EMT/Fire Fighters and gun control

THIS. I don't see any problem with having some non-lethal protection available to EMS but I don't think having a gun is the right thing to do.

And non-lethal weapons don't work on 100% of the people. Tazer, OC, stun gun, baton, etc...all have failed to disable the person they were used on.

And so can pulling out a gun.
And a pulling out a gun can save a life, or several lives. It is a situation that is too dynamic, and situation dependent to make blanket statements. But let me ask you this question in a hypothetical situation.

Your patient suddenly, and obviously, has decided to kill you for whatever reason. This patient has the means, the intent, and the ability to do so. Would you rather be judged by twelve, or carried by six?
 
THIS. I don't see any problem with having some non-lethal protection available to EMS but I don't think having a gun is the right thing to do.

There is no such thing as non-lethal. Less-then-lethal, but it still has the potential to be lethal.
 
Wow. Hot-button issues - Veneficus already listed my arguments... I've had this debate before.

Funny thing is that I was at EMS Today - THIS MORNING. The closing keynote was from Steve Berry.

He discussed that EMS is a cross between Public Safety and Public Health/Medicine - We do both. And we need to embrace both fields.

He actually discussed that in an ideal EMS system, we WOULD have some cross-training and familiarity with law enforcement and their equipment, and he acknowledged that terrorism isn't going to go away.... and that there are times when taking a life is necessary to save lives.
 
I have a tough time convincing patients with legal issues I am not a cop without being armed. A gun won't help
 
And sometimes, that type of action can get you killed. You don't always have the time to run away.

http://www.emtlife.com/showthread.php?t=11109

We need to be trained to get out of scenes way earlier instead of trying to make a stand. Having a gun goes against that completely.

Either way, it has to be very concealed. Having your health care provider come up to you with a gun is a horrible idea. With a concealed weapon it will take you longer to pull it, aim, and shoot. It really isn't reasonable in our line of work. I can run out of a house faster than that.
 
While I haven't made my mind up one way or the other (carrying on a call makes me uneasy, but I am also an NRA member...) I do wonder how much time the people who are saying that "taking a gun out, aiming, and shooting will take too long to do any good" think that taking a tazer out, aiming, and shooting it takes?
 
While I haven't made my mind up one way or the other (carrying on a call makes me uneasy, but I am also an NRA member...) I do wonder how much time the people who are saying that "taking a gun out, aiming, and shooting will take too long to do any good" think that taking a tazer out, aiming, and shooting it takes?


Good point but you don't have to conceal a tazer. It could be right there on your belt. Just make sure the ones carried are the bright yellow kind so people know it's a tazer.
 
We need to be trained to get out of scenes way earlier instead of trying to make a stand. Having a gun goes against that completely.

Either way, it has to be very concealed. Having your health care provider come up to you with a gun is a horrible idea. With a concealed weapon it will take you longer to pull it, aim, and shoot. It really isn't reasonable in our line of work. I can run out of a house faster than that.

I can bet, that I can pull an ankle holstered pistol,aim, and kill, faster then you can take two steps for the door!

I have no problem with carrying in EMS. I have a problem with the hundred of idiots employed in EMS, being trusted with it!

If we had training for it and psych testing done, then it may be ok!
 
I have a tough time convincing patients with legal issues I am not a cop without being armed. A gun won't help

Concealed, concealed, concealed, concealed, concealed, concealed. No one will ever know you have a gun.
 
Concealed, concealed, concealed, concealed, concealed, concealed. No one will ever know you have a gun.

Say one EMT or Medic in your area pulls a gun while on duty. People talk, word spreads, and now people assume EVERY EMT/Medic from soandso ambulance service, or maybe even in general, are packin' heat.
 
Then they would think twice about attacking you!
 
Then they would think twice about attacking you!

or snipe you at 200 yards

or open automatic fire as you are driving down the street because you threatend their "boy"

or call 911 and send you to an ambush

I think you put too much faith in the power of a fire arm
 
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Or they might drop am atomic bomb on you while you are eating lunch!

Maybe melt your brain with a laser, from space!

Come on, you could "maybe" and "what if" to death.

Research the stats in this country. Every state that has CCP for citizens, have seen a decrease in crime rates!

I do not see it in EMS any time soon. As I stated earlier, We have to many idiots working in EMS to make the right decisions!

If this was something that was needed more often,then they would have to be trained the same as LEO.
 
Or they might drop am atomic bomb on you while you are eating lunch!

Maybe melt your brain with a laser, from space!

Come on, you could "maybe" and "what if" to death.

Research the stats in this country. Every state that has CCP for citizens, have seen a decrease in crime rates!

I do not see it in EMS any time soon. As I stated earlier, We have to many idiots working in EMS to make the right decisions!

If this was something that was needed more often,then they would have to be trained the same as LEO.

people in EMS have been sniped, have been dialed into an ambush, and have been shot at while driving through town, or misidentified as Police. Even when performing patient care.

Is there an article anywhere where an EMS provider benefited from having a firearm outside of Israel or the military? I have asked DT and hope he has time to reply.

There is a difference between a private citizen with fire arms and a decreasing crime rate and an increase of violence towards EMS professions who are even perceived as armed.

