EMT-B/BLS care is there a point??

[daedalus]

First I do know what is required. It is a 120 hr course and about 16hrs clinical time. My instructor was a NAZI so we had to do much more.




Second I'm sorry my fingers move faster than I think. I'm not perfect and I'm so glad you are. Please oh great master teach me to be perfect! And also I am new here so I'm still figureing out all the controls so the "spell check button" wasn't first priority on my list to find.

Fingers move faster than you think? Its not a good "quality" to have while providing medical care. In fact, it worries me. Jfd347, you may want to be careful insulting Rid/ryder. Your entire EMT program was probably the same amount of time Rid spent learning the histology of a blood vessel.

 

[jfd347]

Fingers move faster than you think? Its not a good "quality" to have while providing medical care. In fact, it worries me. Jfd347, you may want to be careful insulting Rid/ryder. Your entire EMT program was probably the same amount of time Rid spent learning the histology of a blood vessel.

I only have that problem typing. Providing pt care I do fine.

As far as "insulting" rr... I don't really care. I don't care how much he knows. He doesn't have to treat emt's like that.

 

[Littlebit]

Time to hop in again....
There are some highly educated trained individuals on this forum that I would be very relieved to see arrive if I were in need of ALS care, however, if I were a brand new EMT-B they would be the last person I would want to see - cause talk about bursting a bubble.
This may be redundant but where I am from if it weren't for the volunteer EMT-B's we would not have anything.
When I was an EMT-B I would ask questions of the ER staff if I felt I needed to understand more, I would look it up, and I read any and all articles related to EMS. I"m sure others do the same. In any profession learning more than is required is an asset.
It's such a shame that some peoples arrogance comes before knowledge and causes other to percieve them that way. In some of the posts I'm reading it seems that because a person stops at EMT-B they shouldn't be proud of what they have accomplished.
On the squad I"m on we have 2 paramedics and the rest are EMT-B's and if the paramedics told the EMT-B's that they could do what a layperson can do I doubt if there would be any B's left.

 

[Vizior]

I only have that problem typing. Providing pt care I do fine.

As far as "insulting" rr... I don't really care. I don't care how much he knows. He doesn't have to treat emt's like that.

He's not treating emt's badly, he's insulting you because you came on here with an arrogant attitude and proved that you don't have any clue what you're talking about. You just spewed the same argument as other emt's in triplicate.

You're still not answering my question: WHY, other than MONEY should we have EMT-Bs(and no paramedics) on a 9-1-1 ambulance?

Let me guess... you cancel an ALS interface a lot, don't you? Because you're too busy stroking your own stupid ego as opposed to worrying about patient care. You've already proved it here:

"Yes on a scene you are better than me BUT with out a basic you wouldn't get to the scene. Ever medic I have worked doesn't know jack about where things are. Medics without basics are lost."

I'm STILL scratching my head at how you can POSSIBLY think that EMT-Bs have some kind of super awesome driving/navigating skills that make them irreplaceable on an ambulance.


Guess what... you're whole argument is the same thing: I already got one certification, there's no reason for me to learn anything else, what I do is good enough as it is. If you think you're patients deserve the best care, go and get your paramedic. If you can't afford it, get student loans. If you're system is all volunteer BLS, work to change the system.

 

[jfd347]

He's not treating emt's badly, he's insulting you because you came on here with an arrogant attitude and proved that you don't have any clue what you're talking about. You just spewed the same argument as other emt's in triplicate.

You're still not answering my question: WHY, other than MONEY should we have EMT-Bs(and no paramedics) on a 9-1-1 ambulance?

Let me guess... you cancel an ALS interface a lot, don't you? Because you're too busy stroking your own stupid ego as opposed to worrying about patient care. You've already proved it here:


I'm STILL scratching my head at how you can POSSIBLY think that EMT-Bs have some kind of super awesome driving/navigating skills that make them irreplaceable on an ambulance.


Guess what... you're whole argument is the same thing: I already got one certification, there's no reason for me to learn anything else, what I do is good enough as it is. If you think you're patients deserve the best care, go and get your paramedic. If you can't afford it, get student loans. If you're system is all volunteer BLS, work to change the system.

I never said there should not be medics. I worked for a company that regularly sends bls trucks on 911 calls. If I have a medic enroute already I never cancel. Sure I'll take the extra opinion on what's going on. I only cancel if it is an obvious BS run. Yes I came on arrogant and I have that flaw unfortunatly. I never said that we have super awsome skills but alot of medics have no clue how to get anywhere because all they do is ride shotgun. they never drive. Yes that was arrogant to say. You are right. I have one cert. I honestly don't want another. call it what you will but I have no real desire to be a medic.

 

[ffemt8978]

I only have that problem typing. Providing pt care I do fine.

As far as "insulting" rr... I don't really care. I don't care how much he knows. He doesn't have to treat emt's like that.

