Age and EMS

[Code 3]

It also requires the ability to make rationale decisions and critical decision thinking skills that (on average) teens and even young adults cannot physically can make or perform. Again, scientifically proven.

In all honesty though, what profession doesn't require this in some aspect? With that being said, do you believe that no teenager or young adult would be able to function properly in his/her profession?

What about police officers? New recruits are only required to be 21 and they are handed a gun and statewide policing powers. What about all the new 20 and 21 year olds fresh out of college with their BA's getting jobs in corporate America. Surely they will need to make rationale decisions and use critical thinking in order to work.

I guess what I'm getting at is... what would you consider to be the magical age? The age in which people obtain the ability to make rationale decisions and use critical thinking skills.

I'd also like to bring up what Kendall wrote:

1) be accepted into an education program
2) successfully complete said education program
3) be successful on state/provincial and national registry exams
4) Be hired by an ambulance service and monitored by a Medical Director and a FTO.

If a teenager or young adult is capable of successfully passing steps 1-4 and you don't see this as sufficient proof, what else would you add to determine a candidate's ability to make rationale decisions and use critical thinking skills?

You are very seasoned on these boards and well-respected. This is by no means meant to be confrontational. I'm just simply trying to understand what you believe the solution is and when it's "acceptable" join the EMS profession.

 

[VentMedic]

What about police officers? New recruits are only required to be 21 and they are handed a gun and statewide policing powers. What about all the new 20 and 21 year olds fresh out of college with their BA's getting jobs in corporate America. Surely they will need to make rationale decisions and use critical thinking in order to work.

Police Officers are not a good example because, unlike EMS, the candidates do undergo various psychological testing upon application and throughout the academy. Many PDs may also want the equivalent of a 2 year college degree at the time of application also. PDs also know their young Explorers are not professionals capable of making critical decisions as a Police Officer at the age of 16.

Corporate America rarely will consider anyone less than the age of 21 AND higher education is required which will give the student 4 years with various stresses while obtaining that education to mature. The better corporate jobs also have various entry level jobs to trial the applicant during their probationary period as well.

Both jobs PDs and corporations may get thousands of employment applications and can be choosy in their hiring practices. It is rare to find the "warm body" mentality in major corporations with critical decsion making responsibilities as is practiced in way too EMS companies. Regardless of age, applicants that do not have demonstrated maturity will not be accepted.

FDs are a different type of exception to the above rules when it comes to hiring practices. They are looking for physical endurance and critical thinking with specific concerns. Obeying your superiors and following orders to the letter are what many FDs look for as part of their concerns for safety as well as the ability to play well with each other. They also get more than enough applicants for a very few openings. Again, their Explorers at the age of 16 are not considered professionals capable of fighting a fire on their own.

Quote by Kendall

1) be accepted into an education program
2) successfully complete said education program
3) be successful on state/provincial and national registry exams
4) Be hired by an ambulance service and monitored by a Medical Director and a FTO.

There are young EMS providers out there, and they have jumped through the same hoops as any other practitioner to get there. I'd say that means a lot of people down that line have deemed the practitioner to be capable of handling the stresses of our profession at their level of care.

What hoops? EMS has the shortest requirements of the healthcare professions and has the easiest entry. We've also heard the horror tales of a new Paramedic getting just a couple of shifts with their FTO before getting assigned a truck. Take a guess how some EMTs are orientated?

quote by Code 3

If a teenager or young adult is capable of successfully passing steps 1-4 and you don't see this as sufficient proof, what else would you add to determine a candidate's ability to make rationale decisions and use critical thinking skills?

Seriously? We're talking about an EMT-B course. See the above paragraphs of my post about PD and corporate America since you were the one to mention them in your post.

Medical professions that require an Associates (2 year degree) again give the instructors a chance to observe the students through over a 1000 patient contact hours. If there are any weaknesses, some students may be asked to leave the program.

An EMT course with just 16 - 30 hours of clinicals gives no one, neither student or instructor, a chance to understand the student's abilities. Paramedic school can be the same way when the only goal is passing the student through the program.

Yes, one can use the argument there are lousy healthcare professionals even with a degree, but can you imagine what they would have been like with just a short course and a little younger?

