Aed

[emtbuff]

Hey guys and gals, I've been doing some reasearch on AEDs for use by Lay persons/trained personal. At one of the places I currently work at we have discussed getting an AED those that are Full time employees are going to be trained in using it. I'm looking for advise as to what people like to use or know about. I'm also looking for grant or other ways to obtain the machine. If anyone has advise on what to look for or good questions to ask while shoping let me know.

Thanks
emtbuff

 

[JJR512]

I don't know that it's necessary to be trained to use a lay-person AED. These AEDs are designed to walk a non-trained person through using it. That's done by voice prompts or very simple instruction cards. Physio-Control has a Lifepack AED model that only requires you to turn it on and connect the electrodes; this unit analyzes and shocks on its own. This is called "fully automatic" operation; some other brands probably have it, too. The other alternative is semi-automatic, on which you have to press the shock button when prompted by the unit.

I would suggest considering going with a fully automatic model and skipping any training. Or go with full CPR training. But for a fully automatic model, maybe just have people read the instructions and make sure they know where it is and how to turn it on.

http://www.physio-control.com/products/defibrillators/product-detail.aspx?id=556

 

[Chimpie]

II would suggest considering going with a fully automatic model and skipping any training. Or go with full CPR training. But for a fully automatic model, maybe just have people read the instructions and make sure they know where it is and how to turn it on.

Why would you recommend full CPR training but suggest skipping training for the AED? Training is training and whether you're an emergency responder or a lay-citizen you should get as much of it as you can.

emtbuff, AHA and ARC usually combines the two together. And at the very least you're AED sales rep should sit everyone down and go over the unit with everyone who may use it.

 

[MRE]

Why would you recommend full CPR training but suggest skipping training for the AED? Training is training and whether you're an emergency responder or a lay-citizen you should get as much of it as you can.

emtbuff, AHA and ARC usually combines the two together. And at the very least you're AED sales rep should sit everyone down and go over the unit with everyone who may use it.

Agreed. The AED should be usable by someone without any training, however if a person has been instructed in its use prior to an emergency, they will have a better idea of what has to be done and a better chance of doing it correctly in an emergency. Also, a person who has never had any instruction of how to use an AED might just assume they cannot operate it and not even try.

Getting a CPR/AED cert for the employees would be a good idea, but if that wasn't possible an informal discussion of the AED and how it works would be much better than nothing.

 

[JJR512]

Why would you recommend full CPR training but suggest skipping training for the AED?

...AHA and ARC usually combines the two together.

This is why I didn't suggest getting CPR + AED, because CPR usually comes with AED. I was trying to be concise. I apologize if I failed so badly that I made people think I was suggesting training for only CPR skipping the AED portion.

So, my suggestion was basically to not get training just for the AED. Either get the full blown CPR + AED training, or don't bother with any training at all, other than making sure everyone knows where the AEDs are, how to turn them on, when to use them, etc.

The reason I am suggesting either getting full training or no training is that sometimes, when people get just a little bit of the knowledge they need, they think they're Super-medic and can do anything. They become overconfident and screw things up. The lay-person who thinks he knows what he's doing will find some way to screw up using even a fully-automated AED. The lay-person who thinks he doesn't know what he's doing, on the other hand, will be extra-cautious and make sure he does everything right. These are called "lay-person" or "public-access" AEDs for a reason: You don't need any training to use them!

 

[skyemt]

The lay-person who thinks he knows what he's doing will find some way to screw up using even a fully-automated AED. The lay-person who thinks he doesn't know what he's doing, on the other hand, will be extra-cautious and make sure he does everything right. These are called "lay-person" or "public-access" AEDs for a reason: You don't need any training to use them!

so, you are saying that the layperson who gets some training in AED's, will screw up, but the layperson who has never been trained, will be careful and skilled and will do it right???

i'm sorry, but what you are saying is, well... i think you know....

training, training, training... that's it...

i think, if the situation warranted AED use by a layperson, wouldn't you want the person with the higher level of training to operate it? the one who knows where the buttons are, has turned it on before, etc??

is he really gonna screw up so bad, but the guy who's never seen one will perform like a rock star?

come on, buddy....let's get serious here...

 

[JJR512]

These are called "lay-person" or "public-access" AEDs for a reason: You don't need any training to use them!

I stand by this statement.

Furthermore, I'll add that unless people are being given full CPR (including AED) training, save the money spent on AED-only training and buy another fully automatic AED for another part of the building.

