Shishkabob
Forum Chief
- 8,264
- 32
- 48
That's it? That equates to like... 48 hours. For EMT?
EMT Boot Camp Starts Monday
- Thread starter trevor1189
- Start date
That's it? That equates to like... 48 hours. For EMT?
DHarris52
Forum Probie
- 23
- 0
- 0
You guys are looking at this entirely the wrong way.
It takes 120 hours to obtain your EMT certification. 120 hours is 120 hours whether it is completed in 6 months or 2 weeks. Personally, it took me 6 months. If someone can successfully do it in 2 weeks, more power to them. Their card will be just as valid as anyone elses.
Besides, the class isn't even the half of it. Your true EMT skills are acquired only by riding a rig and gaining real life hands-on experience.
Hopefully, he will have a good experienced mentor on his squad that will take him under their wing.
It takes 120 hours to obtain your EMT certification. 120 hours is 120 hours whether it is completed in 6 months or 2 weeks. Personally, it took me 6 months. If someone can successfully do it in 2 weeks, more power to them. Their card will be just as valid as anyone elses.
Besides, the class isn't even the half of it. Your true EMT skills are acquired only by riding a rig and gaining real life hands-on experience.
Hopefully, he will have a good experienced mentor on his squad that will take him under their wing.
Last edited by a moderator:
HotelCo
Forum Deputy Chief
- 2,198
- 4
- 38
And having a card automatically means that you're a competent EMT?
DHarris52
Forum Probie
- 23
- 0
- 0
...as far as the state/NR is concerned.
HotelCo
Forum Deputy Chief
- 2,198
- 4
- 38
Some people are great test-takers, they can sit down for the NR and pass. That DOES NOT mean that they are competent enough to treat a patient.
I do agree that 120 hours is not much and for some it doesn't matter how long it takes to get it. It is also deceiving to say an EMT program is 9 months long when it is only 3 hours a week.
Since there are no prerequisites to the EMT program, it is questionable as to how well some will understand the material without extra study time.
The clinical and ride time is also often too short to be of much use to prepare the EMT student for the real world. Ride time could be a hit or a total miss since many programs do not have a required number of patient contacts. The entire 10 hours could be done in front of a TV or sleeping. There is also very little guarantee that the EMT will have a good mentor or will make use of the time they do spend with each patient especially since many will be BLS IFT. The mentality for IFT is one that if it doesn't bleed or is a "trauma" there is little need to assess any further than the patient information sheet for billing info and a diagnosis. There may also be little chance in some areas that EMTs will get the opportunity to do 911 calls.
However, these 2 week crash courses are an excellent way for those in other medical professions to get an EMT card to meet the requirements for some out of hospital transport job description or before challenging the Paramedic exam.
Shishkabob
Forum Chief
- 8,264
- 32
- 48
Basics are invaluable for what they do.
Having said that, the education is WOEFULLY inadequate.
Not necessarily a fault of the EMT, but of the NREMT, NHTSA, and others that DO have control over that.
In my world, clinicals will be a 1:1 ratio with diadetic hours, at mininum, for basic. I nearly doubled my EMT class just by the amount of hours I chose to do extra. Then again, you get out what you put in, and those who don't work to do extra get the grade they get.
Having said that, the education is WOEFULLY inadequate.
Not necessarily a fault of the EMT, but of the NREMT, NHTSA, and others that DO have control over that.
In my world, clinicals will be a 1:1 ratio with diadetic hours, at mininum, for basic. I nearly doubled my EMT class just by the amount of hours I chose to do extra. Then again, you get out what you put in, and those who don't work to do extra get the grade they get.
DHarris52
Forum Probie
- 23
- 0
- 0
Your card is a written endorsement that your skills are sufficient enough to practice as an EMT.
Most EMT classes lose about 50% of the students along the course of the class. Do a few dingbats slip through the cracks? Sure, there's some bad apples, as with anything else in the world. But for the most part, the class itself does a pretty good job of "natural selection".
So, what is your definition of competent and what credentials do you posess in order to deem someone competent? I'm not trying to break balls, but do you see where this becomes a huge gray area?
The accelerated 2 week program isn't for everyone. But that doesn't mean that the graduates of that program should be looked down upon by fellow EMTs.
The fact still remains that their card will be as good as yours or mine - right, wrong, or indifferent.
Last edited by a moderator:
HotelCo
Forum Deputy Chief
- 2,198
- 4
- 38
That card just means that you passed some tests. I'm great at taking tests. I once forgot to read a chapter for medic class, went to class and took the quiz on it, got an 85%. On something I NEVER READ. (I did go back and read it a few times after, don't worry) The point I'm trying to make is that a card just means you passed a test, it says nothing about your competence as an EMT.
Last edited by a moderator:
EMTinNEPA
Guess who's back...
- 894
- 2
- 16
A two week course doesn't allow for the study time and practice time in between classes that, for instance, a six month course would provide.
