Coronavirus Discussion Thread

[E tank]

True, but I think even a few months of debilitating symptoms, without knowing if or when there's an endpoint, is enough to dispel the notion that COVID outcomes are binary, and that getting infected is no big deal for 98% of the population.

I think this infection has taken on a kind of mythical status in that when events occur in the post recovery course (or the acute phase for that matter) it's the first time we've ever seen it...post severe pneumonia of any etiology can be a righteous bi**h. Deep vein thrombosis, loculated empyema (pleural pus pockets)requiring surgery, months of rehab, etc...this stuff is so common and when it's because of influenza A, no one bats an eyelash....C19 is obviously an order of magnitude more contagious and that means there will be more critically ill people with it, but the pneumonia it causes is pneumonia.

 

[mgr22]

I think this infection has taken on a kind of mythical status in that when events occur in the post recovery course (or the acute phase for that matter) it's the first time we've ever seen it...post severe pneumonia of any etiology can be a righteous bi**h. Deep vein thrombosis, loculated empyema (pleural pus pockets)requiring surgery, months of rehab, etc...this stuff is so common and when it's because of influenza A, no one bats an eyelash....C19 is obviously an order of magnitude more contagious and that means there will be more critically ill people with it, but the pneumonia it causes is pneumonia.

I agree that long-term effects of the flu aren't discussed as much right now as long-term effects of COVID-19. What I'm more concerned about is the assumption that people who don't die from COVID will be fine. Until recently, there's been little publicity about a third group of COVID sufferers: those who don't die but aren't fine. Such knowledge is helpful in assessing the value of vaccines and even masks.

 

[Summit]

post severe pneumonia of any etiology can be a righteous bi**h. Deep vein thrombosis, loculated empyema (pleural pus pockets)requiring surgery, months of rehab, etc...this stuff is so common and when it's because of influenza A, no one bats an eyelash

I've always thought that it was absolutely insane that we as a society don't bat an eyelash at the incredible toll of seasonal flu. Less than half of adults get vaccinated. That is bonkers.

 

[Carlos Danger]

I agree that long-term effects of the flu aren't discussed as much right now as long-term effects of COVID-19. What I'm more concerned about is the assumption that people who don't die from COVID will be fine. Until recently, there's been little publicity about a third group of COVID sufferers: those who don't die but aren't fine. Such knowledge is helpful in assessing the value of vaccines and even masks.

Fatality rate is really the only metric we have, and as E tank said, post-complications of pneumonia from all causes can be significant and costly and unpleasant, but are rarely permanent. COVID does not appear to be unique in this way.

 

[Carlos Danger]

I've always thought that it was absolutely insane that we as a society don't bat an eyelash at the incredible toll of seasonal flu. Less than half of adults get vaccinated. That is bonkers.

On a macro level I agree that it seems a little bonkers, but you have to remember that society is made up of individuals for whom choosing not to get a flu shot may be a rational choice. People hate getting shots. Lots of folks report feeling like crap for a few days after getting a flu shot. Few of us personally know anyone who got really sick (nervermind died) from the flu. We are all aware of the fact that some years, the effectiveness of the vaccine is very low. More and more people are aware of the potentially perverse incentives that the pharm industry responds to, and distrust our major institutions in general. Personally, I’ve only had the flu once, and it was a year that I had been vaccinated.

Add all that up, and it’s no wonder why so many individuals elect not to get the flu vaccine.

Edit: most of this is also true of the coronavirus vaccines

 

[RedBlanketRunner]

Not exactly binary. Select one or more from the list.
1 Fake. Just the seasonal flu plus media sensationalism
2 Worse than the flu but overblown
3 Significantly higher mortality rate -> US 30,000 to 55,000 seasonal flu deaths 2019, C-19: 306,000 so far
4 Financial-economic impact much higher
5 Quality of overall patient care significantly reduced as care facilities are overwhelmed.
6 Long term debilitating effects which may be permanent appear to be significantly higher than seasonal flu
7 Social impact
8 Misinformation effects

Latest U.S & World News: Trusted Source - WorldNewsEra

worldnewsera.com

 

[Summit]

@Carlos Danger what you've identified a behaviorist explanation for why society doesn't take flu seriously. I agree with your assessment of the why.

