"Cop Drops"

[mycrofft]

Silver's NIH study cited above then supports grab and go as a treatment mode for trauma. Don't be afraid to question paradigms or statistics.

dbo789, Good Sam generally does not apply to people on the clock, and it can apply to more than first aid if the Samaritan is trained and equipped. coincidentally, above it. If an untrained public member threw you into their car and you were paralyzed, (we had a slightly similar case in Calif not too long ago), and you acted in good faith (thought there was a danger that required transport) and knew no better (no first aid training, or suspected other medical complications requiring go-fast treatment), then you might be spared as well.
A LE officer on the job would by definition not be in "Good Sam" mode.

 

[Veneficus]

I suspect the chances of c-spine injures for penetrating injuries are d@mn near nil...

I would be interested in seeing a study on cops without immobilization outcomes and EMS with...

I bet I already know the answer though

Let's face it. In many areas, cops will be on scene and at the hospital before EMS.

If the patient is truly in a time sensitive life threatening situation, the police I think are a better alternative.

 

[Medic2409]

Let's face it. In many areas, cops will be on scene and at the hospital before EMS.

If the patient is truly in a time sensitive life threatening situation, the police I think are a better alternative.

Especially in my area, where the ambo's are forced to go the speed limit, and only the speed limit.

 

[bigbaldguy]

Sounds like it would save a ton of time. Not only are the police on scene well ahead of ambos but lets face it if it's a shooting we generally have to stage as well. I've staged for 30+ minutes waiting for a scene to be declared "safe". This eliminates what 10 to 15 minutes? That's a lot of time in a patient with a major bleed.

 

[Veneficus]

Especially in my area, where the ambo's are forced to go the speed limit, and only the speed limit.

The speed limit has very little to do with it.

It has been known for several years that a lights and siren response or transport doesn't save significant time, much less make a difference in most outcomes.

The insurance institute of America had staistics dating back to 2002 that lights and sirens increases the chance of an accident 300%. (they didn't even count wake effect accidents then)

The specifics of driving a car are also very different from a top heavy box.

Were it up to me, the ambulance would also have to obey all traffic signals and laws without exception.

Perhaps if there was better mandatory driving education for EMS my opinion might be different.

 

[Shishkabob]

That just ignoring the fault of the other drivers on the road with inattention, inability to hear due to volume of their stereo, and just plain old not caring about the emergency vehicles, with some people even purposefully trying to slow them down.

 

[Akulahawk]

Silver's NIH study cited above then supports grab and go as a treatment mode for trauma. Don't be afraid to question paradigms or statistics.

dbo789, Good Sam generally does not apply to people on the clock, and it can apply to more than first aid if the Samaritan is trained and equipped. coincidentally, above it. If an untrained public member threw you into their car and you were paralyzed, (we had a slightly similar case in Calif not too long ago), and you acted in good faith (thought there was a danger that required transport) and knew no better (no first aid training, or suspected other medical complications requiring go-fast treatment), then you might be spared as well.
A LE officer on the job would by definition not be in "Good Sam" mode.

That LEO may, however, be protected by governmental immunity, if his/her employer authorizes transport in emergent situations. In California, with regard to "rescues," the lay public has been specifically covered for that as well. The court case that threw-out rescue as a GS covered event spawned a legislative fix.

 

[Akulahawk]

That just ignoring the fault of the other drivers on the road with inattention, inability to hear due to volume of their stereo, and just plain old not caring about the emergency vehicles, with some people even purposefully trying to slow them down.

I've seen people ignore my ambulance, only to part like the Red Sea and make lots of room when CHP or other LE car provides an escort. It's like LE is the traffic Moses...

 

[Akulahawk]

The only other concern I have with this is how fast the officers are likely to be driving. Are cops better trained at high speed driving than we are? Generally yes, but if fear and adrenaline take over and the cop is hitting 100 in an urban area weaving in out of traffic, that is also not a good scenario.

Yes. They are given extremely detailed and thorough training in driving at high speeds. Their training is far better than what EMS gets. EVOC is just the beginning for them. They also learn how to fight with their car...h34r:

 

[DPM]

Yes. They are given extremely detailed and thorough training in driving at high speeds. Their training is far better than what EMS gets. EVOC is just the beginning for them. They also learn how to fight with their car...h34r:

I fight with my car too... but my car is 18 and a total B*stard

 

[DrParasite]

This is not new at all. I was told that Philly PD has vans that drive around picking up shooting victims all night. It was described to me as scoop the injured in a reeves, throw the injured in the back, drive fast to the hospital, and drop off on the ER stretcher. It's probably been going on for at least the past decade.