Once somebody sees you draw a weapon, it could be a squirt gun, it will give the perception every EMS provider may be armed and has a real potential to increase violence. My "what if's" are based on things that have actually happened.

In one of the places I have worked, even if you rightfully shot somebody, you'd be lucky to make it off the block without a running gun battle.

If you think carrying a concealed bazooka helps, then go for it. But as you can see, many of us doubt having it will help as much as you think it will. Hopefully you will never have to find out first hand as it will cut down on the smart people I can have a decent arguement with here.
 
Say one EMT or Medic in your area pulls a gun while on duty. People talk, word spreads, and now people assume EVERY EMT/Medic from soandso ambulance service, or maybe even in general, are packin' heat.

You mean like is already happening? People are already trying to snipe responding ambulances.

http://www.emtlife.com/showthread.php?t=8468
http://www.emtlife.com/showthread.php?t=8516
http://www.emtlife.com/showthread.php?t=8444
http://www.emtlife.com/showthread.php?t=7808
http://www.emtlife.com/showthread.php?t=1453
http://www.emtlife.com/showthread.php?t=1559
http://www.emtlife.com/showthread.php?t=3171
 

And you want to give them even more of a reason to? I don't think you're going to be able to counter a "snipe".

Wait, I forgot. Half of you guys are straight out of Gunsmoke, right?
 
People on both sides of this issues are heavily guilty of "what if"s, there's no denying it. There's no possible way you could be prepared for every what if, especially not without sacrificing patient care to some degree. A gun isn't always the answer, especially if you have to shoot fast. Contrary to popular belief, most people can't hollywood a shot and take someone out the moment they draw the gun and with one bullet- people, the persistant fools, tend to die a little on the slow side when compared to hollywood deaths. Of course, all of us know that. Now, don't bother saying "but the aorta, but this vital organ, that vital organ, headshot, etc," because, like you, I know a bullet can kill you near instantly, but unless you've got some wild skills, you're not going to be able to nail a relatively small target like that at distance in a real scrap on purpose. I'm not knocking your skills, reader, I'm just saying.

Back on track, though, firearms in thickly urban environments present a problem nobody's considered here: bullets sometimes don't stop when they hit, and they certainly don't stop when they miss. We've all heard of real cases were innocent non-combatants were hit or even killed by a stray bullet. Guns are sloppy weapons, lacking in control, unless you're extremely precise in your method. You're massively more likely to accidentally shoot someone than you are to accidentally tase them (especially given that you have to hold the trigger down to keep the current flowing) or accidentally stab them. Let's be real here, when the fur's flying and so are the bullets, you're not going to be entirely too worried about missing- you're going to be focusing on destroying the threat before the threat destroys you, and you're going to miss unless they go out in a t-shirt made to look like a bullseye and stand perfectly still in the wide open for you while giving you plenty of time to get your aim dead perfect. Even if you do hit, that may not be the end of it. You might have to hit them multiple times to put an end to the threat.

Supposing you stop the threat, we also need to consider the ethics here. Do we turn right around and treat the man who just tried to kill us? Can we really go beyond ourselves to provide the same level of care we would to anyone else? How will this work with the job that Law Enforcement would have to do, which would invariably involve us in an investigation? How would our employers, our colleagues, and the public we serve respond?

A while back, well before this thread, I made a poll on another forum, asking whether or not people, uninvolved in EMS, would feel comfortable if we carried tasers after I explained why we might need to carry them. 90% of those who responded felt that it was largely unnecessary and that they found the thought of such a thing to be uncomfortable. To be honest with myself, I don't think I'd feel any more safe if I carried a firearm on duty.

Now, for most of the scenarios I can think of where we'd have a close encounter with a violent patient, a TASER would work wonderfully. It's safer, there's less complications, less tarnishing of the EMS name or social acceptance, and it works, else the LEOs wouldn't carry them. Sure, the barbs might not connect, and your gun might jam OR my partner might use his or her TASER when they see mine failed. The guy might be so jumped up on crack that the taser might only slow him down at best, but if it's the case that an electric discharge barely changes his muscle function, what makes you think he'll care about or get slowed down by getting shot?
 
And you want to give them even more of a reason to? I don't think you're going to be able to counter a "snipe".

Wait, I forgot. Half of you guys are straight out of Gunsmoke, right?

So we are getting shot with no guns. Have you ever thought hey maybe there would be second thoughts on attacking EMS if they thought we might just shoot back? The idiots that will shoot us armed would shoot us unarmed, the difference is if we survive the initial attack we have a chance of stopping them when they come in to finish us.
 
So we are getting shot with no guns. Have you ever thought hey maybe there would be second thoughts on attacking EMS if they thought we might just shoot back? The idiots that will shoot us armed would shoot us unarmed, the difference is if we survive the initial attack we have a chance of stopping them when they come in to finish us.

Or instead of thinking twice, when they might have shot to injure, they'll now shoot to kill!
 
Or instead of thinking twice, when they might have shot to injure, they'll now shoot to kill!

Actually very view people with guns can aim that well they just shoot at the biggest mass which is the chest area so no change. It's not like the old west movies where they shoot guns out of hands on purpose. They shoot where they are most likely to hit. Odds are you get shot in the arm that was not where they aimed but an accident.
 
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