Does your company have a policy against this?

[usafmedic45]

Then one must wonder why.

I have better things to spend my time wondering about.

Could it be that the available programs are not sufficient to meet the needs of these people?

Ever seen the fact that the "washout rate" in many programs geared towards helping the homeless exceeds 50% within a few weeks. When I was younger I was really active in a lot of community outreach programs geared towards this sort of population (Didn't see that one coming did you? I know what you're wondering: What the hell happened to you then?) Most of the clients tended to drop out around the time we started trying to place them into jobs to help them on their way to becoming self-sufficient. I think that says a lot about the issues that arise.

Must the society be more supportive and proactive in their recovery?

No, it's just that a lot of people do not have the drive to better themselves no matter how bad their situation. They expect a handout and sympathy but as soon as they have actually put some effort into it, most of them back down and carry on their status quo. We see it all the time in people who are suffering from smoking, drug abuse, etc but can't find the strength to fight for themselves. We've bred a generation (actually two or three) that has come to believe everything should be handed to them and that they should not have to be personally accountable for their stead in life. THAT is what gets us into messes like this.

 

[usafmedic45]

-USAFmedic

There are philosophers that would disagree with you on that point. Who says it is not a human right to violate unjust laws?

Yes, but I don't believe potentially endangering oneself by associating with unstable and desperate men and women for paltry little, if any gain is what Thoreau had in mind nor what Gandhi, King or any other rational practitioner of that philosophy was advocating. The idea of opposing unjust laws was implied to be applicable when civil liberties or rights were being quashed and there was much to be lost by failing to resist. It is not a card to be played whenever the fancy strikes us.

Violating these laws will make the problems WORSE not better as opposed to the bus boycotts or the Dandi salt tax protests. Feeding the homeless through rogue acts will simply encourage them to be even more persistent and demanding. The last thing we need to do is get them to associate cars as sources of free food and money. My earlier analogy involving dogs stands although I could have easily substituted raccoons, sharks, bears or any other omnivorous opportunistic feeder.

 

[usafmedic45]

Two fingers up to the rest.

I hope by 2 fingers, you mean pinkies, because I doubt the CL's will be too keen on the more obvious reason...

If he wants to flip me off, he's got more than the right to. Not the most mature response but I don't take offense at it and would be upset if he got in trouble for it.

 

[daedalus]

Yes, but I don't believe potentially endangering oneself by associating with unstable and desperate men and women for paltry little, if any gain is what Thoreau had in mind nor what Gandhi, King or any other rational practitioner of that philosophy was advocating. The idea of opposing unjust laws was implied to be applicable when civil liberties or rights were being quashed and there was much to be lost by failing to resist. It is not a card to be played whenever the fancy strikes us.

Violating these laws will make the problems WORSE not better as opposed to the bus boycotts or the Dandi salt tax protests. Feeding the homeless through rogue acts will simply encourage them to be even more persistent and demanding. The last thing we need to do is get them to associate cars as sources of free food and money. My earlier analogy involving dogs stands although I could have easily substituted raccoons, sharks, bears or any other omnivorous opportunistic feeder.

Touché

(10 characters)

 

[VentMedic]

There are some states that are in a crisis mode with their state budget that has hampered many programs that provide social and public medical services. As well, we now have the new homeless as a result of the economic situation. California is probably the hardest hit and I have seen first hand the results of budget cuts.

Anyone can do a quick search for stats but until you spend some time in the area, see vacant houses, closed clinics and an increase in homeless people that look like they don't belong on the street, you probably will have a hard time comprehending the magnitude of the situation. I am also saddened by the number of people who have lost their homes due to bankruptcy. Yes, they probably shouldn't have gotten suckered by some of the loans out there but nonetheless, they still lost a big investment.

At times I have a hard time believing this the United States.