However, it should be used as roadmap to shift the paradigm of perception. Yes people rationalize that they haven't had bad flu, or that they don't know people that do, or they worry about Big Pharma (which is a valid concern in general but not realistically so with flu vaccine which is small $). The human and financial impact of flu is huge. I hope people can understand this in the future and perhaps mRNA vaccines will allow a shorter decision to production cycle on the seasonal flu vaccine to allow better targeting of predominant strains while also allowing protection against a wider variety of strains. Doing so would make the flu vaccine more reliable. If every year was as efficacious as it was last year, perhaps folks would be more keen to get it.

 

[Bullets]

I'm of a similar mind at the moment. If we'd done MUCH more to protect the vulnerable (and we knew basically who was most at risk early-on), and kept protecting them throughout the entire time, we'd probably be in an overall better place now.

That and providing accurate info as we know it at the time...

The sadder part is, who among us (the healthcare community at large) didnt know this long before 2020? How long does one need to work in this industry to learn that LTC is a horrible, depressing, isolating place easily ripped apart by infections, where patient ratios are high and caregiver skill low. COVID just shined a spotlight for the general public to learn what we already knew. How many of us ran calls in a nursing home wracked with influenza?

We could have been ready

 

[RedBlanketRunner]

The sadder part is, who among us (the healthcare community at large) didnt know this long before 2020?

News in the US and Europe. In third world countries it's the rule: never rely on governments or authorities. CYA and your family. Healthcare facilities are there to shovel antibiotics your way and a place to die. Spending all day, or even two in a crowded waiting room is the norm. A place to contract diseases - best avoided.
An odd little irony is people are much more independent out in the boonies and prefer self or community reliance. So in order to avoid being told what to do, they do things like wearing masks. An extra irony, as an example, in the news almost every day. Down in Bangkok people protesting the Monarchy which can get an automatic 5 years in prison, but take a look at the pictures of the protesters. Just about everyone wearing masks. More common sense than developed first world countries.

 

[Fezman92]

So how quickly is everyone going to act like that this crisis is over now that we have a vaccine?

 

[SandpitMedic]

Since someone mentioned money. Rest assured. There are companies and individuals who are going to get very, very rich from COVID-19.

 

[DrParasite]

So how quickly is everyone going to act like that this crisis is over now that we have a vaccine?

Isn't that the solution though? once we have a vaccine that works, give it to everyone who can take it, herd immunity the rest, and the big bad virus can't hurt us anymore?

now, if you mean the crisis of understaffing and underfunding of EMS, that has existed for decades. public health's lack of funding? nothing new. the fact that our LTC/college campus's/prisons/any place where large numbers of people live in relatively small locations are breeding grounds for disease? not news to me. our heathcare system's routine lack of resources to handle a long term surge? yep, been that way for longer than we all want to admit. the question will be, what is going to be done about all these crises, or will it simply be forgotten next year?

 

[RedBlanketRunner]

They are now associating numerous neurological disorders with the virus. Lapses of cognitive ability appear to be frequent post recovery.

 

[Fezman92]

“the question will be, what is going to be done about all these crises, or will it simply be forgotten next year?”

Nothing will be done because this is America and collectively this country has a very short term memory. Hell these issues have been ignored during this entire crisis.

 

[E tank]

Since someone mentioned money. Rest assured. There are companies and individuals who are going to get very, very rich from COVID-19.

We'll if Pfizer and Moderna are in folk's 401K's, PERS etc...let's hope so....

 

[SandpitMedic]

We'll if Pfizer and Moderna are in folk's 401K's, PERS etc...let's hope so....

