EMT-B/BLS care is there a point??

[LE-EMT]

My new thread..... This may bring the proverbial pot to a boil but well I am curious....

After reading several posts in several different threads I have developed a new question to pose to all of you.... It would seem that some of you ( not all ) higher level care givers Medics and up seem to believe that EMT-B/BLS's aren't needed. Now personally being a pre-student I don't really know all the logistics and everything that comes with being a basic, so I can't really say what is needed. That being said and the cya being taken care of.

Is it that you individuals think that there is no need for the basics' or is it just that you are so arrogant. I can not and will not name names because well as many of you know I have already walked that fine line in the past. These attitudes of medics are gods and the rest are mindless peons running a muck in your wakes just dumb founds me. I understand many of you take your jobs and lives seriously, I respect you all for that. What I don't understand is how you can completely belittle these future medics of tomorrow. Is this something that is seen in the field or is it just egos running wild on the internet? To me it seems like it would be a vast waste of time and money to enter a field knowing I was going to be treated like crap by my peers and mentors.

I understand there is a hierarchy in every field. Its what keeps everything running smoothly. So when you treat the lower level guys like crap doesn't that effect the upper level guys???? Hell if EMT-B's are just glorified lift assists and drivers then why bother? Why not just employ joe blow bum from the corner at least that way we are all making a difference. He isn't gonna care how you treat him as long as you give him a sandwich, a warm place to sleep, and a 40 oz at the end of the day. Would be a hell of a lot cheaper then an EMT as well.

Ok in the end there really was no question it turned out to be more of a rant.....LOL oh well. comment if you like. I suspect I will be attacked for something or another some where along the lines. Which will only validate my point. I guess my thoughts are we should all try and treat each other a little better especially those who are lower on the totem pole.

 

[snaketooth10k]

Inb4 attacks on anyone at all, I would like to say that medics and basics are team mates. They should act as such. While I enjoy a good argument, dying patients can really ruin everybody's day. Try to remember that medics are full of medical knowledge, but basics are the ones who have to assist them and make sure everything that isn't a medic's job goes smoothly. BLS is also much more prevalent than ALS. ALS takes more time, energy, and sometimes money to learn, but BLS has to know about as much (except drugs and advanced airway and other minors) to get the job done right.

Instead of fighting, join forces to form ILS: Incredible Life Support!

 

[Ridryder911]

Inb4 attacks on anyone at all, I would like to say that medics and basics are team mates. They should act as such. While I enjoy a good argument, dying patients can really ruin everybody's day. Try to remember that medics are full of medical knowledge, but basics are the ones who have to assist them and make sure everything that isn't a medic's job goes smoothly. BLS is also much more prevalent than ALS. ALS takes more time, energy, and sometimes money to learn, but BLS has to know about as much (except drugs and advanced airway and other minors) to get the job done right.

Instead of fighting, join forces to form ILS: Incredible Life Support!

Now let's all hold hands & sing Kumbaya!.. Seriously, love to where rainbows are daily too but let's be realistic ... Dying patients do not "ruin" my day.. it is just part of the business, when you see one or two day, you understand very fast it is just a part of life just like living. In fact sometimes it is a blessing...

As well, do not know where you see BLS more prevelant than ALS.. except in EMS. NO where else is BLS even defined in medicine other than EMS, because we have had to make excuses for continuing to have Basic Life Support instead of ALS.

Are you sure that BLS has to know as much as ALS? Want to compare the curriculum? Again, 150 hours is not even as long as my communication(s) module on understanding radio communications...

So yes, work together for the patient's sake but let's be realistic and understanding on the divisions so each other can perform at the fullest.

R/r 911

 

[hitechredneckemt]

I have stated this before " To be a good Medic a person has to be a good Basic first". I do not know any one on her personally. This is no way an attack on anyone,but all the good medics i know where good basics. I do know a few medics that that where not good basics and they have not made good medics.
Once again this no way an attack on anyone on this forum. I form my opinions on medics in the truck not by what i read because we all can be arrogant from time to time, myself included.

 

[Ridryder911]

My new thread..... This may bring the proverbial pot to a boil but well I am curious....

