Brooklyn EMT Cleared Of Wrong Doing

[jediwill]

Ok guys....originally read this story awhile back.....opinions? Thoughts? Comments? Is it a possibility that she was just a dispatcher and not an EMT and misidentified because she was maybe in some sort of uniform?

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/...source=SFnewyorkpost&utm_medium=SFnewyorkpost

 

[WuLabsWuTecH]

I remember reading about this as well. The article does not make it clear whether she is an EMT or not. I know that some places require dispatchers to at least have an EMT certification if not a Paramedic cert.

If she "snuck away" as the article suggests, then she is on duty. If she was on an official break, as the headline suggests, then she is not on duty. I think there is some journalistic sensationalization going on here...

Assuming she is an EMT and was off duty, unless her SOGs state otherwise, she is not required to render aid and my not even be covered under her medical protocol.

Assuming she is an EMT and was on duty, that's when the "flag down rule" as Nahmod calls it applies.

Assuming she is NOT an EMT, then none of this applies since she can't render any medical aid anyways as she is not covered under the protocol!

"But on Wednesday, Nahmod called Richardson and said the flag-down rule doesn’t apply in this case because Jackson wasn’t assigned to an ambulance or special event where they are expected to provide aid." Another scenario is that perhaps she was at one point required to be certified as an EMT, but some dispatching agencies don't require currency, just that you had the training at some point. Perhaps something came to light that caused the Chief to realize that the rule did not, or could not apply.

For me, it's pretty clear what happens because if we are in uniform, we are to provide aid to the best of our ability based on what limited resources we have and what our protocol says. The way our SOGs are written, if we are in uniform, while there is no state law that requires a duty to act, our department SOG states that we have a duty to act and that we are immediately considered to be on-duty from that point until other on-duty personnel arrive (it specifically emphasizes other on duty personnel to make the point that if we are in uniform and flagged down, we are automatically now on-duty). This means that we have full protection of our department insurance and can work under our protocol.

This policy is in place for a PR utility as our chief does not want people seeing City of ABC EMS people stepping over unconscious bodies showing up on the 6 o'clock news!

But I think she is right in what she says towards the end of the article. If she had to do it all over again, she would do the same thing but at least make an attempt to call 911 and have a medic dispatched to her location.

 

[NYMedic828]

All FDNY EMS dispatchers are EMTs. (medics can't work dispatch)

She was supposedly in uniform which I don't doubt because how would anyone know of her position with FDNY if she was anonymously dressed?

I wasn't there, but if I had been in her supposed position I could not imagine just sitting there wearing the FDNY patch on my sleeve let alone an EMT patch on my other sleeve, and not doing anything. There is more to the story then the news stated which I don't recall off hand its been a while now but I would put her somewhat at fault, but hardly the amount they are putting on her shoulders.

Can I actually do anything for this woman having that severe of an attack in a coffee shop? Of course not, but I would at least make it seem like I tried and at the very least done CPR in the end.

When you put on a uniform, especially one that holds the FDNY name, people in NYC expect something of you. Do something. Do anything... Don't just stand there and let people think you don't care it gives the entire organization a bad rep.

That said, I don't think she deserves life ending criminal charges for it when realistically, as more informed people, we know that she couldn't truly have done anything to help this woman without having any form of treatment available. Anything she could actually have done would hardly be more than putting on a show.

 

[mgr22]

I think subjective terms like "callously refused" and "snuck away" make that piece sound more like an opinion than a news report. I'm not going to assume anything I read there is factual.

I rode with Abdo Nahmod, the EMS chief, many years ago. My impressions of him were always favorable. If he changed his mind about how that case should be handled, then I believe he had a good reason.

 

[NYMedic828]

I think subjective terms like "callously refused" and "snuck away" make that piece sound more like an opinion than a news report. I'm not going to assume anything I read there is factual.

I rode with Abdo Nahmod, the EMS chief, many years ago. My impressions of him were always favorable. If he changed his mind about how that case should be handled, then I believe he had a good reason.

The NY Post is also a major hater of civil servants. They do everything they possibly can to go after FDNY, EMS, Sanitation and NYPD. Funny thing is their headquarters overlooks the FDNY academy.

 

[Carlos Danger]

The NY Post is also a major hater of civil servants. They do everything they possibly can to go after FDNY, EMS, Sanitation and NYPD. Funny thing is their headquarters overlooks the FDNY academy.

Maybe the NYP does not hate civil servants at all, but rather the waste, abuse, and corruption that is so prevalent at every level of every public department in NYC.

 

[DrParasite]

There is one very obvious lesson we should ALL learn. When you go to lunch, when you take a smoke break, when you grab a coffee, when you are walking to your car from your station, anytime you want to be considered off duty, make sure you REMOVE YOUR UNIFORM SHIRT, so no one can identify you as a MOS.

I said it before, and I will say it again: this is PR nightmare for FDNY, and the huge emotional outcry from the public is what is fueling this witchhunt. Having the mayor convict her publicly before the investigation was completed, and her not able to publicly defend herself on the advice of her attorney, while the entire media and uninformed public was portraying her as thr devil incarnatae didn't help the situation.