That is not what I meant.
I too hold stock in said companies, but I don't place the pennies I will make above my moral objection to billionaires profiteering, which is sure to happen with this virus, the vaccine(s), response, etc.

Nothing against you brother. I just think that if this is supposedly the extinction level event so many believe it is, and there is dire need to save so many lives, then perhaps their motivations should be a little more altruistic. I'm also a capitalist, but there is a line.

 

[cruiseforever]

Since someone mentioned money. Rest assured. There are companies and individuals who are going to get very, very rich from COVID-19.

This statement is true to just about anything that causes misery to others. Disease, War, natural disasters, civil unrest

 

[E tank]

That is not what I meant.
I too hold stock in said companies, but I don't place the pennies I will make above my moral objection to billionaires profiteering, which is sure to happen with this virus, the vaccine(s), response, etc.

Nothing against you brother. I just think that if this is supposedly the extinction level event so many believe it is, and there is dire need to save so many lives, then perhaps their motivations should be a little more altruistic. I'm also a capitalist, but there is a line.

I get it...but...that 2 vaccines were developed in the time frame they have is nothing short of monumental...a feat, really, unprecedented in history. And it was precisely because it was a private sector venture with minimized regulatory interference. An effort like this costs money. It is because the wealthy interest holders had an interest (and, come on, there isn't anyone that wants so many sick people) that this was possible. No other system in the world is capable of what our system did. And I'm OK with that.

 

[SandpitMedic]

I get it...but...that 2 vaccines were developed in the time frame they have is nothing short of monumental...a feat, really, unprecedented in history. And it was precisely because it was a private sector venture with minimized regulatory interference. An effort like this costs money. It is because the wealthy interest holders had an interest (and, come on, there isn't anyone that wants so many sick people) that this was possible. No other system in the world is capable of what our system did. And I'm OK with that.

Monumental... what’s a better word for monumental when kids start coming out with webbed feet?

mRNA vaccines are a relatively new technology. The safety profile of this vaccine is not fully understood. In the most layman’s terms I can think of right now... It is artificial chromosomes that go in to cells to copy the chromosomal data and pump out proteins for the body to recognize the “not self” and mount an immune response.

There are incredibly limited studies on them, and they’ve never been utilized in humans. The studies we have on the vaccines are mostly all by the manufacturers (who stand to gain billions but will be sheltered if it goes bad) in which most of them are still in Phase 1 or barely into Phase 2.

It might work. Chances are it will work. But we will see, and what happens when desperation and greed combine with unseen biological sciences? We all have front row tickets.

Don’t get me wrong- I hope it works with little repercussions, and that it saves lives, and that it ends this pandemic so we can all get back to normal life. Like poorly run SNFs, other corporate greed, and corrupted leadership . Color me as a cautiously optimistic skeptic.

 

[E tank]

Monumental... what’s a better word for monumental when kids start coming out with webbed feet?

mRNA vaccines are a relatively new technology. The safety profile of this vaccine is not fully understood. In the most layman’s terms I can think of right now... It is artificial chromosomes that go in to cells to copy the chromosomal data and pump out proteins for the body to recognize the “not self” and mount an immune response.

There are incredibly limited studies on them, and they’ve never been utilized in humans. The studies we have on the vaccines are mostly all by the manufacturers (who stand to gain billions but will be sheltered if it goes bad) in which most of them are still in Phase 1 or barely into Phase 2.

It might work. Chances are it will work. But we will see, and what happens when desperation and greed combine with unseen biological sciences? We all have front row tickets.

Don’t get me wrong- I hope it works with little repercussions, and that it saves lives, and that it ends this pandemic so we can all get back to normal life. Like poorly run SNFs, other corporate greed, and corrupted leadership . Color me as a cautiously optimistic skeptic.

well...if you have any better ideas, I'm sure they'd be all ears....