After reading several posts in several different threads I have developed a new question to pose to all of you.... It would seem that some of you ( not all ) higher level care givers Medics and up seem to believe that EMT-B/BLS's aren't needed. Now personally being a pre-student I don't really know all the logistics and everything that comes with being a basic, so I can't really say what is needed. That being said and the cya being taken care of.

Is it that you individuals think that there is no need for the basics' or is it just that you are so arrogant. I can not and will not name names because well as many of you know I have already walked that fine line in the past. These attitudes of medics are gods and the rest are mindless peons running a muck in your wakes just dumb founds me. I understand many of you take your jobs and lives seriously, I respect you all for that. What I don't understand is how you can completely belittle these future medics of tomorrow. Is this something that is seen in the field or is it just egos running wild on the internet? To me it seems like it would be a vast waste of time and money to enter a field knowing I was going to be treated like crap by my peers and mentors.

I understand there is a hierarchy in every field. Its what keeps everything running smoothly. So when you treat the lower level guys like crap doesn't that effect the upper level guys???? Hell if EMT-B's are just glorified lift assists and drivers then why bother? Why not just employ joe blow bum from the corner at least that way we are all making a difference. He isn't gonna care how you treat him as long as you give him a sandwich, a warm place to sleep, and a 40 oz at the end of the day. Would be a hell of a lot cheaper then an EMT as well.

Ok in the end there really was no question it turned out to be more of a rant.....LOL oh well. comment if you like. I suspect I will be attacked for something or another some where along the lines. Which will only validate my point. I guess my thoughts are we should all try and treat each other a little better especially those who are lower on the totem pole.

I will tell you why. Basic levels have held EMS back for decades now! The curriculum was watered down in the mid 90's to not to have teach "too much medical & technical" reading. Even now, the Basic EMT text is written at a 6'th grade level. NO where else in medicine does one read about BLS vs. ALS because MEDICINE is MEDICINE. There is NO levels.. You deliver PATIENT CARE!. Period!

As well, all the levels EMT-I, EMT/CC, EIOU, etc.. ALL are again in lieu or being compared to the gold standard of the Paramedic. Excuses and that is it! Seriously, it has been over 40+ years and many communities still do not have the advanced care provided by TV's Johnny & Roy Emergency from the 70's. Why? Because the public assumes EMT's & Paramedics are the same.. the same comparison as one comparing CNA & RN's.. ludicrous. The public is usually duped assuming one that has taken a little more than a 150 hour advanced first aid class is actually administering medical care. Misleading.

Look at other countries.. Yes, we started the ball in the early 70's unfortunately we dropped it in the early 90's. We should had eliminated the Basic Level altogether except for MFR, as they are solely designed for. Yes, keep the Basic Level for those that are going to first respond, very remote areas where skill deterioration and ALS is nil to none. Again, don't confuse the public and medical community though, it is medical care. Look at our neighbors towards the North and other countries such as Australia & South Africa.

Unfortunately, we teach EMT's that after a 150 course that is much more than what it is . It is only & only a ENTRY level. The very basics.. anything less would never be considered anything related medically.

I believe what aggravates most professionals on this site (if you notice, very few stay here) is for some reason many posts that they are already experts in this profession, just after taking the entry level course.. and some have not done that! When in reality they have less than 5 years experience or less than a thousand patient contacts, in which most professional EMS services consider being a novice.

We will always have Basic Levels... what and where they are used is currently changing. We need to emphasize in the EMT curriculum, this is ONLY the beginning. One can have an opinion about EMS, but in reality until you have became educated, experienced then you research instead of basing upon emotions.

Am I mad? You bet! Communities are placing their patients in jeopardy. Communities that could have ALS but place BLS instead. Placing BLS units where ALS should be. Patients having AMI's without proper diagnostics and treatment, fractures without analgesics, vomiting with aspiration, eclampsia deliveries without magnesium, etc...

Only in EMS and EMS forums will you find posts on how we should lowering our standards or attempting to justify lower care.

R/r 911

 

[mdkemt]

I think it is finially time for me to have my rant! I am tired of reading that EMT-Basics are not as important...or not as respected by ALS...or this that and the other thing. That is the BIGGEST load of @#$% I have heard. How many can actually tell me they ONLY took the EMT-Paramedic course. Oh wait! You have to be a basic first before you can go advanced!

