Defunding Police: Impact on EMS?

[E tank]

The other thing about this is the use of the phrase "defund police departments". What that sounds like and what (I hope) is meant are very different. If that means using police resources for more creative public safety that uses cops more reasonably like, for example, a sort of "mental heath ambulance", then I'm all for that.

But that isn't where this is coming from. It's from groups wanting retribution applied across police departments at large.

 

[mgr22]

The other thing about this is the use of the phrase "defund police departments". What that sounds like and what (I hope) is meant are very different. If that means using police resources for more creative public safety that uses cops more reasonably like, for example, a sort of "mental heath ambulance", then I'm all for that.

But that isn't where this is coming from. It's from groups wanting retribution applied across police departments at large.

I agree. "Defunding" is stronger than what I think most proponents mean. "Examining" or "re-evaluating" would be better choices.

 

[FiremanMike]

The problem is, most departments run pretty lean as it is, not a lot of carryover. Decreasing funding will lead to decreased officers on the road, and the can of worms that this brings..

 

[DragonClaw]

Coming back to this. This system isn't designed for community health or mental health of the individual.

Prisons are merely punitive. Once you're out, then what? Getting hired or finding a place to live is harder. Haven't you served your time and paid your debt to society? Yet the punishment continues. Either let people out as full members of society because they've regained trust, or don't let them out or if they're that much of a threat, execute them. Sounds harsher than what I mean it to.

Having had CPS called on my family when I was a child, multiple times, even though there was rampant physical and mental abuse, nothing was done. They are useless and a waste of space and taxpayer money. Having stupidly forgotten the incompetence of government systems, I called them as an adult. My "anonymous" report was basically read verbatim and the crapshow that followed was its own punishment for forgetting that lesson.

A neighbor of mine is a cop. He used to be a corrections officer and didn't have a weapon. He had to use his mind, his words, to settle things. He carried this into LE and regularly de-escalates situations and makes sure people know they're being listened to.

Most cops don't know how to do this. Many of them antagonize the situation without knowing they have other options. But when the only tool in your toolbox is a hammer....

I don't think cops need that hammer and that niche is being filled by agencies of all kinds and people who mashed a square bung into a round hole and shrug when it leaks.

Actual defunding of police is a terrible idea.

Prioritization of funds? Sure. Let's go over that budget.

But the truth is, there's no real large scale agency to answer these mental health calls. Everyone has their own idea who and how it's handled.

Just wait until the ambulance stages for 3 hours for the scene to be safe. If I worked 911, I wouldn't just roll in because the gunshots are 30 minutes apart instead of 2.

Protestors have destroyed non LEO responder vehicles, various rigs, crews have been hurt or put in danger. I'm not sure if any died.

Anyone in a uniform is a target and if there's no blue line between the angry and the mostly unarmed responders? Naw.

 

[DrParasite]

Coming back to this. This system isn't designed for community health or mental health of the individual.

which is a very true statement, yet law enforcement has been tasked (sometimes willingly, sometimes not) as the defacto group responsible for community health or mental health of the individual (hence why they can commit someone, but EMS can't).

Prisons are merely punitive. Once you're out, then what? Getting hired or finding a place to live is harder. Haven't you served your time and paid your debt to society? Yet the punishment continues. Either let people out as full members of society because they've regained trust, or don't let them out or if they're that much of a threat, execute them. Sounds harsher than what I mean it to.

Prisons are NOT meant to be punitive. however, you are correct, that the prison system is more designed to protect society than the actual prisoner. And I know this sounds harsh, but actions have consequences, and you can't fault an employee or landlord for favoring someone who hasn't been convicted of a crime over someone who has. harsh, maybe, but that's the truth. and it's really really hard to execute someone in the US, even if they are a huge threat.

And putting it quite bluntly, prison is not supposed to be nice. it shouldn't be a pleasant experience. actions have consequences, especially if you violate the laws of society. Should you be able to be productive in prison? sure, why not? complete your GED, earn a college degree, learn a new skill, get some counseling, and yes, the idea is after you have served your time, you come out a better person, and don't repeat the same mistakes.

lets also not forget, LEOs don't make the laws, they just enforce them. if you have a problem with the laws, you need to contact your legislative representative. but just because you think a crime is minor, or the law shouldn't be enforced, doesn't mean the cop shouldn't do his or her job.

Having had CPS called on my family when I was a child, multiple times, even though there was rampant physical and mental abuse, nothing was done. They are useless and a waste of space and taxpayer money. Having stupidly forgotten the incompetence of government systems, I called them as an adult. My "anonymous" report was basically read verbatim and the crapshow that followed was its own punishment for forgetting that lesson.

and yet, that is what those who want to defund the police aim to have happen; have other entities handle situations that were previously handled by PD. and BTW, CPS is one of the hardest jobs out there. their caseload is enormous, they pay isn't nearly enough, and no one is ever happy with what they do. and they don't have the resources to do the job well, because all too often, the resources don't exist. Still, sorry to hear you had to go through that.