And while the family is looking for someone to blame, and the EMT/Dispatcher in question probably had a moral obligation to do something (despite not having any equipment with her to actually change the outcome of the situation), there was no legal obligation to assist.

Her career will probably never advance because of this incident, and her reputation has been destroyed, but I think the Chief made the right decision.

 

[Fire51]

Since she was in a uniform even if it is a dispatchers uniform wouldn't she still have a DUTY TO ACT at this point, so what if she is not working as a EMT that day, you would think that anyone in EMS would be more then willing to help someone that is in need of your help. Even though there really isn't anything you could do with out equipment or transportation. That's just the first thing that I thought of when I heard about it. I also wounder why all the chargers were just all of a sudden dropped, that is very weird.

 

[Dwindlin]

I wasn't there, but if I had been in her supposed position I could not imagine just sitting there wearing the FDNY patch on my sleeve let alone an EMT patch on my other sleeve, and not doing anything.

Gets easier with time.

Since she was in a uniform even if it is a dispatchers uniform wouldn't she still have a DUTY TO ACT at this point, so what if she is not working as a EMT that day, you would think that anyone in EMS would be more then willing to help someone that is in need of your help. Even though there really isn't anything you could do with out equipment or transportation. That's just the first thing that I thought of when I heard about it. I also wounder why all the chargers were just all of a sudden dropped, that is very weird.

Depends on your area. Here, if I am on duty, I don't have a duty to act until I am assigned a call. Now, we can volunteer to help if we're not already on a call, but if we don't we aren't opened up to any sort of liability.

 

[troymclure]

louisiana is such a litigation happy state i would not touch a person unless dispatched to them.

 

[jediwill]

Yeah there is so much that isnt known about this....I could see from the wording that she wasnt well thought of by the writer.I know that there is so much that goes on that can be misinterpreted by those not in the know.The article said she contacted 911 dispatch...I wonder what the response time was.I just would like some unbiased info on what really happened.I can see why bystanders would accuse her of not doing anything....but then again did the bystanders realize that unless she had some o2 and meds and equipment there isnt much she could do?In my experience especially in emergency situations families and bystanders really have no idea how we have been trained and what we can n cant do.Even if they knew all that im sure in their panic*if there was any* they just wanted someone to just do something.So many times perception is reality I guess and if they see you making an effort to help they think its effective whether it is or not....I dunno just thinking out loud.

 

[bbmtnbb]

Here is a thought on this topic...she was assigned to dispatch-911 was called and was en route to my understanding. As a uniformed dispatcher she did her job. An asthma attack needs medication. If she was standing there, appearing like she was rendering aid and a bystander had an inhaler or?? with them, how likely are they to stop if it appears help is on scene and yet as a dispatcher she has NO capabilities to help. Holding the hand of the asthmatic pregnant woman was the best she could do-plus make sure she is seated not lying down. But, really what was she supposed to do? Call for help. Really that is it in this case. Not in labor, not in need of CPR, so what could she do. And if she was 'appearing' to render aid could it dissuade others who actually could render aid? Just a thought. Had lots of conversations on this today. Morally what should she have done? Legally-no reason to act as she is a dispatcher (even if an EMT, not on duty as an EMT)
and has NO ability to help an asthmatic. Just my thoughts. Thinking I would hold her hand though, as I care about people. But not sure if that is wise. Other thoughts.

 

[Clipper1]

But you do not know it is an asthma attack unless you actually go up to the patient, look for yourself and talk to the people who know her to answer your questions. She was also reported to have been having a seizure. You can help there by preventing her from hitting her head against furniture and clearing bystanders.

If you are in a NY uniform, people know where you work and dispatchers have been in the news in that city for a few years now. The dispatchers being trained EMTs has been a big point made in the media to "assure" the public someone knowledgeable is on the other end.

At the very least both dispatchers could have gone over and looked professional even if they could do no more than look busy while doing very little. Identifying her and the immediate family or friends with her and getting the others to stand back to make way for the ambulance would have been a big help. Nobody knew they were off duty.

By doing a simple search on this forum it seems this was discussed at great length every time more information was printed over the following year as the investigation continued. If you want more information do a search. It looks like some of the members responding were employees of NY and close to the situation which could also have been office gossip.

Rest assured that this dispatcher was able to draw her paycheck over the past 2 or more years while suspended. During that time she could do whatever she wanted to train for the future incase the outcome was not favorable.


I also have to ask how many here wear their uniform after work to do some shopping or stop for coffee. I bet most enjoy the attention you get when wearing that uniform and you like to get noticed as well as all the freebies and discounts which come with it. Isn't that also why some wear their department or some EMS T-shirts off duty? It seems some want noticed but only for good stuff and don't realize the uniform gets a lot more attention and not just for the heroic deeds you do. Yeah, there's a lot of talk on this forum about duty to act while off duty. If you are not in a position to be identified, then you can walk away. But, if you are wearing your uniform off duty when you had a chance to change, then people will notice and you are inviting the attention even if it is not the cool call or the attention you were desiring.