I still look at the EMT-B as a first-aid class similar to what many of us from another generation were taught years ago in junior high or high school. Even though it was actually longer than today's EMT-B course, it was just meant to show what to do in case of an emergency but not meant to be enough to make critical decisons for peoples' lives as a profession.

 

[Code 3]

I understand what you're saying, but again no one has mentioned the definitive age that you believe is appropriate. Or is it not the age and instead the classroom process? You bring up points about less time to be monitored in a clinical and field setting. You also state that someone who is 21 with a 4-year degree has successfully undergone enough stress in their life to help them mature.

 

[jrm818]

I think the real issue is lack of training and education which amounts to a lack of screening of candidates. There are plenty of young students in medical school who seem to do just fine (on average) with patient care. It's all about the selection process.

It may have been hypothesized and supported that young adults have not reached the peak of their decision making abilities even into the early 20's, but I don't believe I've ever seen anything "proven," and I'm pretty sure it hasn't even been demonstrated in any form that that the suboptimal performance of young adults correlates with an inability to perform a job in EMS specifically.

What has been scientifically "proven" about cognitive decline once you pass the mid 20's? The time of cognitive "peak" is very short, but there are a lot of rather grey-haired people in medicine and EMS nevertheless. I suspect that's because education, training, and experience have a lot more to do with it than results found in the (hugely) imprecise arena of cognitive research.

That said anything under 18 is clearly too young. Not legal adults, and almost ubiquitously (obviously...another generalization) too emotionally immature to stay on an even keel. That isn't to say when they turn 18 they're magically ready....again....screening.

 

[VentMedic]

I understand what you're saying, but again no one has mentioned the definitive age that you believe is appropriate. Or is it not the age and instead the classroom process? You bring up points about less time to be monitored in a clinical and field setting. You also state that someone who is 21 with a 4-year degree has successfully undergone enough stress in their life to help them mature.

Both my post and jrm818 pointed out the screening process to go along with the educational requirements.

Flaws in EMS:
1. few if any education prerequisites to gain entry to an EMT or Paramedic program
2. very little educational standards which vary significantly from one program to another
3. limited patient contacts during clinicals
4. lack of standards as to what a "patient contact" is as some paramedic students do rotations on ALS engines with no transport
5. ease of entry into the workforce
6. few if any screening processes in place during the application process (Some agencies have even demonstrated the inability to screen for a valid state cert)
7. lack of quality medical oversight
8. lack of adequate QI/QA in place to monitor effectiveness of care

Now if you add the flaws of the EMS educational and employment processes with placing someone who is not even of legal drinking age or old enough to join the ARMY (yes, opinions there also) and you may not achieve the best results for patient care.

 

[WuLabsWuTecH]

Shortage in what? EMT's ? Really where? Actually there is an over abundance of EMT's.

Would you say the same thing if it was RN or P.A.'s, Surgeons? Sorry, there is no excuse allowable to let kids handle medical emergencies. This is a profession NOT a hobby nor first aid care!
If one wants to provide first-aid care then take and expect to perform that care. Medical profession requires more than just one that was able to read and pass a test. It also requires the ability to make rationale decisions and critical decision thinking skills that (on average) teens and even young adults cannot physically can make or perform. Again, scientifically proven.

R/r 911

I would argue that "kids" might have better critical thinking skills than those even more experienced. Sure they won't understand as much about the medical topics as someone like you who has been in the field for a long time, but they will be able to become a good EMT after some length of experience be it a few years or so.

At 18, I already had a year of college under my belt. That year was my senior year in high school where I took a full load during which I doubled and took almost a full freshman load at the local State University.

Did I have critical thinking skills and know how to deal with the stresses and pressures of life? Maybe, it was academia and not real life so that might be different, but certainly I was not the typical high school senior who is just hanging out and kickin' it with friends all the time.

By the time I got my EMT-B card, I had another year done taking 18 and 21 credits in two semesters at one of the nation's top institutions. Sure, getting an A in my quantum electron physics class won't help me much in the field, and I realize that, but it does help develop my critical thinking abilities.

I have a far way to go in order to gain experience in this field, but what I cannot comprehend is someone who thinks age should limit exposure to this field. There are some very intelligent "kids" who I am friends with here who are EMTs and I would very quickly trust them with my life versus some of the 30 year olds back in Ohio who don't care about their job.

