BLS/Trauma Kit Advice

will said:
VentMedic, that's the reason I got the O2 filled I did... Both as training specifically to provide O2 in an Emergency, and as a CPR Instructor able to train others in much more basic use than what I've been trained to do.

The Gas filler filled a bottle owned by a company I work with for me, and other than one former Combat Medic who is now an RN I don't know of anyone at the company trained in it's use. O2 is just too expensive to have anyways... I wouldn't mind having it in my Kit, but not about to shell out the $300 or so to get a cylinder, regulator, etc...

Sorry to create all the arguing/hardships... guess I'm good at starting topics on controversial subjects :) It's my curse... Guess I'm always a bit too gung-ho for my own good ;)
Click to expand...

I understand where you are coming from, and I have a similar background. I am a DAN O2 instructor, and I used to be an EFR instructor (long story, for another post). I know what DAN O2 teaches in terms of the cert card being a license to carry O2, but I think that there are mitigating factors.

My understanding is, if you want to carry O2 in your car (for diving emergencies), you need to placard your car as carrying a hazardous material, and, depending on the region, may need to secure it in specific ways. As well as DAN O2 cert, other localities may require owner/operators of O2 to hold a Rescue Diver level cert (whatever the agency). I will look into the details of this-- I remember a conversation about this on another forum (PM me and I will look for it).

Good Luck, and go for EMT training (and consider DAN's DEMT add-on program),

DES
 
will;55684 Sorry to create all the arguing/hardships... guess I'm good at starting topics on controversial subjects :) It's my curse... Guess I'm always a bit too gung-ho for my own good ;)[/QUOTE said:
No worries!! An about the expiring gauze...I agree it's ridiculous. It was just the other stuff that I was pointing out that is easy to forget about.
Click to expand...
 
EMT-Student, Not sure about placarding... Typically that refers to Commercial Vehicles... The DOT also has a quantity specified on items before they have to be placarded... I'll try and look it up tonight (I have the Hazmat Pocket Book) I am a Class A licensed Driver with Hazmat Endorsement... in fact my previous job was hauling welding cylinder (glad I don't do that anymore)

Anyways, I'll try and look it up. It's likely a single cylinder M size or smaller is not placarded (in fact it might have to be a 125cf or even larger to require it)... it's just like the scuba cylinders themselves... compressed air in large enough quatities is Hazmat, because it could explode in a fire, etc... but you don't have to placard your car with a compressed air sticker.

It's possible, but I've never heard of anyone needing a placard for a single O2 cylinder. Think about all the people using it for Rx who carry it in thier car.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Something that I think you should really consider before doing this is how much good are you really going to do on scene before an ambulance arrives?

First aid is exactly that...first aid until other resources arrive. ABC's, C-spine, and basic wound care are about the extent of what you are going to be able to do (and should be doing) before an ambulance arrives.

There are very few items in the EMT-B's/MFR/FA certification that will actually save a life outside of the basics of ABC's, C-spine, and wound care (notice a theme here?) At this level, all we are doing is stabilizing the patient for transport to definitive treatment.

As far as the oxygen cylinder goes, you may want to check out this thread.

POV Issues
 
Yeah, I've hijacked my own thread DOH!.

For the O2, I found something about 1001lbs or more to placard, don't recall if that's correct or not, will have to see if I find more at home... but that's quite a bit of O2 even compressed, an 80CF cylinder won't be more than 100lbs

If youre bit about the basics is in regard to my saying I think we have a lack in training in the US... I have no doubt the basic are the core... Looking forward to actually learning more about them... I only see a lack in the training in the basics at a First Aid level. They cover the ABC's farily well in CPR I think but wound care usually just covers bandaging of one or 2 different wounds, and doesn't even do them justice... I've seen many people get out of a FA class and you show them something like a 4x4 and they say "I wouldn't even know what to do with that" I don't like that after FA training, you can go buy any sized first aid kit and not know what over 1/2 the items are for... most people don't know what the diferences or use of each bandage is, or the medications provided in your typical drug store first aid kit.
 
will said:
Yeah, I've hijacked my own thread DOH!.

For the O2, I found something about 1001lbs or more to placard, don't recall if that's correct or not, will have to see if I find more at home... but that's quite a bit of O2 even compressed, an 80CF cylinder won't be more than 100lbs

If youre bit about the basics is in regard to my saying I think we have a lack in training in the US... I have no doubt the basic are the core... Looking forward to actually learning more about them... I only see a lack in the training in the basics at a First Aid level. They cover the ABC's farily well in CPR I think but wound care usually just covers bandaging of one or 2 different wounds, and doesn't even do them justice... I've seen many people get out of a FA class and you show them something like a 4x4 and they say "I wouldn't even know what to do with that" I don't like that after FA training, you can go buy any sized first aid kit and not know what over 1/2 the items are for... most people don't know what the differences or use of each bandage is, or the medications provided in your typical drug store first aid kit.
Click to expand...