A neighbor of mine is a cop. He used to be a corrections officer and didn't have a weapon. He had to use his mind, his words, to settle things. He carried this into LE and regularly de-escalates situations and makes sure people know they're being listened to.

Most cops don't know how to do this. Many of them antagonize the situation without knowing they have other options. But when the only tool in your toolbox is a hammer....

this is an example of you not knowing what you are talking about. I bet your neighbor cop always has his gun on him when he is in uniform. and I would imagine he carries a firearm when he's off duty too. No cop starts his shift saying he is looking forward to shooting someone. most cops don't want to have to draw their gun. heck, 95% of cops in the US have never fired their weapon outside of range time. Most cops don't antagonize people (but yes, there are jerks who do, just like in EMS, the fire service, healthcare, corporate America, you name it), but when your life is threatened, you have the right to defend yourself, esp when verbal de-escalation tactics won't work.

I don't think cops need that hammer and that niche is being filled by agencies of all kinds and people who mashed a square bung into a round hole and shrug when it leaks.

I'll make you a deal: Go become a cop. a uniformed LEO. and do everything that cops are expected to do. and never carry your firearm. for a year. for a month. I bet after a week, you will revise that statement.

But the truth is, there's no real large scale agency to answer these mental health calls. Everyone has their own idea who and how it's handled.

see above regarding PD being the catchall for when no one else can do it.

Just wait until the ambulance stages for 3 hours for the scene to be safe. If I worked 911, I wouldn't just roll in because the gunshots are 30 minutes apart instead of 2.

and yet, you don't think cops should carry firearms, because the only tool in the toolbox is a hammer?

Protestors have destroyed non LEO responder vehicles, various rigs, crews have been hurt or put in danger. I'm not sure if any died.

6 cops have died since the protests started. usually due to gunfire. 3 of whom are black. hundreds, if not thousands, of cops have been injured. Several other cops have been shot, but survived according to https://www.foxnews.com/us/george-floyd-protests-rioters-police-shot-hit-and-run

Want to know what happens when you disband the PD, as Minneapolis wants to do? Well, East Pittsburg did just that.... https://pittsburgh.cbslocal.com/2019/07/21/east-pittsburgh-police-response/ https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/e...department-now-residents-regret-the-decision/

OK, this was waaaaay too long of a post, but there were a lot of erroneous statements made in the previous post. But yes, if you remove responsibilities from the PD, and assign them elsewhere, it makes sense to re-allocate those funds elsewhere.

 

[OALAEHO]

I look at my state's (Michigan) response to Covid and the horrific results. To mandate any change to policing will be another disaster.

There are two glaring differences in policing, Urban vs. rural. Call volume, in many ways dictates what the outcome will be. An urban officer does not have the time for de-escalation that a rural officer does. That said, a rural officer does not have the same availability of back up, and considerable windshield time regardless. Same situation with Fire/EMS.

Throwing money at the issue will not work either, just look at our education system. DOE wants more money and new schools, they get it and test scores remain low. Bad teachers rewarded the same as good teachers. Common-Core is another disaster.

Bad cops are pretty easy to identify, but it is professional suicide for another cop to point them out. I know of one small town chief that kept his job after tasing an 18 yr old senior because the kid wanted to know what it felt like. Same chief was finally fired after a State Police investigation several years later for insisting a father who feared his child was being molested by the step-father, pay for surveillance equipment to investigate. Bad cops are bad cops. This former chief is now director of security for a large insurance carrier. How does this happen? By never charging him with a crime, just settling for certification forfeiture, aka retirement.

I see our courts constantly plea bargin to lesser crimes, which sends the wrong message. They say jail overcrowding, and avoiding expensive, lengthy trials are the issue. Well, do the crime, serve less time is not working either. Coupled with this are the seriously reduced bed space for EDPs. In Michigan, you are taken to an ED for med clearance. In my 5 years working in an ED, these patients are often admitted for observation in the same hospital due to an insurance issue, or lack of beds at an appropriate facility. The EDP is not charged for any crimes because of this status. No, I am not advocating jailing EDPs. However, those with the capacity to know right from wrong should not get a free pass. That said, what jail is equipped to handle them.

We all know of many more examples. So how to do you fix it? There is no umbrella capable, and not enough band aids available. More laws and regulations are not the answer. More training is always welcome, but that doesn't solve the problem of a bad cop staying on the job. Civilian oversight is not the answer as those boards have been around for years.