Then maybe you need to go back and read the first rule of this forum.

He's not treating EMT's bad...he's trying to question how much they really bring to the table in EMS. If you can't handle that, then maybe you're in the wrong field.

All of the Community Leaders have watched this thread with interest (you can tell because we haven't really posted in it) and we've had several discussions amongst ourselves about it. We decided to let this one run it's course despite repeated requests to close this thread and requests to issue infractions to another member because somebody didn't like what was posted.

But since people have decided to not be polite in this discussion, this thread is now closed.

 

[Jon]

Let's try this again. The thread was closed for 24 hours as a "cooling off" period. Everyone has calmed down a little, I hope.

We all have strong opinions... and I enjoy discussions like this. We need to remember to be courteous and kind at all times, even if we are having an argument. Remember... he who loses his temper first, loses the argument.

Jon

 

[LE-EMT]

I don't know that reopening this thread was the best of decisions. I mean I have had my run in/s with the administration of this here web site and I will be the first to say that i don't always agree with decisions made buttttttttttt I do abide by them and I believe they are for the best of the site. this thread has been way off topic for some time. the only reason why I didn't mind is because well I enjoy a good heated debate. But as I just stated a good heated debate NOT arguing about crap that isn't even the topic at hand. This thread was taken out of context and beaten to death and then beaten again. there is no need to reopen this thread. So that we can argue about what it is that EMT-B's do.


I propose we move on, hug, kiss, and sing coombyia while roasting smores.

 

[daedalus]

A thread closure cannot be undone. This thread is dead.

 

[Ridryder911]

..."alot of medics have no clue how to get anywhere because all they do is ride shotgun. they never drive." ....

I know of some services the Paramedic is not allowed to drive, that is what they have a 'driver" or EVO for. Seriously, anyone really can drive if they are safe and can read a map book or now as many have GPS units.

I honestly don't want another. call it what you will but I have no real desire to be a medic.

That is your personal business, but do not come across condemning upper level positions. Personally, I would not know why anyone would be in a healthcare business and not want to deliver more patient care? Why one would not want to advance and be able to perform and the best patient care possible. But, again that is a personal choice.. yet, should we not be promoting one should advance upwards in the profession?

Again, everyone has the personal choice to advance in this profession and of course with that increases the responsibility. Certification levels is irrelevant, as in some states there is no such thing as certifications. As well, many EMS is now only allowing some to be an EMT for an X amount of time. Even at mine, one has to advance up within two years to maintain their position. Something, I have mixed feelings upon. I don't know if forcing someone is going to deliver the best person, and as well many become complacent with being a "driver" with little responsibility. Then there are those that should NEVER be a Paramedic or never could be able to fully understand the material other in a cookbook form, wanting to only deliver care in a recipe format. Knowing patients one really is aware that patients never fit a recipe.

So now I will start a new thread.. regarding advancing your career.

R/r 911

 

[mark111]

I believe that Basics are need , hell that how we all started out . iv beeen a flight medic for twenty yesrs now and i still learn every day.....

 

[Ridryder911]

I believe that Basics are need , hell that how we all started out . iv beeen a flight medic for twenty yesrs now and i still learn every day.....

Not all of us. I and know of several hundred others that were NEVER a Basic EMT, that started as a Paramedic. Yet, we too agree we are still learn something everyday as well.

R/r 911

 

[JPINFV]

I believe that Basics are need , hell that how we all started out . iv beeen a flight medic for twenty yesrs now and i still learn every day.....

How does learning something new every day have anything to do with being/requiring someone to be a basic?

 

[Ridryder911]

I believe that Basics are need , hell that how we all started out . iv beeen a flight medic for twenty yesrs now and i still learn every day.....

Now if we could only get that spelling down.. (just joking, welcome to the forum!)


R/r 911

 

[firemedic7982]

In your country maybe?.. Wait, I was never a Basic EMT. Yes, I have 4 Paramedics that NEVER were a Basic EMT either.

Now, really inform me what "medical care you provided? What difference did you make, that a common laymen with good advanced first aid training could not? Splinting?.. No Hmm maybe controlling hemorrhaging? No ..Okay, how about CPR? No.. Assisting in administration of NTG, EpiPen? No. Wow! A common laymen can give much more than a Basic EMT, they are far more restricted. Okay, maybe taking a set of vitals? That it's it ! Oops that is not treating, rather assessing.. Begin to see a trend?

Sure, I will say Basic EMT's are essential.. and they are GREAT!.. As their role and educational allows.. as a Medical First Responder and that's it! Stabilize, seriously injured and ill patients until ALS arrives. No, there is not enough education to assess what is serious and what is not nor to transport critical patients and definitely not to perform advanced and invasive procedures.

Again, this is NOT against a particular person. It is again, just the facts.. something many EMT's do not want to face.

