the back of the ambulance probably just beat the patient with whatever is handy as you are to close. But you are in a large room in the back of the house to check the difficulty breathing patient. You find she is having difficulty breathing because husband beat heck out of her. As you realize this the husband raises a gun fires. You fall out of his line of sight. He is walking toward you. With no gun you are dead. With a gun you just might live. Point is you had no reason to think scene was unsafe, but it was.

 

[Sasha]

And to the one who continues to be sarcasm, we get what your trying to say, we all would like to keep this civil so if you can't type something without being snarky, back away, go get an iced cappuccino and chill on the couch with some chick flick and feel good dvd.

Thanks, mod in training! I'll be sure to get RIGHT on that!

Im for not carrying a weapon while on "EMS duty": its been said for decades, "we risk our lives to save others", everyone knows theres risks involved, thats part of what we do.

Shock! Something we actually agree on!

If they will not properly fund EMS how can we expect them to send a cop on every call?

Do you think they'll be able to get the funding to provide every EMS personnel with guns? If not, you are doing your coworkers a disservice. No one will know who has a gun and who doesn't, possibly opening up your coworkers to attack.

Point is you had no reason to think scene was unsafe, but it was.

ALL scenes are persumed dangerous.

 

[kymtgpro]

I am by all means pro-gun. I own handguns, High power (sniper rifles), shotguns, and archery equipment. I go to the firing range often, and believe that anyone that wants to obtain a concealed weapon should jump through the necessary hoops to do so. The more good guys that are armed, the more the bad guys have to worry about... just my opinion.

That being said, I dont see the need for armed EMS personnel. It just signals to the criminal that they have one more armed obstacle to take care of. I do carry a pocket knife, and am not strictly opposed to having a secured pistol in the cab. But that wouldn't be much use in most scenarios.

Im also not very fond of EMT's wearing uniforms that can be mistaken for police uniforms. I dont need slacks with a stripe down the seam or a badge. It is entirely possible to look professional without mimicking police issues.

 

[medic417]

Do you think they'll be able to get the funding to provide every EMS personnel with guns? If not, you are doing your coworkers a disservice. No one will know who has a gun and who doesn't, possibly opening up your coworkers to attack.

We are not talking having the service arm people. We are talking having the option to carry concealed for those that want to. Actually people might think twice about trying to attack us because they do not know which amoung us may be armed. It works both ways. It would stop in my opinion more attacks than it would encourage.

And as I've said before best policy for a service is no policy on concealed weapons so they limit their risk and the public is not notified that we are armed or that we can not be armed which would in my opinion lead to more people seeing us as easy targets.

 

[medic417]

Im also not very fond of EMT's wearing uniforms that can be mistaken for police uniforms. I dont need slacks with a stripe down the seam or a badge. It is entirely possible to look professional without mimicking police issues.

I agree I do not want to look like a cop or a firefighter. We are PreHospital Medical Professionals and should dress as such.