The levels were created to help in bringing emergency care to communities that would not otherwise have this. It created a route for safe transportation.

As for levels being a diluted curriculum I think that is a arrogant comment to make. It is not about diluting the curriculum it is about allowing a person to grasp the knowledge being handed down to them. Any good medic knows you use your basic skills before your advanced skills and a lot of the time basic is what is needed. LOC! ABC!

And there being no levels in the medical field...That is again an arrogant comment to make. Here is a list of levels in the medical field (I am sure I will miss a few):
EMR
EMT-Basic
EMT-Advance
EMT-Paramedic
EMT-Critical/Fligh Medic
LPN
RN
RPN
NP
Doctor-General Practictioner
Doctor-Surgeon/Specialist

All these levels require different amounts of training and even more when you specialize. So before you say there is no levels in the medical field maybe ask around.

My problem is that everyone always picks on the litle guy. We are all equal! Sure we have a different knowledge base but that doesn't mean you are a better medic then me. Just means you went and got more education that I have and can provide different medical treatment then me. That is a good thing.

In my community we are lucky to have EMS. EMS just started up 7 years ago and started with first responders. Now we are just in the process of bringing in ALS. I can sit here and think about how many people would have died in this town alone if it wasnt for EMT-Basics. Maybe 1/4 of those patients would have needed ALS but still survived and some it would have made things easier if ALS was here.

I am going back to get my Advance Care Paramedic. But I needed to work as a basic for 2 years at fulltime hours before they let you back in. There reasoning behind it is to make sure you have your basic skills down pack so you always start basic and move to als when needed. Now maybe our Primary Care Paramedic program is a bit different then that in the states but still Basic Medics are essential!

MDKEMT

 

[Vizior]

MDK, the thing I think you're missing is this:

RNs don't need to be LPNs before they get their certification. MD's don't need to be PAs before they get their license.

You're right, EMT-B does bring a level of care to a community that may otherwise not have EMS, but in some many cases there's no reason for it. There are communities that spend tons of money per year to pay for a volunteer corps to exist, with huge ambulances and lavish things, however, they still contract another service to provide ALS for them. For less they could easily provide an EMT-B/-P ambulance, which, while probably not quite as effective, provides the highest level of care currently accepted in the US prehospitally. I don't know much about Canada's system, so I can't really comment on how that relates.

At what point do you accept that only BLS care is sufficient? I only use terms of BLS/ALS because that's the standard used by the national standards. If you dispatch a -B/-P ambulance you always have someone trained in Advanced Life Support measures available to you, however can release it to BLS to give the basic experience. And to take it one step further, if you already have an ALS unit being staffed, you can just replace the -B with a -P for whatever the difference in wage is.

Furthermore, you always talk about how you need a good basic, and BLS before ALS, etc etc etc. However, why can a Paramedic not provide the same, if not better utilization of those skills. It's not like Paramedic school teaches someone to forget ABCs, if teaches the physiology behind why you're doing things. Such as how to use EtCO2 detectors to aid in your consideration in the adequecies of ventilation and oxygenation.

You're saying that EMT-B is necessary, however, why can't you just learn all the material of a paramedic, and learn how to utilize all the skills throughout your clinical rotations? I've seen medics become medics straight out of Basic class, and they strived on it, and some of them have received the best reviews from supervisors.

 

[mdkemt]

I am not saying the ALS is useless. I am merely trying to state thst BLS is not useless and that I still feel they are essential. Some places do not have the funding to have ALS. Difference in pay is significant. Where I work it would be a $10/hr increase. That is a lot for some services.

You are correct ith RN's and LPN's however you do have to be a doctor in order to become an anesthesiologist. Is this not another level in the medical field?

I am all for having a BLA/ALS on each care. I don't think tht is a bad idea in the least. And yes...sometimes BLS care is sufficient enough and sometimes it isnt. But I do not think that BLS is useless or not needed. If I could have just finished my training from the get go I would have. Does that make more sense? Yes! But it isnt the way it works. I don't think gaining experience is a bad thing either. I feel it gives a person some background in the field.

