Self Defense for EMS

[thatJeffguy]

The second you die, your career is over.

I can always find another career.

A few things I've noticed here, especially from the anti-self defense crowd. Having a sidearm doesn't mean that it's Option 1, it's just another tool in your wide box of tools. The notion that an other wise rational and sane individual would, upon possessing "an item", turn into the sort of deranged lunatic that would shoot a hostile drunk or a combative dementia patient is absurd. The use of a firearm, or any deadly weapon, is the final option, utilized when (and each state is slightly different in this) you are engaged in combat with a severe disparity of force. A little old lady slapping your hand away when you go to check her breathing? Probably a "NO SHOOT" situation. A drunk that's just committed vehicular homicide and is up for his third strike that pulls a knife on you and starts slashing? Certainly a candidate for consideration of the judicial use of a firearm. Simply having "an item" doesn't mean it's your first plan of action.

Also, their is no statute that I'm aware of that would open you to prosecution for an otherwise justifiable shooting simply because of your career choice. We're discussing "law" and "company policy". If someone initiates force against me, to a degree that I feel my life is in danger, my only goal is to stop that threat. If I've followed applicable state laws, I won't be prosecuted. Perhaps I'll lose my job, perhaps I won't. In a number of situations like this, being the "good guy" and coming out alive after a justifiable shoot is sometimes enough to sweep the issue under the rug. Maybe it's not and maybe I'd lose my position. Well, I'd have lost my position if I were killed, so what's the difference?

While I do hold issue with that idea I do agree with a lot of the thoughts I'm seeing expressed here. A concealed firearm should be CONCEALED well, in a decent IWB holster that prevents printing and allows the user to maintain control of the firearm even when in "odd" situations. The liability from a small sidearm slipping free of it's ankle holster and discharging, or being lost in the shuffle and picked up by someone, would be staggering and would be placed on the individual that didn't properly secure their carry piece. If I'm carrying, odds are no one will ever know unless I'm compelled to use it and, if this were to happen, I'd like to think that everyone involved (minus the decedent criminal) would be happy that someone had the wherewithal to bring an end to the life-threatening behavior.

Our local PD teaches a basic self defense program based on the Mondanock "system" including the use of the Kubaton. I'd highly recommend all EMS personnel taking a class such as this and carrying a Kubaton after learning it's proper use. It's all about escalation of force, a Kubaton can subdue, through pain compliance, an unruly drunk or a hostile at close quarters. A mini-Maglite can be used as a Kubaton and it wouldn't even beg the question as to the reason you're carrying the object.

 

[Brandon O]

Some food for thought is that you will probably never be legally held to a higher standard than a civilian when it comes to defending yourself. That is, you are entitled to the same use of force as anyone else if you reasonably feel yourself in jeopardy.

However, the fact that you won't be arrested for battery doesn't mean that you won't lose your job or even your cert for violating one policy or another. Or be sued in civil tort. These are more or less separate spheres.

I have a little website that runs through the important stuff as far as the legalities on self defense go in the US; it's not specific to EMS but might be a beneficial read for most. Check out http://useofforce.us/

 

[zaboomafoozarg]

If you need self defense, the scene is not safe! :excl:

 

[thatJeffguy]

If you need self defense, the scene is not safe! :excl:

While I've not the experience to speak on EMS-related safety I have spent large amounts of time in remote wilderness areas and crowded cities and I've learned that no place is worthy of having self-defense left behind. Violent crimes occur in churches, schools, malls, at private houses for holiday gatherings, in bars, in restaurants, on well lit streets, in dark smelly alley's.

I'm not saying that I find the probability high that an EMS responder will be put in a situation where deadly force is the best option but I do find the probability to be higher than "zero". Thus I feel I should allow each individual the right to deal with this risk in a manner they feel appropriate. Of course, if they injure someone through negligence, be it with their hands, an O2 bottle, a sidearm or a fire axe, they'll have to pay the price. I don't know any civilian that carries a sidearm that truly wishes to bring about the nightmare, financially, psychologically and legally, that comes with even a totally justifiable defensive shooting.