 

[BossyCow]

Okay, I admit it, I'm old. I've seen a lot of really mature, stable individuals of tender age. I've seen many old fools who shouldn't be allowed out without a keeper.

But I am for age limits on what we do. Under 18 is first off, not a legal adult so being able to make decisions on life sustaining treatment in the often gray areas of EMS shouldn't be allowed. To say that there is someone of legal age willing to sign off on your work doesn't matter. You are not legally able to sign a contract, buy a car, vote or own property, you shouldn't be responsible for the lives of others, legally.

While there are many young people bragging about how mature they are, they do not have the perspective of age and time required to make that determination. Being told by a supervisor that you are 'mature for your age' or 'wise beyond your years' doesn't make you the same as someone with more life experience. I remember feeling very mature at my age, but that 20/20 hindsight looking back from where I am now, shows up all the flaws in my perceptions at the time.

I don't understand why so many take it as an insult that they are not adults when they are still in their teens. Choosing to act adult, behave in a adult manner and learn adult skill is part of the prep work for becoming an adult. But I believe that life experience, time and the importance of 'time served' cannot be over emphasized.

So, go ahead, heap your recriminations on my old gray head! I can take it. I'm an adult.

 

[XxBigBrotherxX]

Get it right

Lately there has been foment and comment about teenagers in EMS. What do you think about ANY particular age group in EMS?


I don't want to discourage enthusiastic amateurs of any age, but they need to develop a background of knowledge and experience before running headlong with the big dogs and dogettes. More question marks.

What say you??

Well im only 18 and i just started my EMT-Basic Course and i take offense to what you said. Age really doesnt guarentee experience and background knowledge. I feel that if teenagers arent qualified to do the job then we wouldnt be able to become certified. I also sense jealous in you. Teenage EMTs are the future of EMS. It is up to us change EMS for the better, seeing as how "the big dogs and doggettes" ruined the reputation of EMS. Allow us to make a change. This is history in the making. So shut the hell up and let me make it.

 

[LINYEMT]

As someone who is a bit older than most of the volunteers at my house, I have to say that almost all of them - although more apt to goof around during off hours (i.e. waiting for calls) - they are VERY professional and capable when on a call. I am new to this profession and I am so far very impressed with the younger folks.

 

[PotatoMedic]

First off I am currently an EMT-B student, and I am 19 years old. (These two facts I'll come back to later).

The two biggest things I have seen people, young and old, say is: Experience (of some sort), and people saying 18 19 20 (or some similar age) is too young. So I ask you how do you judge someones life experience? And what is this magic age that you people want? Or does it all depend on who? Every person is different. Every person comes from a different background. Every person handles every situation differently.

A small example of this would be when my dad died (I was 16). I cried for an hour and in the way my mother put it, "I was fine." A friend of mine who's dad died at about the same age was gone from school for a week and was still mourning afterwords for who knows how long.

Another event not to long ago in my life that I doubt I will ever forget is an aid call I got to ride along on. It was an MVA Car vs. Motorcycle. Patient mid 30's responsive to verbal stimuli. Fire department was there EMS was there and the patient on the ground with a decent amount of blood loss from at least all 4 extremities. When I was there I had an odd feeling that I can't quite describe, but when one of the EMT's I was observing yelled at me to get some equipment I was able to respond. And honestly for the time that I was standing there I had no idea if I was going to be able to do anything.

The two biggest things I learned from that call is no I really don't want to ride a motorcycle. And more importantly is that I have the potential to be able to act effectively in an emergency situation.

I am by no means saying that once I get my certification that give me an aid car and I will be good to go. I am saying that when I get my certification I will be ready to be mentored and continue to learn and grow to the point where I can effectively and safely handle an emergency situation NOT alone but with another EMT.

Whether I should have been exposed to some of the things I have seen and experienced is debatable it is not the point of my post. The point is that people come from different backgrounds and different experiences. I just happened to share a few of mine as an example.




Just so you know I know a lot of 19 year olds who I would not want in any civil service or medical field.

 

[tazman7]

First off I am currently an EMT-B student, and I am 19 years old. (These two facts I'll come back to later).

. When I was there I had an odd feeling that I can't quite describe, but when one of the EMT's I was observing yelled at me to get some equipment I was able to respond. .