I work as BLS. I work on car and in the emergency department. I have two different protocol I follow pending where I am. I have a different skill set in each place. I cannot begin to explain the vast amount of experience I have gained working in the emergency department. It has allowed me to understand and apply my knowledge base. It has also gained me more knowledge in which I can now apply to my ALS education. There are somethings you can't learn in a class room. Being BLS for 4 years has allowed me to realize that I enjoy my choice in career and that I want to accel in this field. I also feel better prepared to go back to school because I have the experience behind me.

I am in no way saying that being able to go do your ALS from the get go is a bad thing. I just don't think it is a fair assuption to make that BLS can't give sufficient care to people. I think in some situations they can when they can't they need to recognize that and ask for ALS. That is how we operate here. If you are riding a BLS car and need ALS you call for an interept! That simple.

MDKEMT

 

[Ridryder911]

I think it is finially time for me to have my rant! I am tired of reading that EMT-Basics are not as important...or not as respected by ALS...or this that and the other thing. That is the BIGGEST load of @#$% I have heard. How many can actually tell me they ONLY took the EMT-Paramedic course. Oh wait! You have to be a basic first before you can go advanced!

The levels were created to help in bringing emergency care to communities that would not otherwise have this. It created a route for safe transportation.

As for levels being a diluted curriculum I think that is a arrogant comment to make. It is not about diluting the curriculum it is about allowing a person to grasp the knowledge being handed down to them. Any good medic knows you use your basic skills before your advanced skills and a lot of the time basic is what is needed. LOC! ABC!

And there being no levels in the medical field...That is again an arrogant comment to make. Here is a list of levels in the medical field (I am sure I will miss a few):
EMR
EMT-Basic
EMT-Advance
EMT-Paramedic
EMT-Critical/Fligh Medic
LPN
RN
RPN
NP
Doctor-General Practictioner
Doctor-Surgeon/Specialist

All these levels require different amounts of training and even more when you specialize. So before you say there is no levels in the medical field maybe ask around.

My problem is that everyone always picks on the litle guy. We are all equal! Sure we have a different knowledge base but that doesn't mean you are a better medic then me. Just means you went and got more education that I have and can provide different medical treatment then me. That is a good thing.

In my community we are lucky to have EMS. EMS just started up 7 years ago and started with first responders. Now we are just in the process of bringing in ALS. I can sit here and think about how many people would have died in this town alone if it wasnt for EMT-Basics. Maybe 1/4 of those patients would have needed ALS but still survived and some it would have made things easier if ALS was here.

I am going back to get my Advance Care Paramedic. But I needed to work as a basic for 2 years at fulltime hours before they let you back in. There reasoning behind it is to make sure you have your basic skills down pack so you always start basic and move to als when needed. Now maybe our Primary Care Paramedic program is a bit different then that in the states but still Basic Medics are essential!

MDKEMT

In your country maybe?.. Wait, I was never a Basic EMT. Yes, I have 4 Paramedics that NEVER were a Basic EMT either.

Now, really inform me what "medical care you provided? What difference did you make, that a common laymen with good advanced first aid training could not? Splinting?.. No Hmm maybe controlling hemorrhaging? No ..Okay, how about CPR? No.. Assisting in administration of NTG, EpiPen? No. Wow! A common laymen can give much more than a Basic EMT, they are far more restricted. Okay, maybe taking a set of vitals? That it's it ! Oops that is not treating, rather assessing.. Begin to see a trend?

Sure, I will say Basic EMT's are essential.. and they are GREAT!.. As their role and educational allows.. as a Medical First Responder and that's it! Stabilize, seriously injured and ill patients until ALS arrives. No, there is not enough education to assess what is serious and what is not nor to transport critical patients and definitely not to perform advanced and invasive procedures.

Again, this is NOT against a particular person. It is again, just the facts.. something many EMT's do not want to face.

Don't like the system, then either go to school or change it! Increase the required EMT educational requirements and or accept the level that it is.

This would be similar to a nurses aide complaining about the nursing profession. That they should be recognized more, allowed to do more, etc.. What would you expect the answer to be? .... Like I tell you, that they are appreciated but they are suited for that job & functions for a reason. Otherwise, their arguments are unfounded and if they want to personally change, then change within the system... there is a way.