 

[skyemt]

Physio-Control has a Lifepack AED model that only requires you to turn it on and connect the electrodes; this unit analyzes and shocks on its own. This is called "fully automatic" operation; some other brands probably have it, too. The other alternative is semi-automatic, on which you have to press the shock button when prompted by the unit.

I would suggest considering going with a fully automatic model and skipping any training. Or go with full CPR training. But for a fully automatic model, maybe just have people read the instructions and make sure they know where it is and....

http://www.physio-control.com/products/defibrillators/product-detail.aspx?id=556

So, you posted the link to the Physio-control AED that requires no training for laypeople, according to you...

this is directly from the link, which you yourself have posted:
"The Lifepak CR Plus Defibrillator is designed specifically for infrequent use and for use by people who's only training is IN CPR AND IN USING AED'S."

Buddy, you don't have your own facts straight here... public access means you don't have to have EMT level training to operate... NO WHERE does any literature anywhere claim that training is not necessary or beneficial.

you can stand by your statement, but according to the information that YOU have posted, it is dead wrong.

 

[firetender]

The problem with AED's is that you can't test drive them like with a car. They're not inexpensive and it really helps to feel good behind the electrodes before you make that investment. You don't know that unless you get to try it out in real-life (death?) conditions.

 

[emtbuff]

Okay so let me back up here I might not have been clear last night when I was typing as I've been working over night shifts.

I'm looking for some suggestions from other providers as what to look for when shoping for these type of AEDs. I'm think of the simi automatic type. I am in touch with a local rep. I'm just looking for some insight on things to look for questions to ask. Or any input on something We've seen in the field or personal lives that you didn't like. etc.

As for training we all have CPR training already but we have to recertify this year and will be doing Defib related training with it.

I'm also watching for any Grants that are available I do have one from the IDPH website but its dues this week and I'm not sure how quick we are going to be at it. So any help or advise here is appreciated.

 

[JJR512]

So, you posted the link to the Physio-control AED that requires no training for laypeople, according to you...

this is directly from the link, which you yourself have posted:
"The Lifepak CR Plus Defibrillator is designed specifically for infrequent use and for use by people who's only training is IN CPR AND IN USING AED'S."

Buddy, you don't have your own facts straight here... public access means you don't have to have EMT level training to operate... NO WHERE does any literature anywhere claim that training is not necessary or beneficial.

you can stand by your statement, but according to the information that YOU have posted, it is dead wrong.

Can you please tell me where you found that quote? I ask because I don't see it anywhere on the page that I linked to. Nor do I find it on the "Important Disclosure and Safety Information" page that's linked to from the page that I linked to. Nor do I find it in the online user's manual that can be downloaded from that page.

However, I DO find this on the page I linked to:

The LIFEPAK CR® Plus AED and LIFEPAK EXPRESS® AED were created for lay users in commercial and public settings. For use by the first person at the scene of a cardiac arrest, they are designed for minimally-trained rescuers.

Now maybe I'm just stupid, but to me, "lay user" means someone who is not trained in a particular task or profession. Furthermore, how can they make a statement that it's designed for "use by the first person at the scene...", if they intend for it to be used by someone "who's only training is IN CPR AND IN USING AED'S" (your words), when they can have no possible idea who the first person on the scene will be or what that person's training will be?

Now, I will give you this: What I just quoted from the page I originally linked to does say, "...they are designed for use by minimally-trained rescuers." Minimally-trained, while not specific, does imply some training. How much? Impossible to say. What I can say, though, having just read the manual, is that the manual does not say anywhere that the use must be trained in CPRs or AED. The only comment the manual makes about training is, "Do not attempt to operate this defibrillator unless thoroughly familiar with these operating instructions and the function of all controls, indicators, connectors, and accessories."

Personally, I feel it is misleading to describe a product as intended for use by lay people, but to secretly expect them to have at least some training, even if it's only having read the manual. The manual is 76 pages long! How can Physio-Control say the product is intended for use by the first person on the scene, and expect that person to have coincidentally already read the manual, or take the time to read it then when someone's dying on the floor in front of them? So if I was mistaken in believing that "lay person AEDs" are intended for use by lay people, then please forgive me. I was judging the product class on its own description.

I will ammend my statement to be that no formal training is necessary nor should be given (unless it is full CPR+AED), other than reading the manual.

emtbuff, it might be easier for us (well, at least for me) to provide meaningful help if we understood what the actual intended purpose is. You only mention that it's for a place that you work. What type of place is it? What type of people work there, visit there, and otherwise can be found there? You mention that it's for use by "Lay persons/trained personal" in your original post but in your most recent post you say you're all training in CPR, and will soon be re-certifying and adding defib training. Can you clarify?