As for what's missing from current EMT courses that should be included, how about...
- EVOC
- ACLS for EMT-Bs (or some sort of paramedic assistant training)
- A&P
- Pharmacology
- Exercises to promote Critical Thinking
- MICU and hospital clinicals
- Communications training (how to communicate with doctors, nurses, other public safety professionals, patients, patient's families)
- What to do on DOAs
- Scenarios besides MVAs, fall victims, chest pain, SOB, CVA, poisoning, abdominal pain, allergic reaction, choking, and cardiac arrest
To name just a few in my sleep deprived state of mind... these are all things that, in hindsight, would have served me greatly if they had been a part of my EMT course. EMTs should walk out of that course ready to be paired up with a paramedic on a Mobile Intensive Care Unit.
As for what's missing from current EMT courses that should be included, how about...
- EVOC
- ACLS for EMT-Bs (or some sort of paramedic assistant training)
- A&P
- Pharmacology
- Exercises to promote Critical Thinking
- MICU and hospital clinicals
- Communications training (how to communicate with doctors, nurses, other public safety professionals, patients, patient's families)
- What to do on DOAs
- Scenarios besides MVAs, fall victims, chest pain, SOB, CVA, poisoning, abdominal pain, allergic reaction, choking, and cardiac arrest
To name just a few in my sleep deprived state of mind... these are all things that, in hindsight, would have served me greatly if they had been a part of my EMT course. EMTs should walk out of that course ready to be paired up with a paramedic on a Mobile Intensive Care Unit.
MGary
Forum Probie
- 20
- 0
- 0
Yeah. Jan 22- May 17, Tuesday nights, 1800-2130.
Total of I think 8 Saturday "Labs" (I'll check the schedule later to make sure, It's literally 0-dark-hundred right now), 8 hours each.
I know it met the 120 hours minumum, but just barely. If we missed a single class or lab we were out.
1 10 hour mandatory hospital rotation (The unit was not dispatched ONCE on my entire 10 hour shift)
And that's it. Ride-Alongs were completely optional.
This is why I did Ride-Alongs every chance I got. They didn't give us our provisional licenses until half-way through the course, but after that I was on every weekend and every chance I had. I did a total of somewhere in the 15-20 range of ride-alongs in a two-month period. Some 8 hour shifts, some 12 hour shifts, some around 16 hours. 8 was my shortest.
I had 2 Medics, two Intermediate/EMS RNs (Flight Nurses) and about 6 Intermediates show me the ropes and their little tricks on these numerous ride-alongs. They showed me everything from spiking IV bags to hooking up a 5 lead EKG so that on major calls they could worry about doing the advanced stuff (actual needle part of IVs, Intubation, meds) and know that the basic things were being taken care of.
In all honesty, I have mixed feelings on my Basic course. Did it teach me everything I needed to know for the field? Not even close. What it did do is give me a firm foundation upon which I could learn more from numerous teachers and not get stuck in the habits of a single instructor.
daedalus
Forum Deputy Chief
- 1,784
- 1
- 0
If anyone (a mentor, a teacher, a friend, family) ever tells you to take a two week EMT course, they are belittling you and wronging you. If someone tells you that being an EMT is a professional career move, they are wronging you. If you think hat being an EMT is really much of an accomplishment, you are wronging yourself.
Think about it. Every time anyone argues that EMTs are competent to provide patient care, that EMT is a career, or that being an EMT is equivalent to a healthcare professional, they are calling themselves dummies.
Why would anyone say that a 120 hour course is all that you can accomplish? Is that all you can be? A 120 hour course that you must constantly defend?
Do not wrong yourself.
Think about it. Every time anyone argues that EMTs are competent to provide patient care, that EMT is a career, or that being an EMT is equivalent to a healthcare professional, they are calling themselves dummies.
Why would anyone say that a 120 hour course is all that you can accomplish? Is that all you can be? A 120 hour course that you must constantly defend?
Do not wrong yourself.
Ridryder911
EMS Guru
- 5,923
- 40
- 48
Spoken just like someone that does not understand education or competency.
Sorry, it is NOT the hours as much as it is the delivery, the methodology that allows the student to retain and to exercise to become proficient before they are allowed on the streets. Working on a REAL patient is not the time to make mistakes and learn. It should be done while in a classroom and clinical setting with preceptor observation monitoring them.
The NREMT only describes that when one passes that they have met the minimal standard allowed per written and practical test. By far, they will admit the current Basic is a far cry from what is needed. Let's not play the old...."Well, they passed the same test" B.S. Sure, the main emphasis was placed upon how to do such.
Let me ask you this. Would you rather have a Surgeon that spent 4 years Medical School and 7 years in surgical residency operate on your child or one that spent 4 1/2; but passed the same boards and license test.... all the same.... right?