So just because you were on a bad call and were able to go and get supplies when needed, you feel you are ready to be in charge of a persons life?

Going and getting supplies out of the rig is a whole different ballgame then calling the shots in the back of the rig... EMT-B...


What I dont understand is how people come on here and are like " I am currently in EMT-B and I should be able to do this and I can manage that...."

I remember when I got my emt-b license I thought I had the power to save the world...then I started medic school and my eyes opened up and I awoke from my dream I was having...

 

[emtjack02]

Really....I can't believe we are all talking about this...
It seems it's more or less the older guys saying the young guys arent capable of doing this profession. Whether or not anyone likes any part of it it doesn't seem to be changing. I am not talking about sending <18yoa out to be primary care. We all have to work together so you "big dogs" take the little guys under your wing and train them the way you want them to practice. Has anyone heard of a TEAM that's what we (all of us) are act like it.

 

[medic417]

I remember when I got my emt-b license I thought I had the power to save the world...then I started medic school and my eyes opened up and I awoke from my dream I was having...

LOL. How true!!!!!!!!!!!! I was the saviour of all mankind as an EMT-B then I got educated as a Paramedic and now realize how stupid EMT's were and are. Wow a basic can put a splint or a abandage not much else. Heck boy scouts get that much education. Really it is time for boy scouts I mean EMT-basics to be removed from EMS. We really need what is best for the patients and that is more education. Even Paramedic level needs more education but at least its more than a few weeks of first aid training.

 

[Jon]

When I got my EMT at 16 - was I ready for what I saw - NO. Am I a better EMT because of it? Yes. There were times I wanted to walk away, though - and I was talked out of it by older, more experienced providers.

Take some time and find some "old dogs" that know what they are doing. there are some that are good providers want to pass on knowledge to the next generation, and they will teach you a LOT more than you learned in class.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~`

As for age - I've said this before, and I'll say it again.

Age is a hot-button topic. In some states, you can become an EMT at 16 - and you can join the military at 17... both with the approval of your parents.

Yet you aren't responsible enough to vote until you are 18. You aren't responsible enough to smoke tobacco until 18 (or 19, in the People's Republic of New Jersey), and you aren't responsible enough to consume alcohol until you are 21.

And while you can drive a car on your own at 16 or 17, you can't own a rifle or shotgun until you are 18... yet being irresponsible and inattentive with a car can be JUST AS DEADLY as with a gun... and they can both be used to intentionally hurt someone.

Anyway - there are many different levels at which the State feels a person is responsible enough to engage in activities... and when you look at all the diifferent age breakdowns, it can be downright silly. But that is the world we live in.

On the same token, not everyone hits XX age and changes from child to adult. Some mature early, some mature late.

The laws are what they are - and arguing about them here won't get you anywhere.

 

[Hannah.911]

Age?

Well im only 18 and i just started my EMT-Basic Course and i take offense to what you said. Age really doesnt guarentee experience and background knowledge. I feel that if teenagers arent qualified to do the job then we wouldnt be able to become certified. I also sense jealous in you. Teenage EMTs are the future of EMS. It is up to us change EMS for the better, seeing as how "the big dogs and doggettes" ruined the reputation of EMS. Allow us to make a change. This is history in the making. So shut the hell up and let me make it.

I haven't really introduced myself to the boards yet. Hey. I'm Hannah. I'll be 20 next week and I'm a brand new EMT-I. (got my NREMT on 1/7/09) First of all, I want to come right out and say that I'm not claiming to have experience. I'm not claiming to have this super-special maturity. I just have a desire to be in EMS..and I'm willing to grow in it.

I want to say that the post above from XxBigBrotherxX makes me ashamed. Just because we have the legal ability to become certified in EMS doesn't make it our God-given right to be in this field. Our job as newbies in this career isn't to push our elders out of the way. They've been in this field for years. They've seen things we've never seen...and they know things we don't know. Our job is to watch and learn....ask questions. Have some humility. XxBigBrotherxX, the very best thing you can do right now is glean whatever tidbits and tips you can from the people that have the experience. So shut the hell up and let them teach you.

 

[Shishkabob]

Going and getting supplies out of the rig is a whole different ballgame then calling the shots in the back of the rig... EMT-B...

Now, while I agree with the first half of that sentence, the second half irks me.