R/r 911

 

[Ridryder911]

You are correct ith RN's and LPN's however you do have to be a doctor in order to become an anesthesiologist. Is this not another level in the medical field?.

MDKEMT

No, one can become an Nurse Anesthetist.. both anesthesiologist & anesthetist is a specialty not a level... Both are considered either nurses or physicians. There is not a Dr. Dr. .. etc.

R/r 911

 

[Hastings]

Very simply, I'd rather have a great basic over a mediocre medic any day.

 

[mdkemt]

In your country maybe?.. Wait, I was never a Basic EMT. Yes, I have 4 Paramedics that NEVER were a Basic EMT either.

Now, really inform me what "medical care you provided? What difference did you make, that a common laymen with good advanced first aid training could not? Splinting?.. No Hmm maybe controlling hemorrhaging? No ..Okay, how about CPR? No.. Assisting in administration of NTG, EpiPen? No. Wow! A common laymen can give much more than a Basic EMT, they are far more restricted. Okay, maybe taking a set of vitals? That it's it ! Oops that is not treating, rather assessing.. Begin to see a trend?

Sure, I will say Basic EMT's are essential.. and they are GREAT!.. As their role and educational allows.. as a Medical First Responder and that's it! Stabilize, seriously injured and ill patients until ALS arrives. No, there is not enough education to assess what is serious and what is not nor to transport critical patients and definitely not to perform advanced and invasive procedures.

Again, this is NOT against a particular person. It is again, just the facts.. something many EMT's do not want to face.

Don't like the system, then either go to school or change it! Increase the required EMT educational requirements and or accept the level that it is.

This would be similar to a nurses aide complaining about the nursing profession. That they should be recognized more, allowed to do more, etc.. What would you expect the answer to be? .... Like I tell you, that they are appreciated but they are suited for that job & functions for a reason. Otherwise, their arguments are unfounded and if they want to personally change, then change within the system... there is a way.

R/r 911

To be honest with you I Resent the fact you undermine my abilities to provide medical care to those in need. I find it repulsive and appauling. What medical care do I provide? What kind of question is that?

There are many different procedures and medications...yes medications that I can administer. Where do you get off undermining anyone who has taken BLS training? Oh wait because you have more education! No I am sorry that doesn't fly with me in the least bit. You are no better then anyone in this field! You may have more education then some of us but that doesn't make you better then anyone.

As for beginning to see a trend...yeah I see the trend. You are entitled to your own opinion. I can respect that. But if you are not educated in the abilities I have as a Primary Care Paramedic then you need to do the appropriate research or ask. You are as good as your education allows to an extent. I have done a lot more studying after school and also work closely with doctors and gain more experience and knowledge. Oh but wait yes I am BLS...

There are lots of things I am able to do to help patients...wait not help...TREAT. You said medicine is medicine and patient care is patient care...then anything under a doctor is obsolete isnt it? With this logic you are saying everyone needs to be a doctor in order to give care. I don't agree!

As for not being suited for that job...I do not think this is a correct assumption in the least. It has nothing to do with being suited for a job. For some people they dont have the grades to get into school but they have the practical knowledge. Not everyone is book smart. Along with some people do not have the money to get them to school. This is in no way anyones problem but their own but it still gives no one the right to say they are not suited becasue they choose a level lower.

Yes here in Saskatchewan you have to be a Primary Care Paramedic or an Intermediate Care Paramedic for a min of 2 years with full time hours before you can enter the Advance Care Paramedic program. So please before you try and belittle the education I have received and try and tell me I cannot do this that or the other thing...please do your research. I am a Primary Care Paramedic and deliver the Best Patient Care I can to every patients I have.

MDKEMT

 

[triemal04]

MDKEMT-

1. You've got to remember, the EMS systems for the US and Canada are extremely different; an EMT-B is nowhere near the same as a PCP; you know more, and can do more (I believe). As well, the amount of training is much different; 150 hours versus...I've heard some say around 800-1000 for a PCP.