 

[dragonjbynight]

If you need self defense, the scene is not safe! :excl:

....http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qRJGhCtUyzQ quick example.

Self defense is never a waste of time. In someones signature (sorry, can't remember who) it states the scene is never safe. Ask any RN who has spent some time at there job, the nicest patient can become combative with little to no warning. Ever deal with a patient with DT's? I have seen one come out of surgery and punch a nurse in the face. It can be the same for an emt on a rig or at a scene. LEO's can't be everywhere at once.

Knowing how to defend yourself, when to use it, and how to react is a necessary tool for any responder. With that being said, I pose this question:

Should CPI certification be required of all medical responders?

Most if not all hospitals have to have their security trained in this manner to be able to attempt to diffuse a situation or to use physical intervention if necessary. The holds and restraints taught in this program are specifically designed to cause no harm to patients.

 

[firecoins]

The second you die, your career is over.

I can always find another career.

I am still alive without the gun. Good luck with the other career.

 

[VentMedic]

Just reading some of the pro-gun posts here it is easy to determine the level of maturity either by age or mentality. Those that also trying to rationalize their need for a weapon have posted with similar arguments and passion in other places about why they so desperately need a light bar and other accessories for their tricked out POV. Actually, those with the pro-gun arguments are exactly the ones I would NOT want to see possess a gun for any reason and especially not on an ambulance or while coming into contact with the public or their partner.

 

[mcdonl]

A time and a place...

Just reading some of the pro-gun posts here it is easy to determine the level of maturity either by age or mentality. Those that also trying to rationalize their need for a weapon have posted with similar arguments and passion in other places about why they so desperately need a light bar and other accessories for their tricked out POV. Actually, those with the pro-gun arguments are exactly the ones I would NOT want to see possess a gun for any reason and especially not on an ambulance or while coming into contact with the public or their partner.

I am very pro gun, pro second amendment and pro hunting... but I do not do any of that at work. Not in my day job, and not in my volunteer service.

Actually, the last few weeks have shed the light on a couple of tricky CCW situations. 1st, in regards to EMS/FD... 1st rule of EMS... make sure the scene is safe before rendering service, and first rule of fire fighting... NO FREELANCING... CCW in this particular industry seems to cause *ME* an internal struggle.... if I enter a scene where I need to get into a gun fight to save my life, then I have probably entered a scene before I should, and wouldn't I also be free lancing as it is not my job to secure the scene therefore I am stepping way out of my role?

I do not buy into the having my gun end up in the wrong hands, or any of that uneducated anti garbage, I am well trained in weapons retention, self defense and shoot competitively but I do feel as though it lends itself to a lot of confusion. (PS... not a whacker h34r:, I shoot IDPA in jeans, a t-shirt and a normal jacket... no mall ninja here... just like the shooting sports....)

Also, as a permit holder I understand and accept the legal fallout that may result in the use of lethal force to protect myself, but I am not the chief, nor a selectman so I have no right putting that burden on my town or my department. :excl:

The other situation, it is a "little" off topic, but related. Recently our community has lost LEO coverage for a good part of the evening, and have had many vehicle break ins and vandleism... including the fire station near my house. So, I have started a neighborhood watch. Again, I have carried for many years because this is America, and you may not like it but too bad... it is my right... but again, here I am in a situation where I am far more likely to need to defend myself (Neighborhood watch this time.... not EMS scene....) and the CCW adds confusion. If I am going to the corner store to get milk, and an armed robbery breaks out and my life is in danger, I can defend myself... not a big deal (Yeah... figuratively speaking.....) but if I am out on a neighborhood patrol, I am all of a sudden Charles Bronson (Only better looking....) and out looking to "off some punk"... so, when I do my evening cruise of the neighborhood I leave my CCW at home.

Oh the irony...

 

[firecoins]

I am pro 2nd amendment. I think we all have the right bear arms. http://video.google.com/videosearch?q=family+guy+bear+arms&hl=en&emb=0&aq=f#

I don't think guns belong on EMS personnel. Off duty its your own choice.