This is what I hate about some people--- the "better than thou" attitude, more education or not.

I bet you wouldn't feel good if a Doctor or an RN told you the exact same thing.

So you think you're a better person because you have a red patch and he doesn't? We're all on the same team with different skill levels, you just need to learn to respect people, whether your agree or not.





You can have your views on how to better EMS, but if those views include belittling people, count me out.

 

[aidan]

Lately there has been foment and comment about teenagers in EMS. What do you think about ANY particular age group in EMS?
I see teenaged soldiers and we had fighter pilots in WWII barely out of thier teens, and bomber crewmen who were fresh out of highschool. When I see the film of the people manning the ambulances in Iraq and Syria and Israel, I do not see people under twenty at least. Most actually look as though in their thirties. In those sort of conditions they continue this way because it works better, sheer Darwinian selection of operations.

I think the energy and enthusiams of youth cause impulse and overshoot in medicine, that they should start with first aid, lifesaving and CPR, then get their education in anatomy and physiology etc. Unless closely monitored they are prone to getting in over their heads, which is a waste of future EMS folks as well as a waste of patients.

As for us old fogies, speaking for myself, I tend not to have the energy or quick recall of youth, but I can look at a patient and tell you things about him a kid simply cannot. I may be a little too sanguine about people dying, but there are things worse than death and and this makes me a better triageur than my more, shall we say, optimistic colleagues.

I don't want to discourage enthusiastic amateurs of any age, but they need to develop a background of knowledge and experience before running headlong with the big dogs and dogettes. More question marks.

What say you??

I disagree.. having gone through two years of undergrad so far, the young people are MUCH more successful in class than people who come back to school later in life..they're fresh out of highschool, and studying isn't something new. The people in their 30's+ stereotypically don't have very good study habits, and are also kind of..stubborn in their ways. And they get frustrated too easily, from what I've seen.

 

[medic417]

I disagree.. having gone through two years of undergrad so far, the young people are MUCH more successful in class than people who come back to school later in life..they're fresh out of highschool, and studying isn't something new. The people in their 30's+ stereotypically don't have very good study habits, and are also kind of..stubborn in their ways. And they get frustrated too easily, from what I've seen.

LOL Not even worth a debate. But I would take an inexperienced older Paramedic over an older experienced basic any day. But yes time away from education does make it tougher on older students to get in the swing of things.

 

[ksEMTbabe]

Age.... is a number. Period, end of story. There are some young medics out there I'd trust to save my family, some older ones I'd rather wait for a truck from another state to come rescue me. The reverse is also true - there are quite a few brand new EMTs I've come across that I'd like to see pee their pants on their first major call. I'm currently a 24 year old street medic, I've been in EMS since I was 19... I've seen a lot of horrible things and I've seen some awesome things and I'm quite sure I was very green when I was first handed a cert card, but I've had some phenomenal mentors and I really think that's what makes the difference between a super tech and a crummy one. If you're worried about the age/quality of some of the younger techs that are coming out onto trucks now, take an extra minute to teach one of them something you think they should know. Each bit adds to their knowledge and hopefully their capability, and maybe it'll give some of the doubters a little more confidence in the new wave of techs.

 

[medic417]

Age.... is a number. Period, end of story. There are some young medics out there I'd trust to save my family, some older ones I'd rather wait for a truck from another state to come rescue me. The reverse is also true - there are quite a few brand new EMTs I've come across that I'd like to see pee their pants on their first major call. I'm currently a 24 year old street medic, I've been in EMS since I was 19... I've seen a lot of horrible things and I've seen some awesome things and I'm quite sure I was very green when I was first handed a cert card, but I've had some phenomenal mentors and I really think that's what makes the difference between a super tech and a crummy one. If you're worried about the age/quality of some of the younger techs that are coming out onto trucks now, take an extra minute to teach one of them something you think they should know. Each bit adds to their knowledge and hopefully their capability, and maybe it'll give some of the doubters a little more confidence in the new wave of techs.

I will give credit to the young Paramedics out there that are doing the job. I worked recently with a 21 yr old Female paramedic that put to shame some of the old timers that have not stayed up with their education. That is the key getting and staying educated, but you also have to be able to take the education from your brain and make yourself perform. I have seen young and old that just could not perform even though they had the education. EMS is not for everyone.