In the end, EMS will be forced to deal with more situations that they are not properly equipped to handle until the outrage mob can find reason to target EMS. Then the entire profession will be vilified in the court of public opinion, just like law enforcement.

 

[Peak]

and BTW, CPS is one of the hardest jobs out there. their caseload is enormous, they pay isn't nearly enough, and no one is ever happy with what they do. and they don't have the resources to do the job well, because all too often, the resources don't exist.

I wouldn’t be that defensive of CPS.

I’ve had several interactions with multiple agencies in several states where CPS had done nothing. I then contacted law enforcement or the district attorneys office who then pursued (and typically got convictions) on those cases. More than a few times I then got nasty calls from said protective agencies that I essentially went over their head, even though they decided nothing needed to be done and there was clear neglect or abuse.

I’ve taken care of too many kids who ended up dead or close to it who had several prior CPS cases with nothing done.

The few CPS groups that I’ve dealt with and have done a great job have all had good ties with law enforcement.

 

[OALAEHO]

I wouldn’t be that defensive of CPS.

I’ve had several interactions with multiple agencies in several states where CPS had done nothing. I then contacted law enforcement or the district attorneys office who then pursued (and typically got convictions) on those cases. More than a few times I then got nasty calls from said protective agencies that I essentially went over their head, even though they decided nothing needed to be done and there was clear neglect or abuse.

I’ve taken care of too many kids who ended up dead or close to it who had several prior CPS cases with nothing done.

The few CPS groups that I’ve dealt with and have done a great job have all had good ties with law enforcement.

And the criminal level negligence by nursing home staff that dump their near death residents at the local ED. Trying to get those cases the attention they need is an exercise in futility.

 

[OceanBossMan263]

The good: maybe police will actually be available to prioritize response to more meaningful crimes, whatver the interpretation of that is. Maybe an agency better suited to deal with certain issues is tasked with handling them.

The bad: this is government we are talking about. They will probably just have another agency inefficiently handle cases, or hand it off to another inappropriate agency, like deciding that EMS is now responsible for all mental aided and homeless complaints.

The ugly: pulling out of dealing with quality of life issues and visible community involvement or outreach programs. Funding is tight and some programs that lead to positive community interaction depend on every dime. Remove cops from those roles and now the community only knows them in an enforcement role. Or worse, it becomes "nobody shows up until someone gets shot" because cops aren't free to deal with quality of life issues, then they're the big bad Enforcement agency that doesn't care if my community goes to hell

Evaluation of spending and operations is always warranted. What's being done in NYC- just yanking 1 Billion from the police budget with seemingly no plan in place- is not

 

[DrParasite]

I’ve had several interactions with multiple agencies in several states where CPS had done nothing. I then contacted law enforcement or the district attorneys office who then pursued (and typically got convictions) on those cases. More than a few times I then got nasty calls from said protective agencies that I essentially went over their head, even though they decided nothing needed to be done and there was clear neglect or abuse.

I briefly dated a girl who worked for CPS... she told me some stories that convinced me that I could never do her job.

While I am sure there are plenty of failures in the CPS system, I stand by my opinion of them. And if you go over there head and the DA gets a conviction, well, one would think the DA would then be investigating CPS for failing to do their job....

 

[DragonClaw]

And I know this sounds harsh, but actions have consequences, and you can't fault an employee or landlord for favoring someone who hasn't been convicted of a crime over someone who has. harsh, maybe, but that's the truth. and it's really really hard to execute someone in the US, even if they are a huge threat.

And putting it quite bluntly, prison is not supposed to be nice. it shouldn't be a pleasant experience. actions have consequences, especially if you violate the laws of society. Should you be able to be productive in prison? sure, why not? complete your GED, earn a college degree, learn a new skill, get some counseling, and yes, the idea is after you have served your time, you come out a better person, and don't repeat the same mistakes.

Yes. But does the multi-generational "That's what you get" mentality get us anywhere long term? Justice vs compassion. Yes, you're in prison. It's not fun. But once you've done your time, you should be free again. I'm also not saying a private business shouldn't be able refuse to hire anyone with criminal history or any other reason. It's just hard for them. And if things look impossible for them to reintegrate, they won't.

lets also not forget, LEOs don't make the laws, they just enforce them. if you have a problem with the laws, you need to contact your legislative representative. but just because you think a crime is minor, or the law shouldn't be enforced, doesn't mean the cop shouldn't do his or her job. and yet, that is what those who want to defund the police aim to have happen; have other entities handle situations that were previously handled by PD. and BTW, CPS is one of the hardest jobs out there.

