Paramedic (Associates Degree)

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Scoobydooz

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Why?


In the State of Oregon you must have an Associates to be able to have your paramedic. What's the point?

I'm arguing from a standpoint, I've completed all the pre-recs for Paramedic, and I can honestly say everything I learned in A&P was like my Basic Class. Maybe I just had a great EMT instructor I don't know. I did well in my A&P class and it frustrates me that I have a friend that didn't do so well and he will not be able to enter into the Paramedic program because he got a C in the first part of A&P.


I ran into a Medic the other day trying to convince me how knowing the Molecular Cell level of a patient when they are in MI is important. I asked how, and he couldn't answer BECAUSE ITS NOT! If you can illustrate how knowing the Cell is beneficial to someones survival on the field please enlighten me.


I think it's absolutely absurd. I have a Masters in Civil Engineering. To get my degree I actually had to explain, and lay out the plans of a Water Plant. That's it, that was my schooling. Yes it was long. There were no silly pre-recs it was learn the skills, learn what you need not other useless crap that has nothing to do with what you'll be doing.


I was told the other day that Engineers don't have to be the best because no ones life is on the line... Are you kidding me. You've all seen first hand when an Engineer messes something up, people die. That Water Plant I designed, provides Fire Protection for a city. People seem to forget the Water Plant was created for Fire Protection, not for drinking.


It's not about the Epi-1:10,000 you gave the patient. Or how well you know the Body. It's how you are as a human being. Take care of your patient, then you'll actually truly save someone.
 
Scoobydooz said:
Why?


In the State of Oregon you must have an Associates to be able to have your paramedic. What's the point?
The more education you have in the specailty, the better you will perform in the field.
I'm arguing from a standpoint, I've completed all the pre-recs for Paramedic, and I can honestly say everything I learned in A&P was like my Basic Class. Maybe I just had a great EMT instructor I don't know. I did well in my A&P class and it frustrates me that I have a friend that didn't do so well and he will not be able to enter into the Paramedic program because he got a C in the first part of A&P.
usually you can retake a class and they'll give the higher grade

I ran into a Medic the other day trying to convince me how knowing the Molecular Cell level of a patient when they are in MI is important. I asked how, and he couldn't answer BECAUSE ITS NOT! If you can illustrate how knowing the Cell is beneficial to someones survival on the field please enlighten me.
Using a pulse oximeter to measure the hemoglobin content of your blood
Which is in red blood cells

I think it's absolutely absurd. I have a Masters in Civil Engineering. To get my degree I actually had to explain, and lay out the plans of a Water Plant. That's it, that was my schooling. Yes it was long. There were no silly pre-recs it was learn the skills, learn what you need not other useless crap that has nothing to do with what you'll be doing.

are you directly dealing with an living organism (human) and providing medical care to them as a civil engineer.
I was told the other day that Engineers don't have to be the best because no ones life is on the line... Are you kidding me. You've all seen first hand when an Engineer messes something up, people die. That Water Plant I designed, provides Fire Protection for a city. People seem to forget the Water Plant was created for Fire Protection, not for drinking.
Hydrants are on the same main as the line that goes into your house. FD can draft as well eliminating the water plant


It's not about the Epi-1:10,000 you gave the patient. Or how well you know the Body. It's how you are as a human being. Take care of your patient, then you'll actually truly save someone.
Click to expand...
An understanding of the human anatomy and physiology goes a long way in PT care. Blood goes round and round air goes in and out. Deviation is bad.


Regarding your college.
Talk to a consoler.
 
Scoobydooz said:
Why?


In the State of Oregon you must have an Associates to be able to have your paramedic. What's the point?

I'm arguing from a standpoint, I've completed all the pre-recs for Paramedic, and I can honestly say everything I learned in A&P was like my Basic Class. Maybe I just had a great EMT instructor I don't know. I did well in my A&P class and it frustrates me that I have a friend that didn't do so well and he will not be able to enter into the Paramedic program because he got a C in the first part of A&P.


I ran into a Medic the other day trying to convince me how knowing the Molecular Cell level of a patient when they are in MI is important. I asked how, and he couldn't answer BECAUSE ITS NOT! If you can illustrate how knowing the Cell is beneficial to someones survival on the field please enlighten me.