Too extreme? How much do you really think adult learners absorb by cramming? Is it really worth maybe even missing just one part?
How many times, did those students actually perform assessments, practice with traction splints (all various types), run scenarios developing critical thinking skills and leadership? You want them to learn this on you?
Sorry, Cracker Jack programs produces Cracker Jack medics. Let's quit making excuses for laziness and the lack of ability to do something right. One of my goals is to see if we can start enforcing ways to shut these mills down.
R/r 911
DHarris52
Forum Probie
- 23
- 0
- 0
I'll ask again. How do you define competent? Who can deem someone competent and what credentials must they posess in order to do so?
Apples to oranges.
Just because you and I can't do it doesn't mean everyone else can't.
120 hours is 120 hours whether we're talking about a 6 month class or a 2 week class.
You are vastly overestimating the amount of out-of-classroom studying that students actually do over the course of the 6 month class. For the most part (at least in my neck of the woods), people are taking the EMT class as vollys and it is being completed simultaneously with college, work, volunteer time etc etc. There are only so many hours in a day.
Yet again and again on the EMS forums some are given advice to do the Excelsior program for nursing which bypasses over 1200 hours of clinicals. The same goes for some of the less than adequate bridge programs. Some in EMS has come to expect shortcuts. Most of this could be because education is not stressed and that includes the requirements of the instructors teaching EMS classes. The emphasis has been on training. Thus, few have anything to compare what a well structured program that has a good blend of education to go with the training can offer a student. They also have very few educated educators leading the classes to get a good impression of the importance of education. Instead, the instructor who has the coolest stories to tell to fill up the time he/she doesn't know how to explain basic A&P, which is perceived as the boring nonessential stuff, gets nominated as the best instructor.
Well, I have some feedback on this issue as well. I'm currently shopping around for a good EMT-B class, what I'm finding is that ALL of them are only 120 hours. Even those offered at the college. The only difference I'm finding is how far they space those hours out. There's a private school near me that does it every other weekend for 18 hours per week, and a community college that does it twice a week for 7 hours per week.
I fail to see any significant advantage to spacing out the class times longer than neccessary. Even if the issue becomes about study time can't someone just buy the book early and start reading? take A&P, Medical Term, etc..
Maybe I'm missing something. However it seems that if someone is capable of taking a full time college load and succeding( multiple classes a day for 5 days a week) then they could do the same with one class 5 days a week.
I fail to see any significant advantage to spacing out the class times longer than neccessary. Even if the issue becomes about study time can't someone just buy the book early and start reading? take A&P, Medical Term, etc..
Maybe I'm missing something. However it seems that if someone is capable of taking a full time college load and succeding( multiple classes a day for 5 days a week) then they could do the same with one class 5 days a week.
Good thought.
However, when a student takes a short term college class that does run 5 days a week and usually for only 3 - 4 hours per day, they are advised NOT to take a full semester load in terms of credit hours. Each credit hour taken may require 1 - 3 hours of outside study time and preparation for the next class. The "hours of training" for tech school programs do not always address this since the emphasis is on training or skills. This is another reason why EMS should get away from the trade school concept and model their programs toward an education model.
djmedic913
Forum Lieutenant
- 204
- 0
- 16
This is not a requirement or even the responsibility of Basic. Since the basic can not preform any of these skills, or even true training on ALS skills. If a Basic spikes the wrong bag or an expired bag, it is not the responsibility of that Basic. An I/P needs to verify everything they do. When I was a Basic, I chose to learn ALS assist because it made me feel a bit more useful, instead of sitting in the driver's seat and waiting for the ok to go.
Your comparison about a surgeon with an EMT is not a valid comparison. I agree a 2 week course is not geared properly for retention. But you compared a Surgeon with 4 years education and residency with a Surgeon who had 4 1/2 yrs education only....the difference was the residency.
As you said your card says you have the minimum knowledge required by the state/NR to practice at your level. But residency is necessary. This is where responsibility falls upon the employer of the new EMT-B/I/P to assign them an FTO and encourage them. this is where we all take book knowledge we learned and apply and gain experience. Under supervision as is with the MD in residency. NO...let me repeat NO person new to a level should be allowed to tech alone after immediately getting their new level card. They need supervision and someone to evaluate whether they are merely a good test taker or someone who can truly apply what they have learned.
As someone said...Basics are quite important.
An EMT-B is important just as CNAs are important. However, 120 hours of training in a few skills with a very limited knowledge base, one should not assume the EMT-B is prepared to fully assess or evaluate a patient. Thus, part of their training should be knowing their limitations. Some still confuse knowing how to do a couple of "skills" that a Paramedic might do, like spiking an IV bag or putting together a laryngoscope, makes them "ALS".
daedalus
Forum Deputy Chief
- 1,784
- 1
- 0
Yes. That is why there are Medic to MD threads, because once in EMS, shortcuts are expected. I completely agree.