I haven't forgotten that. And I know that they should enforce the laws we have. CPR is hard and is harder with idiots behind the curtain.

their caseload is enormous, they pay isn't nearly enough, and no one is ever happy with what they do. and they don't have the resources to do the job well, because all too often, the resources don't exist. Still, sorry to hear you had to go through that.this is an example of you not knowing what you are talking about.

So because it's a hard job, it doesn't matter how they screw up and they should be given more power? They literally read my "anonymous" report to someone else.

I bet your neighbor cop always has his gun on him when he is in uniform. and I would imagine he carries a firearm when he's off duty too. No cop starts his shift saying he is looking forward to shooting someone. most cops don't want to have to draw their gun. heck, 95% of cops in the US have never fired their weapon outside of range time. Most cops don't antagonize people (but yes, there are jerks who do, just like in EMS, the fire service, healthcare, corporate America, you name it), but when your life is threatened, you have the right to defend yourself, esp when verbal de-escalation tactics won't work.

Why do you act like I think there aren't situations where people need to be shot? There 100% are. Cops need guns. The end. I'm not saying most, just that he sees it on his end.

And you're wrong. He doesn't carry off duty. That surprised me.

I'll make you a deal: Go become a cop. a uniformed LEO. and do everything that cops are expected to do. and never carry your firearm. for a year. for a month. I bet after a week, you will revise that statement.
see above regarding PD being the catchall for when no one else can do it.and yet, you don't think cops should carry firearms, because the only tool in the toolbox is a hammer?

This I'm actually laughing at. Haha laughing. . You make my goals with me a "deal". Ever since I couldn't get into the military, I've been aiming for police. I didn't think mentally or physically I was in a position to do it. I need to be more mature than I am now.

And my current EMS position allows me to grow and experience the world and help me be that person I need to be.

I love medicine, but .... I can't wait for that day I swear in with that badge. Every time I see a bad cop, I know I need to be a good one.

Even now my friends asked me if I was wavering on my goals because of everything, but it's only solidified me.

Again. Cops are most taught how to secure a scene and win that fight so they and their partner goes home. They don't get massive training for psych pts and mental health calls.

They do need guns yes. You've mistaken what I've said. Made your own conclusions on what I've said.

6 cops have died since the protests started. usually due to gunfire. 3 of whom are black. hundreds, if not thousands, of cops have been injured. Several other cops have been shot, but survived according to https://www.foxnews.com/us/george-floyd-protests-rioters-police-shot-hit-and-run

Want to know what happens when you disband the PD, as Minneapolis wants to do? Well, East Pittsburg did just that.... https://pittsburgh.cbslocal.com/2019/07/21/east-pittsburgh-police-response/ https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/e...department-now-residents-regret-the-decision/

Again, I'm not arguing this?


??

And I was already thinking of Pittsburgh. It was the first thing that came to mind. Including the quote about them not seeing a police presence in the street and why aren't they learning the streets?

OK, this was waaaaay too long of a post, but there were a lot of erroneous statements made in the previous post. But yes, if you remove responsibilities from the PD, and assign them elsewhere, it makes sense to re-allocate those funds elsewhere.

It was mostly filled with erroneous conculsions. I feel like we're more on the same page than not

 

[DrParasite]

That's ok, you might have misspoke when you said this:

A neighbor of mine is a cop. He used to be a corrections officer and didn't have a weapon. He had to use his mind, his words, to settle things. He carried this into LE and regularly de-escalates situations and makes sure people know they're being listened to.

Most cops don't know how to do this. Many of them antagonize the situation without knowing they have other options. But when the only tool in your toolbox is a hammer....

I don't think cops need that hammer and that niche is being filled by agencies of all kinds and people who mashed a square bung into a round hole and shrug when it leaks.

So when you start off talking about your cop buddy who didn't need a weapon because he "regularly de-escalates situations and makes sure people know they're being listened to" and then transition to "when the only tool in your toolbox is a hammer" and then "I don't think cops need that hammer," going from your buddy doesn't need a gun, and transition to a gun is the only tool cops have, and then i don't think cops need the gun (esp since my buddy doesn't), your messages get convoluted, and erroneous conclusions are drawn based on what you said.

But it's all good, I will say there was a communication error, but it has been resolved to everyone's satisfaction.

 

[RocketMedic]

Having worked more than a few shifts and calls in a minority-majority urban neighborhood with relatively high crime rates, I can safely say that the presence of law enforcement did not consistently make things better, but that good constables helped save a few lives by getting involved with CPR.

 

[RocketMedic]

I think a lot of the “fat” to be cut from the police budget is going to come from the patrol side and what social services they do try. It should come from the drug, SWAT and vice squads, but priorities...

 

[ffemt8978]

And that's enough if this one.