This is the San Diego area.
http://www.eastcountymagazine.org/?q=node/1586

97% of those responding were negatively impacted by last year’s 3 % reduction in funding.
• 75% said they would continue to provide services for the next 12 months with a 3 % reduction in reimbursement rates.
• 66% said they could not continue to provide services with an additional 7% reduction in reimbursement rates. Some organizations stated they could survive just two-three months; others cited plans to reorganize and work to fund raise the shortfall.
• 73% of organizations providing day programs said their clients would have no other place to go to receive services if they close; 3% may be homeless as a result of the loss of the program.
• 41% of organizations providing supported living services so that clients are able to stay in their own homes said their clients would have no other place to go to receive services if they close; 12% may be homeless as a result of the loss of the program.
• Approximately 4,600 people with developmental disabilities will be impacted by cuts in services.
• 922 people will lose their jobs if organizations close or reduce services.

 

[karaya]

There's a reason signs at the zoo say, 'Please don't feed the animals'.

 

[daedalus]

Ray! I always see your photography in my lectures, it makes me think of you (obviously).

(way off topic)

 

[karaya]

Ray! I always see your photography in my lectures, it makes me think of you (obviously).

(way off topic)

Thanks man! Shot the cover to this month's JEMS also (third time in a year)!

(back on topic) In my experience, most of the bummers are not there for food, but for money and usually get it. Hence, like the zoo, 'don't feed the animals'. They'll just keep coming back for more.

 

[WuLabsWuTecH]

Sasha,
I hope someone like you is around if I ever need a hand.

Two fingers up to the rest.

I hope by 2 fingers, you mean pinkies, because I doubt the CL's will be too keen on the more obvious reason...

He's obviously giving us a peace sign!

 

[mikeN]

No policy against it, but there are so many people at intersections for some reason now that no one even bothers to give a second glance. I think police told homeless and/or panhandlers people to stay away from fire, police and ems.

 

[VentMedic]

No policy against it, but there are so many people at intersections for some reason now that no one even bothers to give a second glance. I think police told homeless and/or panhandlers people to stay away from fire, police and ems.

Again, your company does not need a policy. Massachusetts has the same law on the books as many of the other states. Whether or not LEOs decide to enforce it is another issue. However, that still does not give YOU the right to violate the law or actively encourage someone else to do so.

law prohibits panhandlers from “intentionally or recklessly blocking or interfering with” vehicles or people. The law also bars beggars from soliciting near banks and ATMs or “in an aggressive manner.”

 

[paramedichopeful]

Sasha: For one thing, I'm glad you tried to help the guy out. That is what the job is about, helping others and being caring and supportive. Secondly, I don't see where it would be in a policy or SOP in Illinois. Just ask your director or whomever is in charge to show you where it says that is expressly prohibited. And last but not least, liability. This comes from years of being sat down and having to listen to 3-hour apiece life lesson stories from my uncle (he put 27 years into the Illinois State Police; I think he'd be someone you could learn from). But anyway, you give some bum a McChicken and a Coke, and as you pull away they take down your license plate #. 2 weeks later you get called into the office by the superiors and they hand you legal papers: Lo and behold, hungry bum that you fed is suing you AND the company you work for on the claim that the food you gave him caused him to get sick. Even better, the diarrhea that the food caused dehydrated him to the point of where he had to be hospitalized. They sue you for giving them the food, and they sue your employer because you were in their bus when it happened. Everyone is so sue happy anymore; the slightest act of kindness can get your *** slammed.

So, I'm glad you tried to help, and I'm happy to see that you care about those in your community. But, a single homeless bum isn't worth you (or your partner's, for that matter) career. I mean this in good attitude; don't want to come across as a jerk. Good luck with this and hopefully nothing will become of this incident.

 

[VentMedic]

Just ask your director or whomever is in charge to show you where it says that is expressly prohibited.

I already posted the law as it pertains to Florida, where Sasha is, and other states. There does not need to be a company policy specific to this. There are many, many laws on the books that a company shouldn't have to repeat in their policy manuals. However, as for any citizen, there are some that you should be aware of for your own safety and that of others. This was a good learning experience and hopefully it made some aware of what to do and what not to do. You can still be kind to the homeless and even panhandlers but you must also be aware of the scene around you and of your own personal safety when you open your window or let your guard down. Safety is the bigger issue here and not abuse of the homeless.