Philly EMS is so overworked, an 8 minute response is a pipe dream on busy nights. The FD circle of death is very prevalent (and articles have been written about it), so all too often there is no ambulance available.

IIRC, the studies show homeboy taxi has a higher save rate than EMS, because it's all scoop and run, and homeboys don't jerk around on scene starting an IV. as my PHTLS instructor told me, these injured need bright lights and cold steel, not a paramedic.

Now if Philly would put on more ambulances, it would help with the problem. or triage calls better. or actually staff enough units to handle the volume. or stop being abused by the FD for run numbers, and not funding them properly to do the job. But again, why would any of the city leaders want to do that?

 

[AnthonyM83]

Were it up to me, the ambulance would also have to obey all traffic signals and laws without exception.

There are others who feel that way, too.

I can't support that for my local area, though.

A 5 minute "code 3" run can take 30 minutes in local traffic. Actually, it's taken a coworker *25 minutes* to go one large city block at prime rush hour. Going code 3 at 10mph under the speed limit, it would have taken may 50 seconds...

 

[DrParasite]

Were it up to me, the ambulance would also have to obey all traffic signals and laws without exception.

which would be great, except than everyone would complain more that the ambulance took too long, and people died as a result. remember, right or wrong, response times is what people use as a benchmark for how good an emergency response agency is.

 

[medicsb]

This is not new at all. I was told that Philly PD has vans that drive around picking up shooting victims all night. It was described to me as scoop the injured in a reeves, throw the injured in the back, drive fast to the hospital, and drop off on the ER stretcher. It's probably been going on for at least the past decade.

That is some interesting Philly folk-lore. Though some PPD vans have reeves, most of the victims are transported in the back of a patrol car.

Anyhow, I'd be curious to know exactly when this practice started, but PPD used to take people to the hospital before PFD did EMS and I believe they did it for quite a while after PFD started up their EMS. Chances are that they have always done this and that the reason that it has endured is because "thats the way they do things". Also, I think the infamous episode of COPS was from 1992.

 

[silver]

That is some interesting Philly folk-lore. Though some PPD vans have reeves, most of the victims are transported in the back of a patrol car.

Anyhow, I'd be curious to know exactly when this practice started, but PPD used to take people to the hospital before PFD did EMS and I believe they did it for quite a while after PFD started up their EMS. Chances are that they have always done this and that the reason that it has endured is because "thats the way they do things". Also, I think the infamous episode of COPS was from 1992.

The article I posted states that nearly two decades ago (as of 2010) the city implemented a policy authorizing police to transport penetrating trauma.

 

[medicsb]

The article I posted states that nearly two decades ago (as of 2010) the city implemented a policy authorizing police to transport penetrating trauma.

Yeah, I saw that. However, with this being Philadelphia, something tells me that the PD doesn't necessarily need a policy to do anything. (Though they probably have tons of policies telling them what not to do.) Maybe they did start doing it just 2 decades ago... or they were always doing it to some degree and someone decided to make it officially condoned at some point. Basically I'm really skeptical that this started with a policy.

 

[Veneficus]

Yeah, I saw that. However, with this being Philadelphia, something tells me that the PD doesn't necessarily need a policy to do anything. (Though they probably have tons of policies telling them what not to do.) Maybe they did start doing it just 2 decades ago... or they were always doing it to some degree and someone decided to make it officially condoned at some point. Basically I'm really skeptical that this started with a policy.

I know a retired police chief from my home area that said during the 70s most of the EMS was performed by PD, because many of the FDs were volunteer, but there were cops on duty 24/7.

He also said that it was probably one of the biggest mistakes in terms of public relations and perception PDs ever made by ditching it on fire as soon as the professional depts started forming.

If PD provided EMS is one region during that era, it is not unrealistic it was done elsewhere too.

If I am shot and a cop is on sceen, please put me in the cruiser and drive me to the hospital rather than wait for an ambulance to respond.

 

[EpiEMS]

I'd like to see an article or two on homeboy ambulances, if anybody has found any.

 

[Medic2409]

Might as well do away with EMS as a whole, eh?

 

[Veneficus]

Might as well do away with EMS as a whole, eh?

No, it is just a matter of realizing when EMS has intervention that will help and when it will not.

There have been numerous articles published on BLS having better outcomes in major trauma than ALS.

It is usually attributed to rapid transport, though I am willing to bet there are also a few cases of excessive fluid therapy with ALS.

In a truly time sensitive injury, transport without intervention or minimal intervention to definitive intervention is more important than waiting for response, packaging, and transport.

look at cardiac arrest, the most important intervention is immediate bystander CPR. Showing up in less than 8:59 90% of the time isn't going to replace that.