I understand, and agree. I carry O2 in my car when I dive (I do/did a lot of shore diving), but wasn't transporting it on a regular basis. I have the cheap DAN "Oxygen on board" sticker on my O2 box (visible from outside) because of a horror story I heard from one of my FF friends about an O2 fire in a car.
In fact, unsecured compressed air (in SCUBA cylinders) is very dangerous and I remember reading something a few years ago about someone who transported their tanks valve-in, and ended up getting killed by a projectile when they stopped short and the valve shot off... but I digress.

FFEMT, I also understand and agree with what you are saying, but want to disagree with one statement. I agree that in general, we should be waiting for a full ambulance and the equipment that comes with it, and that stabilization is key pre-hospital, in the specific case of SCUBA related injuries, it has been proved that the earlier O2 has been applied, the better the end result, because pre-decompression chamber, O2 is the best (and only) treatment for suspected decompression illness/sickness.
 
emt-student said:
FFEMT, I also understand and agree with what you are saying, but want to disagree with one statement. I agree that in general, we should be waiting for a full ambulance and the equipment that comes with it, and that stabilization is key pre-hospital, in the specific case of SCUBA related injuries, it has been proved that the earlier O2 has been applied, the better the end result, because pre-decompression chamber, O2 is the best (and only) treatment for suspected decompression illness/sickness.
Click to expand...

A lot of things have better end result when the proper and appropriate treatment is given sooner, that's a given. The point is where do you draw the line between first aid and providing medical care?

From a first aid stand point, and please remember that is what Will (the OP) would be without an agency affiliation, carrying O2 may not be worth the liability.

From a post by akflightmedic in the POV Issues thread:
I was just reiterating the fact the O2 is a drug as so many people forget that and believe it is totally harmless to handle, transport or administer.

If anyone is going to carry any drug in their POV, they better have medical directors approval and also have a plan in place per OSHA guidelines (if you are OSHA state) on the storage, maintenance and care of such cylinder.

You are also opening yourself up to a whole new area of liabililty. I know this seems like over reaction but you have to consider every scenario.

Are you going to keep a log showing daily how much O2 you have?

What size cylinder are you going to buy?

What are you going to do when you run out of O2 on scene and no unit is there yet? Now you have intiated a higher level of care and are unable to continue that level.

Who is going to pay for your refills? It can get quite expensive as O2 gets used up pretty darn quick.

Are you also going to ensure and pay a company to do testing on your cylinder annually so you have proof that it is not faulty and in good working condition?
Click to expand...
 
emt-student said:
and that stabilization is key pre-hospital, in the specific case of SCUBA related injuries, it has been proved that the earlier O2 has been applied, the better the end result, because pre-decompression chamber, O2 is the best (and only) treatment for suspected decompression illness/sickness.
Click to expand...

And, that is why so many organizations lobbied to get oxygen for dive companies. UHMS, AARC, FSRC, DAN and others all recognized that importance. The dive industry as well as several other providers, including miners, needed access to emergency oxygen.

However, it was not meant for every well (or not) intentioned citizen to take a short class and then carry an O2 tank around with them in their POV. There is so much more to learn about being a First Responder/EMT when the cause of or the injuries are not obvious. The greater picture of scene and patient stabilization should also be appreciated. As you know in diving, trauma, MI, CVA, just to name a few, occur frequently. Look at the diving deaths in the Florida Keys for the last 2 years. Decompression sickness actually is on the rare side compared to all the other possibilities. But, it was a battle worth winning to get the oxygen on the dive boats. Unfortunately, the dive industry still has a ways to go in some of its other safety regulations but they are making the effort for improvement.
 
will said:
One suggestion was the sterile water, which as I stated I actually found .9% Sodium Choloride wound rinse in the over the counter section, and wondered if that was worth having.
Click to expand...

Anyone have any thoughts as to the usefulness of this wound rinse? I like the idea of having something in my personal kit to irrigate with.
 
Since I do quite a bit of backcountry stuff, I do like something for wound irrigation. I have a small sterile water and a syringe.

And on the first aid kit thing. As the years go by, most EMT's personal kits get smaller, not bigger. A lot of stuff sounds like a great idea until you have to rummage through all that 'maybe someday' stuff for the 8 - 10 things you need all the time.
 
So bosssycow, you think that wound wash I found at the Wal-Mart is a decent one? Seems funny that you goto an EMS supplier and Sterile water or .9% Sodium Chloride is Rx, but yet Walmart and other online sources are selling .9% sodium chloride in this bottle OTC... perhaps the FDA approved it differently due to the packaging.