 

[karaya]

I used to volunteer at a homeless shelter but found the experience quite terrifying and did not feel safe so I had to stop.

I've seen one of the St. Louis shelters and these were not the kind of folks you see in the "Grapes of Wrath".

 

[usafmedic45]

Secondly, I don't see where it would be in a policy or SOP in Illinois.

Well, keep in mind that the case I mentioned earlier where one of my EMTs was ticketed happened in Illinois so as has been said repeatedly in this thread: It does not matter what the company says since state and local laws are going to trump them.

EDIT: Ooops, VentMedic beat me to it.

 

[wyoskibum]

We had just bought lunch, and gotten a call. So we were driving to our call and got off the interstate, waiting at the light.

I'm thinking the main reason you got yelled at was because you were responding to call. This situation has the potential to delay your response, possibly causing you to be negligent in your Duty to Act.

Regardless of the opinions here about the homeless problems. I think you have a big heart and you are a good person. At the end of the day, you have to look at yourself in the mirror and to be able to sleep at night. Continue to do what you believe to be right, just perhaps not while on duty, wearing the company uniform, or driving the company vehicle.

 

[Seaglass]

It all seems like way to big of an issue to be made out of a relatively small interaction. Especially a charitable one.

I'm of the opinion that the homeless are just another bunch of people. As such, I treat them with some caution. I probably won't talk to them the first time I see them. Or the second, or the third. But if I keep seeing someone and they don't give me a bad feeling, I might start talking to them. And might give them something, if I get to know them and think it's worth it. I usually never give food or money--just stuff like toiletries, warm clothing, and the like. But working with the seriously mentally ill has made me paranoid about never giving much personally identifying information, so I'd never stop at work.

 

[VentMedic]

It all seems like way to big of an issue to be made out of a relatively small interaction.

I don't consider highway public safety laws to be an issue that is "small".

You do not encourage someone to put themselves in danger on a highway or at a busy intersection.

You do not encourage someone to wade through traffic to get a handout.

You do not encourage someone to remain at a heavily traffic area to risk distracting drivers that could drive into him or cause a collision which could also hit him.

Panhandling is supposedly protected by the 1st amendment for now but not in areas where it creates an issue of safety.

Or, maybe some here are just saying to be nice to the homeless at intersections with the hopes of that person becoming a cool trauma. The reason it is unlawful to stand on a public road is because one can easily become road kill. As EMT(P)s you should know this as it should have been taught as part of scene safety in EMT-B class...hopefully.

I do care about the homeless which is why I want them off the busy intersections and out of harm's way.

 

[Seaglass]

I don't consider highway public safety laws to be an issue that is "small".

You do not encourage someone to put themselves in danger on a highway or at a busy intersection.

You do not encourage someone to wade through traffic to get a handout.

You do not encourage someone to remain at a heavily traffic area to risk distracting drivers that could drive into him or cause a collision which could also hit him.

I didn't have cash on me, only a debit card, so I handed my to go bag and a gatorade to my partner and told her to give it to the homeless man, literally right outside of our window. She does.

I'm getting the impression that nobody waded anywhere, or actually stood in any roads.

Standing on the side of a road near a stoplight is pretty common for the homeless. Not giving the guy food isn't going to stop him from standing there. Nor is giving it to him going to convince him it's a great place, since that's true of any high-traffic area for someone seeking handouts.

As for distraction, if he was just standing there with a sign, I don't think that's any more distracting than the sleeping drivers, the billboards, or those giant neon inflatable things that wave around, all of which I see all over highway exits.

 

[VentMedic]

I'm getting the impression that nobody waded anywhere, or actually stood in any roads.

So we were driving to our call and got off the interstate, waiting at the light.

Why do you not see a safety problem with standing on a road way?

If a person in a car in the far lane offers the person something, do you not think they are going to go for it? How many of these homeless may also be under the influence of some drug/alcohol or mentally impaired?

Did you not learn any type of roadway safety anywhere even in your elementary school education?

It is difficult to enforce these safety rules because well-meaning do gooders keep the handouts coming and encouraging these individuals to put their safety at risk.

You are not doing them any favors by encouraging them to become road kill.