Actual qualified medics.

[RocketMedic]

@TachticalFire89 , where in the world are you? If you're in Houston, I can offer some advice- this may hold true to a lot of other places too.

1. Fire means nothing if you're not a firefighter at present. It doesn't pay anything extra to the company, so no one cares right now. Even going through the hiring process for an FD is meaningless from the Crappy Private Dialysis Taxi POV- you're putting a certified name on a billable run ticket. That's all.

2. Most of the people you meet in that environment are either 1) new with aspirations to something better and needing 'experience' 2) new and/or severely lacking in the confidence and mojo to get onto something better and hoping BLS transport will magically imbue them with the mojo they lack 3) too stupid, fat, lazy, dumb or arrogant to get into 911 or 4) ambulance drivers. You're not going to get anything useful from anyone of these people, so why stick around?

3. Lots of shady crap happens in EMS, moreso in settings like private BLS transport. It's the Poo Pond of 'EMS'. Don't swim in the Poo Pond. You'll just get stinky, poopy and you'll be dumb for trying. Let them swim in the Poo Pond and do something better with your time.

4. You really don't need to be experienced in most of the USA to get an EMT gig with a decent 911/IFT service. If anything, EMT experience longer than a year or two can be a downside, in that you'll be perceived as having a lot of bad habits and a lack of motivation to excel or lead. Most of the best EMTs I know are those who went for quality first and didn't worry about arbitrary things like "experience" or whatnot.

5. Why did you become an EMT? Was it to help people, or was it because it's a part of being a Firefighter? There's no 'wrong' answer, but your answer defines how you look at the job. To be honest, when I read your post, I viewed a lot of it as taking offense that someone is doing essentially the same job as you without having to go through the same process as you did, and it seemed resentful- like you are more angry that you are essentially the same as someone who just showed up than you are about the fact that you're wasting your potential.

My advice? Decide what you really want to do and do it. If it's fire, find a fireman job and move to it. Uhaul is a thing, Indeed and Monster exist, hiring season is upon us. If it's Fire/EMS, then you need to realize that you've literally chosen a career path that I can summarize in "I should spray that hot fire with cold water from a safe distance while wearing some sort of protective gear" + "We should go with that INSERT PROBLEM(S) HERE to HOSPITAL"...not exactly rocket surgery. If it's EMS, then you need to realize that it's not about you, your partner, or even your company, it's about your patient and the service you can provide to them (and good service has good companies, decent treatment of you and your partner, etc. as prerequisites).

Good luck!

 

[SMC]

To: Transportjockey
EMT basic is not an easy certification to obtain. Our drop out rate for EMT-B is 50% or more each class. I know this is the same for other local EMT academies in the region. Once those who graduate make it to Paramedic level of instruction the drop out rate is less than 10%. You must have a good foundation before going to advanced. Now to some of us the block of instruction may not be difficult but when you look at the age group and maturity level of most basic students... Well it is the same result for most first semester college students.

Don't sweat it my fellow EMT. Just keep running calls.

John Martin EMT-P

 

[RocketMedic]

EMT-B is a pretty easy certification to obtain. Its taught at an eight-grade level.

 

[TransportJockey]

To: Transportjockey
EMT basic is not an easy certification to obtain. Our drop out rate for EMT-B is 50% or more each class. I know this is the same for other local EMT academies in the region. Once those who graduate make it to Paramedic level of instruction the drop out rate is less than 10%. You must have a good foundation before going to advanced. Now to some of us the block of instruction may not be difficult but when you look at the age group and maturity level of most basic students... Well it is the same result for most first semester college students.

Don't sweat it my fellow EMT. Just keep running calls.

John Martin EMT-P

Yes, actually it is. As RocketMedic states above, it's taught and the books are written at an 8-10th grade level. And seriously 50%? Sounds like your local EMS educators need to step back and learn what they're doing. Everywhere I've lived and taught in the drop out rates are swapped between what you are saying, w/ a higher attrition rate in medic classes. EMT is an easy certification and is, unfortunately, probably the lowest barrier to entry in medicine. In some states even CNAs have more instructional hours in their classes than a basic does.

 

[akflightmedic]

If you have a drop out rate of 50% or more (which I say is damn near impossible), then you have many other more serious issues at hand than the course itself. And if this is a private school versus college based model, there may be another more unscrupulous reason for a high drop out (force out after $$ is collected).