2. Saying "basic skills before medic skills" is just another way to say "basics save paramedics." Either way, it's crap. Sure, everyone assess the airway and breathing, but as a paramedic I'm thinking of other things than an EMT-B and will be going down a different path than them most of the time.

3. There are lot's of levels, but the point still stands that to be an RN or MD you don't have to have a lower licence first. And an anesthesiologst is just a doctor's specialty; like being a pediatrician or cardiologist, they are still MD's, just trained in one specific area.

4. We are not all equal, I'm sorry. I've never walked into the OR and told the surgeon exactly what needed to be done and how they needed to do it just because I saw the patient first. Why? They know a hell of a lot more than me and I know nothing about how to do their job. As well, a paramedic will know a hell of a lot more than an EMT-B and a EMT-B will not be able to do the job of a paramedic.

5. It's not that EMT-B's and BLS is useless; they aren't, it's just that people all to often think they can do more than they can, that they are more important than they are, and that, for some reason, just working in the field makes them special. Let EMT-B's be first responders. Even let them work on an ambulance with a paramedic, but they shouldn't be running calls on their own; the education and knowledge for that isn't there. As well, they really can't do much for a patient other than drive faster. It is an entry-level position in EMS; if this is your profession, then why stay there? Move on.

6. There is always a way to get to being a higher level care provider, if you are suited for it. Grants...loas...scholarships...scrimping and saving...there is always a way. And by suited I mean you can understand the material taught, retain that material and apply it in the field, and actually perform at that level. If you can't do that...then you aren't suited for it.

 

[Ridryder911]

I'm sorry, you are not understanding the post. Again, in the U.S. the Basic CANNOT administer medications other than to assist, or simple med.'s such as the Epipen, NTG & ASA. If you are able to administer medications then YOU ARE NOT PERFORMING BLS, you are performing ALS (i.e advanced life support=medications, advanced airway, etc.). Sorry, you did not know the differential. I find that repulsive as well.

Being, better than anyone else.? You bet! I am better because I strive and study to be better. I never sat on my arse or had any excuse not to progress upwards. Everyone has the chance if they really want to.

You keep attempting to compare your system with the U.S. system, and if you read my posts I keep referring that the system in Canada is far more advanced than the U.S. Again, there is NO comparison in your levels and those in the U.S., the Basic EMT in the U.S. can be as short as 2 weeks in length and is just a few hours more than a Advanced First Aid Course..

So when you refer to BLS.. that is NOT a level that is able to provide ALS care. .otherwise they would be ALS.. okay?

Also, I never said they are useless.. again, used as they should be as a MFR. Would you entrust a nurses aide to be the sole provider of care in a ICU?... think about it..

R/r 911

 

[mdkemt]

MDKEMT-

1. You've got to remember, the EMS systems for the US and Canada are extremely different; an EMT-B is nowhere near the same as a PCP; you know more, and can do more (I believe). As well, the amount of training is much different; 150 hours versus...I've heard some say around 800-1000 for a PCP.

2. Saying "basic skills before medic skills" is just another way to say "basics save paramedics." Either way, it's crap. Sure, everyone assess the airway and breathing, but as a paramedic I'm thinking of other things than an EMT-B and will be going down a different path than them most of the time.

3. There are lot's of levels, but the point still stands that to be an RN or MD you don't have to have a lower licence first. And an anesthesiologst is just a doctor's specialty; like being a pediatrician or cardiologist, they are still MD's, just trained in one specific area.

4. We are not all equal, I'm sorry. I've never walked into the OR and told the surgeon exactly what needed to be done and how they needed to do it just because I saw the patient first. Why? They know a hell of a lot more than me and I know nothing about how to do their job. As well, a paramedic will know a hell of a lot more than an EMT-B and a EMT-B will not be able to do the job of a paramedic.

5. It's not that EMT-B's and BLS is useless; they aren't, it's just that people all to often think they can do more than they can, that they are more important than they are, and that, for some reason, just working in the field makes them special. Let EMT-B's be first responders. Even let them work on an ambulance with a paramedic, but they shouldn't be running calls on their own; the education and knowledge for that isn't there. As well, they really can't do much for a patient other than drive faster. It is an entry-level position in EMS; if this is your profession, then why stay there? Move on.