 

[EMSLaw]

first rule of fire fighting... NO FREELANCING...

I'm not a FF, so bear with me here... What does that mean? I doubt anyone is cruising around in their PO fire apparatus, just waiting for a structure fire to pop up?

 

[firecoins]

I'm not a FF, so bear with me here... What does that mean? I doubt anyone is cruising around in their PO fire apparatus, just waiting for a structure fire to pop up?

You mean I shouldn't go around in my own ladder truck looking for structure fires?

 

[EMSLaw]

You mean I shouldn't go around in my own ladder truck looking for structure fires?

At least then you'd have something to put all your spare light bars, sirens, and air horns on, and a place to keep your jump bag.

 

[mcdonl]

I will take a shot at it (Pun Intended....)

I am in no way shape or form qualified to answer anyones question about FF, but my understanding of Freelancing is doing something out the expected SOG/SOP's.... like taking safety into your own hands at a scene.

Make sense? Am I understanding that correctly?

 

[medichopeful]

In someones signature (sorry, can't remember who) it states the scene is never safe.

*Raises hand*

 

[thatJeffguy]

I am pro 2nd amendment. I think we all have the right bear arms. http://video.google.com/videosearch?q=family+guy+bear+arms&hl=en&emb=0&aq=f#

I don't think guns belong on EMS personnel. Off duty its your own choice.

You think because we're working a job, we aren't allowed to protect ourselves? Especially a job that brings with in inherent risks?

Do you understand the Constitution is a list of our inalienable rights? Do you understand that agreeing with "shall not be infringed .", then turning the "." into a "... except!" flies in the face of the notion of Republican government? Do you understand that a "right" isn't something bequeathed to us mere mortals by the gods of the electorate? I, somehow, don't feel you do.

Do you feel that prayer belongs on EMS personnel? How about religious artifacts, under a piece of clothing? If so, perhaps you can cite where the Constitution makes separate allowances for the First and Second Amendment.

Better yet; if you're "on duty" and a cop asks to search you, do you still have the right to say no?

The Constitution isn't multiple choice, it's all or nothing.

 

[firecoins]

Do you understand the Constitution is a list of our inalienable rights? Do you understand that agreeing with "shall not be infringed .", then turning the "." into a "... except!" flies in the face of the notion of Republican government? Do you understand that a "right" isn't something bequeathed to us mere mortals by the gods of the electorate? I, somehow, don't feel you do. Do you feel that prayer belongs on EMS personnel? How about religious artifacts, under a piece of clothing? If so, perhaps you can cite where the Constitution makes separate allowances for the First and Second Amendment.

Your working a job. Your employer has the right to not employ you or not. Carrying a gun puts your employer at much higher legal risk. They will not employ you if you carry a gun. You can exorcise your rights somewhere else.

Your employer sets the uniform. If your religious articles and gun are against theu uniform policy, good luck job hunting.

Better yet; if you're "on duty" and a cop asks to search you, do you still have the right to say no?

Again you fail understand that your eplyer is free to not employ you. Your employer can randomly drug test you. If you disagree, you will be job hunting.

The Constitution isn't multiple choice, it's all or nothing.

You clearly do not understand that it appllies to your employer as well. They do not need you to put them in danger of legal liability because you want to exercvise your rights on their time.

 

[thatJeffguy]

Your working a job. Your employer has the right to not employ you or not. Carrying a gun puts your employer at much higher legal risk. They will not employ you if you carry a gun. You can exorcise your rights somewhere else.

So, they'll guarantee my safety? If they can't guarantee my safety, how can they regulate what I carry to do the task myself?

When I go to a jail, I'm not upset that I've got to check my firearm. I'm surrounded by armed guards that are required to provide protection. When I'm in the middle of no-where, I've got no protection other than that which I provide myself.

Your employer sets the uniform. If your religious articles and gun are against theu uniform policy, good luck job hunting.

If I were religious, I'd wear my religious article concealed by my clothing and they'd never need to know it was there. I feel the same about a sidearm.