1. Your entry requirements and course expectations are not clearly explained - school problem
2. Your fees are high and the repayments are structured poorly - combo of both student and school
3. Your program once started is not what it stated it was in terms of hours, reliability or competency - school problem
4, The instructors suck (mean, dumb, sexist, etc. ) - school problem

Seriously, any for profit entity with a "50% or more" drop out rate after the program starts needs to seriously evaluate what they are doing wrong and how they are going to stay in business. Either you have one or more of the problems listed above or you will very soon have a reputation which will be near impossible to overcome and your student entry rate will decline.

There are no brownie points or leverage in obtaining an EMT job by saying you graduated from XYZ school versus ABC school. An employer will want to ensure you have a pulse, are reliable and functional and have a state license which will allow you to work so they can quickly burn you out with more hours you can handle and a pay scale at or around minimum wage.

 

[akflightmedic]

Just to further elaborate from a business model perspective solely, I think you have embellished your percentages in the negative.

NO school can survive with that ongoing drop out rate. Navy SEALS have a 60% drop out rate and I would say their schooling is infinitely harder.

Anyways, if a College based or a Private School had a continuous known drop out rate of 50%, they would lose money and would either cancel the course (at a college) or shutter the business (at a private). They are losing money over and over.

Now please bring real stats to the discussion and get over the fact that EMT is an easy, entry level course. A necessary one in our field of EMS, but one that is nothing more than basic first aid with a ridiculously low number of classroom and patient contact hours/experiences.

 

[DrParasite]

4. You really don't need to be experienced in most of the USA to get an EMT gig with a decent 911/IFT service. If anything, EMT experience longer than a year or two can be a downside, in that you'll be perceived as having a lot of bad habits and a lack of motivation to excel or lead. Most of the best EMTs I know are those who went for quality first and didn't worry about arbitrary things like "experience" or whatnot.

Maybe not by you, but most of the decent places I have worked won't even consider you until you are on your second card (although hiring standards did plummet after they expanded and the agency's new reputation shows). In fact, I would argue that few people want to be paired with a newbie EMT (unless they are training them), as they don't have the experience level to handle many situation without being told exactly what to do.

But again, I've heard some paramedics have to do that with their experienced EMT partners, so my experience might be a little bit skewed

 

[FK911]

So. Some background would be nice.
Where are you talking about.
This is a complex issue.
One of the first steps would be to legislate a law that restricts the use of the star of life to certified EMS agencies and personel

Number two. This is EMS in America and It needs change. Radically and rapidly.
Your a certified fireman???? What is that.
Never heard?
I am IFSAC, Florida has its own cert body
California is now IFSAC and State.
Most states and Canada are IFSAC
None use a term “fireman”
Your a EMT.
The other problem relies on the training level involved in EMT.... it needs to be updated and.... we need more non medical transport services that do not utilize EMS. This will lead to much less job opportunities unless we get the fire service out of prehospital medicine. Which is how the rest of the world does it.
Some states require that ambulance staff are at least EMT.
Never go to a supervisor.
Go to the state or county regulatory authority... the EMS OFFICE AND REPORT IT TO THEM
They have police power to shut down illegal operations.
Ya supervisor don’t
Next. Get into a medic program as fast as you can
There is nothing to learn as AN EMT except how to lift the gurney and how to talk with a patient.

 

[DrParasite]

Lets all take a step back..... the OP obtained his EMT on Oct 23, 2017..... and posted his rant on Nov 15th. He has been certified for less than a month when he observed these atrocities. I'm betting he came here expecting support, and since the community didn't provide what he expected, he bailed.

That's all being said

Your a certified fireman???? What is that.
Never heard?

a certified fireman (or firefighter, as it is more gender neutral), is a person who receives a certification with their name on it, with the state agency, and typically an accrediting body (IFSAC and ProBoard are the two big ones, but if your state doesn't use accreditation, than it's not a big deal if you never plan to leave your state) stamped on the certificate. I have certifications from both NJ and NC stating I have met the training requirements in both states, for firefighter 1 & 2, so I meet the requirements to work as a firefighter. So if you have never heard of the phrase, you need to do some additional research.

Never go to a supervisor.

wrong. your first step should be to make the agency aware that the issue is occurring, which involves notifying a person in authority from said agency. one bad crew is not indicative of the entire agency, but the professional thing to do would be to allow the agency to investigate any issues that are occurring first, and then go to the reporting agency if the issue isn't resolved.