6. There is always a way to get to being a higher level care provider, if you are suited for it. Grants...loas...scholarships...scrimping and saving...there is always a way. And by suited I mean you can understand the material taught, retain that material and apply it in the field, and actually perform at that level. If you can't do that...then you aren't suited for it.

Alrighty:

1) Yes our program is longer. I did 13 weeks in school fulltime and then I did 5 weeks in the field and hospital. Classes went from 8am-5pm Monday to Friday. But I am still BLS and my point is do your research before making a generalzed assumption and opinion. Be Informed! Not all of us in this community are from the states!

2) Once again...my basic skills are obviously different from the US. Do your research because it is basic before advance no matter what even if your thinking is going in a different direction and needs to go into ALS skills. I am trained to recognize when I need ALS.

3) Reguardless of if it is specialized or not it is the same idea. They still have to be licensed with the College of Physicians before they can specialize.

4) We are all equal. Your missing the point. When I say we are al equal I am saying we all had different education and we all bring different thought and idea to the table. You bring different skills to the table. But we are all still human and we are all still doing the same thing...Patient Care. The level is different at which we provide this but your not better then me just because you education is higher. You just bring a different approach to the game.

5) Sometimes that is easier said then done. But I can say I am NOT a glorified ambulance driver. I have the ability to do much more then that. And I use this ability daily.

6) And I do not disagree with this point in the least. But I can say sometimes it is easier for others to get the appropriate funding.

MDKEMT

 

[Hastings]

Basic/Basic < Medic/Medic < Medic/Basic

And the reason why the partnership of a medic and a basic is better than two medics is because while it's nice to have someone to bounce ideas off of, to have one person who specializes on basic calls and one who specializes on advanced calls just lets things flow better.

As for the topic though, 90% of all calls are BLS. It's nice to have someone specifically trained for BLS there, because I have to admit, paramedics can forget the basics and make things much more complicated than they need to be. It's always nice to have that basic to ground them. Plus, they'll do all those things paramedics think they're so far above, and do it will. I don't know, but I'd always prefer riding with a basic over another paramedic.

 

[mdkemt]

I'm sorry, you are not understanding the post. Again, in the U.S. the Basic CANNOT administer medications other than to assist, or simple med.'s such as the Epipen, NTG & ASA. If you are able to administer medications then YOU ARE NOT PERFORMING BLS, you are performing ALS (i.e advanced life support=medications, advanced airway, etc.). Sorry, you did not know the differential. I find that repulsive as well.

Being, better than anyone else.? You bet! I am better because I strive and study to be better. I never sat on my arse or had any excuse not to progress upwards. Everyone has the chance if they really want to.

You keep attempting to compare your system with the U.S. system, and if you read my posts I keep referring that the system in Canada is far more advanced than the U.S. Again, there is NO comparison in your levels and those in the U.S., the Basic EMT in the U.S. can be as short as 2 weeks in length and is just a few hours more than a Advanced First Aid Course..

So when you refer to BLS.. that is NOT a level that is able to provide ALS care. .otherwise they would be ALS.. okay?


R/r 911

Rid,

Regardless of Canada vs. US in this matter my point is I am BLS even though I give medications. The meds I give are not considered ALS.

I will clarify what I can do as a PCP:
Monitor V/S
Oxygen
OPA insertion and suction
Cardiac Monitoring
CPR
Spinal Immobilization
Fracture Immobilization
P.A.S.G. Application
Glucose Monitoring
SaO2 Monitoring
Defibrillation
I.V. insertion (only in the hospital)
I.V. Monitoring - can monitor with Antimicrobials, Blood/Blood products, Heparin, KCL
NT Monitoring
Foley Insertion and Monitoring
CT Monitoring
Central Venous Lines

Medications I can administer:
ASA
Activated Charcoal
Amyl Nitrate
Epi SC
Epi-Pen
NTG
Oral Glucose
I do not need orders from a physicians to give this unless I have ran into any of the contrainications.

So does this mean I cannot do anything for a patient? You find it repulsive I didn't know the differential. LOL What differential? Medication administration doesn't mean you are ALS. If that is the case then every person who has ever give tylenol to someone is ALS. Like really!