As for the rummaging... I actually had a friend make a good suggestion about the rummaging bit (since he knew I had the equipment to do it)

He suggested pre-packaging mini-kits inside the larger kit using a food saver (vacuum sealer) and then write on the outside what they are for... examples were such as minor trauma, major trauma, broken bone, etc... Not a bad idea... his reasoning was 1) no rummaging through to find certain items, they should be in the pack they would be utilized in, and 2) that if you get blood on things you don't have to throw out a bunch of unused bandages you got blood on, just wash the sealed packs off... pretty good idea I thought... now whether I'll use it or not, who knows... I might make a couple up that are generic just to keep things tidy, say 5-10 4x4's, 2 gauze rolls per package and 3-4 packs of those, or something to that effect.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
I know nothing about the WalMart product so I can't comment one way or another on that. I do know that most packaging not designed specifically for EMS tends to disintegrate when you need it most.

I think that most of the pre-packing and creating of bundles of stuff to go into kits and designing kits and thinking about what to put into kits and rearranging of kits is a nice hobby if you have the time and inclination. I mean, they look pretty and really make you feel comfortable and prepared and everything.

You will find, if you start going on calls where you actually use the stuff, that you will be tearing into the pre-packaged stuff to get 'just one more of those' and the rest of it ends up in the mud.

I keep a ziplock baggy with an assortment of dressings and another with an assortment of bandaging material. To be reading the labels, with a flashlight, in the rain, the mud, on a hillside is not practical. At least not for me. I look, I grab, I use.
 
Ive got a nice compact jump kit in my car, I've got 2 hot packs, 2 cold packs, 2 bottles of sterile water, lots of 4x4's, 3x3's 2x2's etc. a few different sizes of sterile kling, 3 sizes of OPA's, 3 sizes of NPA's (and packets of water based lube), BP cuff and scope, latex free gloves, a few different sizes of tape, emergency blanket, shears, insta-glucose, an adult BVM, a pocketmask and I can't really think of anything else, (any suggestions of anything I'm missing btw)
 
emtwacker710 said:
I can't really think of anything else, (any suggestions of anything I'm missing btw)
Click to expand...

Yeah, a cell phone to call 911 and leave it to the responding units...

R/r 911
 
Okay, time for your much needed reality check and you'll have to excuse me if I'm a little harsh but there are times where it's needed.

You are not MFR, WFR, EMT, BLS nor ALS. You are no different than your next door neighbor. You operate at the same level and protocols as Bill Clinton does. You lack the knowledge of anatomy, physiology or pathophysiology and most importantly, you are not a certified healthcare provider. Whatever "training" you've received means jack @#!* because they don't need your rescue ranger doodads, they need an ambulance 5 minutes ago.

Unless you have an ambulance with you, you can bring no more to the table in an emergency than J Edgar Hoover could.
How can you save a life? Whip out your damn phone and dial 911 and let them do it.
You're talking about carrying all this junk in some high-speed low-drag bag with fancy names yet all of it is worth absolutely nothing if you don't have the knowledge to use it and AN AMBULANCE TO TRANSPORT IN.

You find yourself encountering a person injured, but what do you know that others around you dont?
If there's lots of red stuff coming out, stop it. If they're pulseless/apneic, do CPR. Great, my 7 year old cousin can do that.
So what the hell makes you think you need a 200 dollar go bag with a BVM and BP cuff?? And you're talking about having oxygen too? Dude, you've got to be kidding me.
Let's say, somehow you end up carrying a D-cylinder in your kit. You have 1000psi. Want to know what that'll bring you? 8 minutes of oxygen at 15lpm. If your patient is alive for 8 minutes, chances are you probably shouldn't have touched him, since he could have made it fine without you.

I'll say it again, HE NEEDS AN AMBULANCE.
You'll say "hey a$$hole, what do they do that I can't do?"
One word: MOVE
They're actually going in the right direction, that being an ED or an OR.

Keep a cellphone, a pair of gloves and a CPR mask with you and stay in your lane.
Sure, call me the a$$hole of the site, but someone needs to say it. You need to understand that you're not gonna save a life with any of this stuff. A patient who is circling the drain isn't in need of what you've got, he's in need of someone who knows how to stop it all.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
well I don't really need to call 911 as I am one of the units that respond when they call my FD for 1st responders, or on my duty night at the squad I go directly to the scene, and since we are all vol. some nights it can take 10 minutes to get a crew for the rig and to get to the scene
 
SwissEMT said:
Okay, time for your much needed reality check and you'll have to excuse me if I'm a little harsh but there are times where it's needed.

You are not MFR, WFR, EMT, BLS nor ALS. You are no different than your next door neighbor. You operate at the same level and protocols as Bill Clinton does. You lack the knowledge of anatomy, physiology or pathophysiology and most importantly, you are not a certified healthcare provider. Whatever "training" you've received means jack @#!* because they don't need your rescue ranger doodads, they need an ambulance 5 minutes ago.
Click to expand...

actually I am a NYS certified EMT-D thank you very much
 
I think everyone should take a deep breath and relax a little bit.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top