Go to the state or county regulatory authority... the EMS OFFICE AND REPORT IT TO THEM
They have police power to shut down illegal operations.
Ya supervisor don’t

Your supervisor doesn't any any authority, but their supervisor can work to resolve the issue, either by re-education of the involved parties or terminating them from employment. Why would you call your supervisor over the actions of another company that you have nothing to do with? And just because one crew is breaking the rules doesn't mean the entire organization is.

There is nothing to learn as AN EMT except how to lift the gurney and how to talk with a patient.

Yes, you will learn how to avoid a$$h**** paramedics like this. There is actually a lot you should learn in EMT class. lifting a gurney is ones thing, so it talking to a patient. You also learn all the equipment on the ambulance, how to use it, and how to perform a patient assessment. You learn the basics. If you want to learn the advanced stuff, you take advanced EMS courses.

And you learn how not to talk down to people, which makes me wonder how you passed EMT class in the first place.

 

[Ensihoitaja]

And if

My advice? Decide what you really want to do and do it. If it's fire, find a fireman job and move to it. Uhaul is a thing, Indeed and Monster exist, hiring season is upon us. If it's Fire/EMS, then you need to realize that you've literally chosen a career path that I can summarize in "I should spray that hot fire with cold water from a safe distance while wearing some sort of protective gear" + "We should go with that INSERT PROBLEM(S) HERE to HOSPITAL"...not exactly rocket surgery. If it's EMS, then you need to realize that it's not about you, your partner, or even your company, it's about your patient and the service you can provide to them (and good service has good companies, decent treatment of you and your partner, etc. as prerequisites).

Good luck!

And if you can't trust a RocketMedic on Rocket Surgery, who can you trust?

 

[DesertMedic66]

Just to further elaborate from a business model perspective solely, I think you have embellished your percentages in the negative.

NO school can survive with that ongoing drop out rate. Navy SEALS have a 60% drop out rate and I would say their schooling is infinitely harder.

Anyways, if a College based or a Private School had a continuous known drop out rate of 50%, they would lose money and would either cancel the course (at a college) or shutter the business (at a private). They are losing money over and over.

Now please bring real stats to the discussion and get over the fact that EMT is an easy, entry level course. A necessary one in our field of EMS, but one that is nothing more than basic first aid with a ridiculously low number of classroom and patient contact hours/experiences.

Actually a 50% drop out rate is normal for the EMT program that I attended and teach for. It has been steady with no change based on instructors. Each semester we start with about 140 students and this semester we are only going to graduate a max of 60 students. The class I teach skills for started off with 35 students and is now at 16.

The class objectives are clearly defined and all students are required to attend a 4 hour orientation where all aspects of the class are covered. The student at that point is informed of what they can and will be dropped for.

The 3 common reason students are dropped are: attendance issues (students are only allowed to miss a max of 3 days which is 24 hours), not turning in their record of immunizations on time even though they are provided this information on the orientation day and told to turn it in or they will be dropped and lastly failure to maintain an 80% overall class grade and score a minimum of 75% on the mid-term and final exam.

The lower the overall class age is the higher the drop out rate is. The oldest person in this current class is 26. The vast majority of our students are coming from high school where it is impossible to fail, the teachers will hold your hand, and “no student left behind”. In college those things change. Heck we still have parents calling and asking why their 18+ son or daughter failed out of the program. The weekend class we have went from 35 to 28 students. This class has an overall higher average age (roughly 27 years overall). This same instructor last semester had an overall age of 22 and started with 35 and only graduated 12.

For one semester we attempted to put a prerequisite of English 101 for the class. While it did help with overall pass rates our starting class sizes where so small we almost had to cancel the classes for that semester so now it is a recommended prerequisite.

Our paramedic program is completely different. The max class size is around 25 with a very low drop out rate. The students in the medic program are older, have life experience, have field experience, have prerequisites, have passed 3 tests to enter (this fails a lot of students out), and realize that if they want to pass the class then it is their own responsibility.

The college has no plans at all of shutting down the EMT program because of the drop out rate and are instead planning on expanding it in several ways.

 

[akflightmedic]

You provided stats which indicate failure on the student's part. Now go read SMC's post and comment on the fact that they are proud the drop out rate is so high due to how DIFFICULT it is to obtain EMT and how you need a solid foundation before hand in order to do so. This was the angle I wrote my reply from and I stand by that.

It seems your school has a much wider pool of applicants to maintain this type of drop out rate and still remain competitive in business. It also sounds like it has a healthy paramedic program. I would like to know more cause it is counter intuitive to me.