If the AED is only going to be used by someone trained in CPR+AED, maybe just go with a regular AED like the Lifepack 1000 or something from Philips HeartStart, Zoll, or Welch-Allyn.

 

[emtbuff]

First of all thanks for your ganders on the whole training thing.

emtbuff, it might be easier for us (well, at least for me) to provide meaningful help if we understood what the actual intended purpose is. You only mention that it's for a place that you work. What type of place is it? What type of people work there, visit there, and otherwise can be found there? You mention that it's for use by "Lay persons/trained personal" in your original post but in your most recent post you say you're all training in CPR, and will soon be re-certifying and adding defib training. Can you clarify?

If the AED is only going to be used by someone trained in CPR+AED, maybe just go with a regular AED like the Lifepack 1000 or something from Philips HeartStart, Zoll, or Welch-Allyn.

I work for a campground that has camping from spring to fall and in the winter we mainly have shelter rentals. On peak weekends we can have a good 100 people camping plus another 100+ people in the park. With age range from baby to Senior citizens. We have 5 full time personal and during the summer we typically have 5 seasonal staff. The full time people are the ones that are going to be recertified in CPR this year Including AEDs. So the people who will be using the Defib are technically trained in it but for the most part we don't do a whole lot of medical related stuff out there. But since I've started there the medical stuff does get directed towards me.

So since I've been given the opportunity to look into defibs I wanna find the one that would be best for us to have on hand if needed. Along with being easy to use, ones that you have seen working and like or don't like.

I hope this helps you

 

[JJR512]

Biphasic AEDs are the newest type and the way to go. Since there will be trained people involved, stick with the semi-automatic type, which I think was your original inkling. Any of those major name brands I mentioned make quality products; personally, my first choice would be Physio-Control Lifepack, and my last choice would be Zoll. However, I think that the Phillips HeartStart models are probably the most well-respected AEDs out there now. I have no research or anecdotes to back that up, that's just based on a few words I've heard here and there.

 

[ffemt8978]

EMTBuff,

Have you checked with the riverboat in Sioux City? I know they have a grant program also but I can't remember the name of it. Sometimes the hospitals have charitable foundations as well (I know St. Luke's does).

 

[emtbuff]

Thanks again for your assistance. Found out the Grant I had been directed to isn't due till first part of February so we are going to try that and see what happens.

 

[MMiz]

If I were to purchase an AED for a public place, I would purchase the Zoll AED Plus. It has one pad for easy placement, and gives clear step by step directions. It even gives you feedback for chest compressions.

That said, I've never seen one in place. I see LifePak 500s (no longer being sold), LifePak CR+ units, and Philips HeartStart OnSite. I found AEDSuperstore real easy to work with, and they are more than helpful in providing honest feedback on the different units.

 

[Meursault]

One of my services just got the Zoll AED Plus. Haven't had a chance to use it on a code yet, but I've trained with it.

It's interesting. The compression feedback pad is attached to the defib pads, giving one big reverse Z-shape. The nice part about that is that it's completely impossible to position it wrong on an average-sized patient.
The other thing is, although I think compression feedback is a great idea, it just won't shut up.

 

[ckrump]

I work for a service that sells the Philips Heartstart. I am also on a volunteer QRU that needs to replace our LP 500 (too old to reprogram) and have reviewed the Welch Allen AED10 that has pediatric capabilities. Physio has a LP1000 that is promoted as replacing the LP 500. While all of them are sufficient for what we need as a QRU, our goal is to have something that is compatible with the monitor being used by our ALS ambulance so we don't have to take our patches off the patient (OUCH!) so the ambulance can place theirs. Price is also an issue - Philips is cheapest in our area. Send me your email address & I can forward you the information on the Philips.

 

[emtbuff]

ckrump you brought up another good question I've been pondering. Should or Pads match up with the local Ambulance service. So we don't have to switch pads? What are your feelings on this?

Thanks again guys.

 

[ckrump]

I believe that they should on behalf of the patient. Granted, if the patient doesn't survive, they will never know the pain we put them through because we weren't compatible with the ambulance service and had to pull the pads & their chest hair off so the ambulance can put their pads on. However, we are suppose to be advocates for our patients so I totally believe the pads we use on our QRU should be compatible with our responding ambulance(s).