Again you fail understand that your eplyer is free to not employ you. Your employer can randomly drug test you. If you disagree, you will be job hunting.

I completely understand that, thanks for the clarification. I'm just not that concerned about it frankly. In the immediate future I'll most likely be hired as a armorer for a police department and I'll be a sworn and deputized LEO. Even if that does not happen, I'll still wear my "religious articles" and such under my clothes and no one will even know they exist.

You clearly do not understand that it appllies to your employer as well. They do not need you to put them in danger of legal liability because you want to exercvise your rights on their time.

My "alive liability" matters more to me than a job or the legal liability of my employer. As I said, if I make a choice and lose my job, that's not that big of an issue to me. However, if I make a choice and end up dead or injured severely, that is a bit of an issue to me.

Are you basing your theory that "EMT's with guns will be frequently shooting patients" on something, perhaps some past anecdotal evidence you could cite, or are we just playing the "all guns r bad" song on a scratched record?


Let me ask you what you'd do if a drunk woke up in your ambulance, pulled a knife and started swinging. Would you, in a situation where seconds matter, wait minutes for law enforcement to show up, or would you "do something" with "whatever was at hand" to save your life? I'd pick the "do something" option and I'd prefer that "whatever was at hand" would be a highly effective instrument that would allow me to put an end to the threat to my life without putting my life in danger.

Sure, martial arts are fine, but why should a 90lb female EMT have to dedicate years of her life studying to defend herself effectively against a 350lb muscle-bound drunk with a weapon when she could instead take a two day class with a sidearm and be prepared to deal with the issue?

*edit*

While we're dealing with scenarios;

http://www.boston.com/news/local/ma...ury_suspect_inept_but_serious_terror_plotter/

They plotted to shoot shoppers and emergency responders at a suburban mall, but scrapped the plan because they could not get their hands on automatic weapons, according to the FBI.

Terrorist attacks are honestly at the bottom of my "threat matrix" living out here, but it's entirely plausible that they could happen. If they happen and if the terrorists are specifically attacking emergency responders, why can't I bring the most useful tool along with me?

 

[ZVNEMT]

*i admit i havent read the whole post... or even most of it, but heres my 2 cents*

I myself am all about owning and carrying firearms, on my own time. but consider this, when is it reasonable to shoot someone? only when they are using equally lethal force against you. another thing to consider, it is not uncommon for someone to be assaulted by more than one person... it could just be one guy threatening to shoot you... or it could be a whole gang of arms punkass kids. then it becomes a question of how many can you bring down with you. or maybe they require EMTs to carry firearms/tasers... the cops have alot of issues with misuse, lots of dumb cops... guess what... there's lots of dumb medics too. maybe alot of mentally unstable medics. only a matter of time until a medic goes postal in the station.

I feel relatively safe on my rig w/o a weapon, both my partner and I are pretty tough guys w/ martial arts experience. I'm sure we can handle crazies and crackheads.

 

[mcdonl]

For further reading pleasure...

If anyone is considering carrying a CCW, I would recommend reading In the Gravest Extremes by Mas Ayoob. (Spelling may be off....)

 

[ZVNEMT]

While we're dealing with scenarios;

http://www.boston.com/news/local/ma...ury_suspect_inept_but_serious_terror_plotter/



Terrorist attacks are honestly at the bottom of my "threat matrix" living out here, but it's entirely plausible that they could happen. If they happen and if the terrorists are specifically attacking emergency responders, why can't I bring the most useful tool along with me?

do you think a sidearm will help much against terrorists with AK-47s? they'll probably have the benefit of cover, where you won't. regardless, i don; think the police would let you get in until the scene is secure, or maybe send you with an escort. you are not a cop, you're there for your Pt, not to hunt terrorists. lets say you are armed and for whatever reason you go in, knowing there are people who might try to kill you, will you recognize them right away, tell them apart from a civilian?

I'm tired of these gun-totting hero fantasies... it's not going to workout the way you imagine it. a gun doesn't give you any special power over evil.

armed or not, if i hear gunshots on scene, i'm not going out of the way to find out where they're coming from.