My point is simple. You cannot make a generalization unless you are directing it to a specific place in which then you should state that. Other wise it leave a HUGE area for interpretation.

MDKEMT

 

[curraheemed]

This thread is rapidly becoming one of those who's better threads... so... here are my two cents.

There is a valid need for everyone in EMS. Everyone from the MFR to the doctors and nurses in the Hospital. Granted when I went through my EMT-B course we were given the standard "O2, Reassurance, Transport" routine. Over the years though I have had the opportunity to get some advanced training. Yes, I am still and EMT-B in the civilian sector, and I am a Combat Medic on the military side. As one of the lead medical instructors for my Battalion I can honestly say that there is a need for the whole shebang!

With the advanced training the military has given me I can see where some of the EMT-I and EMT-P guys are coming from saying there is no need for BLS, but something that a lot of people are overlooking is that sometimes all that a patient really needs is the basics... someone with a broken leg from falling off a porch (yes I've seen it from a 3ft porch) doesn't need to have an EKG, two large bore IV's, and a slew of pain meds. Sometimes all that they need is a splint, and a ride to the hospital. BLS works on BLS situations. ALS works on ALS situations.

Yes, the advanced training does make you look down some other paths that a basic mght not see, but I have met Paramedics who need to have their license taken from them for being stupid, and I've met some Basics who need to go for their "P".

What it all boils down to is that there are good guys (and gals), and there are idiots. It doesn't matter the level of your license... just remember... when TSHTF level of license doesn't matter... your ability to do what you are trained to do does.

 

[Ridryder911]

Basic/Basic < Medic/Medic < Medic/Basic

And the reason why the partnership of a medic and a basic is better than two medics is because while it's nice to have someone to bounce ideas off of, to have one person who specializes on basic calls and one who specializes on advanced calls just lets things flow better.

As for the topic though, 90% of all calls are BLS. It's nice to have someone specifically trained for BLS there, because I have to admit, paramedics can forget the basics and make things much more complicated than they need to be. It's always nice to have that basic to ground them. Plus, they'll do all those things paramedics think they're so far above, and do it will. I don't know, but I'd always prefer riding with a basic over another paramedic.

Okay, how can someone forget the basics? Really C'mon..! What happens when a Basic EMT forgets the basic? What do they do then? Seriously, if one forgets the basics then they are not really worthy to be advanced level, they are really lousy medics period. If one is truly advanced level, then basics will be automatically. How can one be specialized in basics? ..Would that not be general care? Again, there is not really such a thing in medicine as advanced and basic.. it is all patient care. Again, only in EMS we have to make differentiate the two.. again, in real medicine there is not such critter.

Bouncing off ideas? .. I do ride with a Basics occasionally, the ideas is usually teaching them. Very few of the Basics I ride with appreciate discussing in-depth ALS care or even understand in-depth pharmalogically. Especially in treating a patient, other than providing the core care, what are they or can they bring to the table? If they can, chances are they are not at a U.S. Basic level. Many of our basics we use are Paramedic students awaiting to test for their Paramedic, so they can get some experience.

R/r 911

 

[Ridryder911]

g!

With the advanced training the military has given me I can see where some of the EMT-I and EMT-P guys are coming from saying there is no need for BLS, but something that a lot of people are overlooking is that sometimes all that a patient really needs is the basics... someone with a broken leg from falling off a porch (yes I've seen it from a 3ft porch) doesn't need to have an EKG, two large bore IV's, and a slew of pain meds. Sometimes all that they need is a splint, and a ride to the hospital. BLS works on BLS situations. ALS works on ALS situations.

.

Are you certain that they do not need that EKG? Really, what if they had a history of vertigo prior to fall? Ever heard of Sick Sinus Syndrome? IV's.. pain med.'s.. Really, you maybe a tough one but Granny might like that analgesic for a comminuted fracture, and yes I am sure they would like it IV in lieu of I.M..... yes, even just 3' in height. Again, the reason why ALS should be on each every call to assess and treat. The reason many basics assume calls are so simple, is because they have not been taught it might NOT be as simplistic as it seems...

R/r 911