Don't like the system, then either go to school or change it! Increase the required EMT educational requirements and or accept the level that it is.

This would be similar to a nurses aide complaining about the nursing profession. That they should be recognized more, allowed to do more, etc.. What would you expect the answer to be? .... Like I tell you, that they are appreciated but they are suited for that job & functions for a reason. Otherwise, their arguments are unfounded and if they want to personally change, then change within the system... there is a way.

R/r 911

Alright Rid.

i agree with you on about 98% of the things you say. But... You're being a bit arrogant here. you're saying one thing, and say you mean another. The minute you start to devalue those around you, the sooner you get left in the dark. All by yourself.

 

[Ridryder911]

No actually, I say what I mean. EMT's are considered in the same arena and level as a Nurses Aide, yet we allow them to have autonomy? The only reason of "devaluing" is because the role and the responsibilities do NOT match the education requirements. Again, stop placing false ideas in the EMT course, and teach what that minimum level is designed to do .. provide first response first aid and initial medical care.


Arrogant? .. I have been called worse, and don't mind as long as is it in being in the best interest and being a patient advocate. To ensure safety, and proper medical care is delivered.

R/r 911

 

[wolfwyndd]

Why don't we just do away with the EMS system all together and just staff the ambulances with Doctors? They get more training then any of us.

 

[firemedic7982]

rid, your saying then, as a basoc it is impossible for me to know , or be educated outside of my skill set? the only thing i should do is first aide? it sounds to me like this is a situation where yoou feel like you are on a plateau above others. you have reminded us several times that you were never a basic. you are always quick to tout how much education you have, and act like some sort of martyr on a quest to protect the purity of medicine.

i agree with you on 98% of things. you are an eloquent, educated, well mannered individual, for that you should be applauded. conversly you have used this thread to make it painfully clear that in your eyes basics are of no more use than the common layman. you are stereotyping all basics. im sure my partner flight-lp would have to disagree with you on all basics being lowly educated, and just a bunch of first aiders.

 

[mikeylikesit]

You can be the most educated individual in the world as far as medicine is concerned. You can know more than a MD. The thing is that as long as you have a Basic cert you can only provide basic life support and care legally. I know a ton about medicine, more than a few nurses that I know...but as a medic I can only do what the state and other regulatory group’s state that I can do.

 

[Ridryder911]

Why don't we just do away with the EMS system all together and just staff the ambulances with Doctors? They get more training then any of us.

You don't know the history of EMS very well do you? Actually that is what the first idea in the "White Papers suggested. In France & several other countries that is exactly what they do... Also, there has been three separate physician groups that just started advertising to make "house calls".. so it may not be funny.

Anyone that would even suggest Paramedic is even near the same caliber of an emergency physician has not been exposed to medicine, the same as trying to justify that Basic Life Support is anywhere near emergency medicine, it is just that.. Basic Care= First Aid
.. hence the reason it is called B-A-S-I-C.

rid, your saying then, as a basic it is impossible for me to know , or be educated outside of my skill set? the only thing i should do is first aide? it sounds to me like this is a situation where you feel like you are on a plateau above others. you have reminded us several times that you were never a basic. you are always quick to tout how much education you have, and act like some sort of martyr on a quest to protect the purity of medicine.

i agree with you on 98% of things. you are an eloquent, educated, well mannered individual, for that you should be applauded. conversly you have used this thread to make it painfully clear that in your eyes basics are of no more use than the common layman. you are stereotyping all basics. im sure my partner flight-lp would have to disagree with you on all basics being lowly educated, and just a bunch of first aiders.

I don't care if you have a PhD, an M.D. (that is NOT a license, rather it is a Degree) or M.S. in Traumatology, unless your license or certification states that you can perform care or are expected to perform care at a certain level, one can not do above their license.
Now, I have NEVER said knowledge is bad OR one should not exceed their knowledge, even suggesting demonstrates one has not read my post entirely.

Sorry, if it offends persons, so be it. truth hurts. The EMT curriculum is just barely above common layman knowledge. It is written at a 6'th grade reading level, with skills that are classified as simplistic and repetitious. Sorry, that is from the National Curriculum Review and EMS Educators as verified by multiple studies on the EMT. This is why it is usually considered equivalent to a nurses aide training. Don't be pissed at the messenger, be angered at the system. Don't like it.. then change it!

Yes, I have had several partners that were Basic and were very highly educated, but it did not matter in regards to clinical care.. they could diagnose an "Widow Maker AMI" but could not do squat for it because they were not licensed to. In the same regards I am cautious for anyone that is supposed to be so educated not realizing this.

If one does not like the perception or even the truth then there is an alternative, go to school and change it. Otherwise learn to acknowledge and be able to deal with the persona.

Me and Flight LP have had many discussions about this, and you might want to read his posts on other sites as well.