I will also still stand by....obtaining EMT from XYZ who has a drop out/fail rate of 50%+ versus obtaining EMT from ABC who has 99.99% success rate means absolutely nothing at EMT hiring time. It comes down to are you qualified, did you interview ok and do you have a pulse.

 

[DrParasite]

Actually a 50% drop out rate is normal for the EMT program that I attended and teach for. It has been steady with no change based on instructors. Each semester we start with about 140 students and this semester we are only going to graduate a max of 60 students. The class I teach skills for started off with 35 students and is now at 16.

140 students in a single class? that's insane. I've taught classes where we had 24 students, and it's tough to adequately evaluate all the students, particularly when it comes to skills. I can't imagine trying to maintain any meaningful interaction between instructor and students when you have 140 students.

The class objectives are clearly defined and all students are required to attend a 4 hour orientation where all aspects of the class are covered. The student at that point is informed of what they can and will be dropped for.

The 3 common reason students are dropped are: attendance issues (students are only allowed to miss a max of 3 days which is 24 hours), not turning in their record of immunizations on time even though they are provided this information on the orientation day and told to turn it in or they will be dropped and lastly failure to maintain an 80% overall class grade and score a minimum of 75% on the mid-term and final exam.

Mine too, but we typically lose only 35% of our students, and that's including the people who start day 1 and realize this isn't for them. They usually get dropped for overall attendance or overall grades, particularly on Fisdap exams. We have also had older students who can't adapt to technology, but the main reason people fail is they think it will be easy and don't bother putting in the work in reading and studying enough to pass the course.

For one semester we attempted to put a prerequisite of English 101 for the class. While it did help with overall pass rates our starting class sizes where so small we almost had to cancel the classes for that semester so now it is a recommended prerequisite.

I don't think I ever took English 101..... But yeah, raising entry requirements will surely diminish applicants.

Our paramedic program is completely different. The max class size is around 25 with a very low drop out rate. The students in the medic program are older, have life experience, have field experience, have prerequisites, have passed 3 tests to enter (this fails a lot of students out), and realize that if they want to pass the class then it is their own responsibility.

This too. Many in the paramedic program have worked in EMS for years, and understand how much of a commitment it is. They also WANT to be paramedics, as a career; with EMT, they are either dipping their toe in the EMS field, doing something on the side, or using it for a short term basis (because it will look good on a med school app, etc).

If someone doesn't complete EMT, it's not big loss, because it doesn't really affect them. Most people who are in the paramedic program are either working FT in EMS and are looking for a "promotion" to paramedic, or are looking to get a full time job as a paramedic. I think out of the 40 people in the last non-degree paramedic program, maybe 5 didn't last until the last month for various reasons.

You provided stats which indicate failure on the student's part. Now go read SMC's post and comment on the fact that they are proud the drop out rate is so high due to how DIFFICULT it is to obtain EMT and how you need a solid foundation before hand in order to do so. This was the angle I wrote my reply from and I stand by that.

I'm not proud of a high dropout rate: I am proud of a near 98% first time pass on the NREMT exam, and the fact that I refuse to simply pass people for showing up to class.

I will also still stand by....obtaining EMT from XYZ who has a drop out/fail rate of 50%+ versus obtaining EMT from ABC who has 99.99% success rate means absolutely nothing at EMT hiring time. It comes down to are you qualified, did you interview ok and do you have a pulse.

You're right. where you got the training is irrelevant. Unless you work in an area that is served by a county agency, and has several of their personnel who also work as instructors for your program. and know who they would want to work with, and who to avoid.

And you're right, many places only require a patch, a pulse, and maybe the ability to sit through an interview. The better places require written exams, scenarios, and maybe even a panel interview with existing personnel. And the ability to pass a probationary period.

 

[DesertMedic66]

140 students in a single class? that's insane. I've taught classes where we had 24 students, and it's tough to adequately evaluate all the students, particularly when it comes to skills. I can't imagine trying to maintain any meaningful interaction between instructor and students when you have 140 students.

Sorry for the confusion. During each semester we have a total of 4 EMT classing occurring with 4 different lead instructors. We have a Monday class, a Wednesday class, a Tuesday/Thursday night class, and a Saturday class. We offer the wide variety of days so that the majority of people who are interested in taking the class have a day that works for them. Each class is limited to a max of 35 students. For skills we use a 1:6-7 ratio of staff to students.