I think it's absolutely absurd. I have a Masters in Civil Engineering. To get my degree I actually had to explain, and lay out the plans of a Water Plant. That's it, that was my schooling. Yes it was long. There were no silly pre-recs it was learn the skills, learn what you need not other useless crap that has nothing to do with what you'll be doing.


I was told the other day that Engineers don't have to be the best because no ones life is on the line... Are you kidding me. You've all seen first hand when an Engineer messes something up, people die. That Water Plant I designed, provides Fire Protection for a city. People seem to forget the Water Plant was created for Fire Protection, not for drinking.


It's not about the Epi-1:10,000 you gave the patient. Or how well you know the Body. It's how you are as a human being. Take care of your patient, then you'll actually truly save someone.
Click to expand...

Instituting a degree requirement is a way for our field to move forward and gain increasing recognition as a legitimate profession, instead of being viewed as just another technical vocation for people who couldn't hack it in other degree-requiring fields like nursing. With a degree requirement, pay increases and working conditions improve. Can't really argue with those goals.

I would have to strongly disagree with your assertion that knowing fundamentals of things like anatomy and cellular function is useless. By understanding the form and function of the human body, providers are able to make more intelligent decisions about patient care based on a far more complete understanding of how the body's systems and processes interact.

While it is unfortunate that the medic you encountered wasn't able to explain how the molecular functioning of myocardial cells is important to treatment of an MI, understanding physiology on this level plays a large role in how providers approach treatment. Knowing the electrical pathways of the heart and how ions and oxygen are essential to the proper functioning of the myocardium allows you to make intelligent decisions about treatment when you encounter dysfunction as a provider. For example, knowing what potassium and sodium ions do in the individual cells and how your treatments can address imbalance is a critical component of understanding cardiac function and treatment in the field.

Certainly, being an empathetic and compassionate provider is a critical component of treating the patient as a whole. However, technical skills and knowledge are just as important. Being a good communicator, while important, won't do much to help you treat a coding patient in the back of an ambulance.

I'm not sure what you were hoping to accomplish with this post other than proving to the rest of us that you have the wrong sort of attitude for EMS presently. Listen. Learn. Ask intelligent questions. But don't come into this field with the attitude that you're hot s*** just because you have a masters degree in an unrelated field. The folks who "know it all" coming into this field are the ones who wash out the fastest.
 
Scoobydooz said:
Why?


In the State of Oregon you must have an Associates to be able to have your paramedic. What's the point?

I'm arguing from a standpoint, I've completed all the pre-recs for Paramedic, and I can honestly say everything I learned in A&P was like my Basic Class. Maybe I just had a great EMT instructor I don't know. I did well in my A&P class and it frustrates me that I have a friend that didn't do so well and he will not be able to enter into the Paramedic program because he got a C in the first part of A&P.


I ran into a Medic the other day trying to convince me how knowing the Molecular Cell level of a patient when they are in MI is important. I asked how, and he couldn't answer BECAUSE ITS NOT! If you can illustrate how knowing the Cell is beneficial to someones survival on the field please enlighten me.


I think it's absolutely absurd. I have a Masters in Civil Engineering. To get my degree I actually had to explain, and lay out the plans of a Water Plant. That's it, that was my schooling. Yes it was long. There were no silly pre-recs it was learn the skills, learn what you need not other useless crap that has nothing to do with what you'll be doing.


I was told the other day that Engineers don't have to be the best because no ones life is on the line... Are you kidding me. You've all seen first hand when an Engineer messes something up, people die. That Water Plant I designed, provides Fire Protection for a city. People seem to forget the Water Plant was created for Fire Protection, not for drinking.


It's not about the Epi-1:10,000 you gave the patient. Or how well you know the Body. It's how you are as a human being. Take care of your patient, then you'll actually truly save someone.
Click to expand...

Having a required 2yr degree is a great idea, it makes us a "Profession" not just a trade.

A&P at the College level and EMT Basic level are not the same. I am not sure how or what your circumstance was in this experience... You obviously had a good Basic instructor and a POOR A&P professor.

And it IS about the meds you give and how well you know the body, and equally it is about how well you treat someone as well(Customer service wise)

I do not treat a patient without knowing the med and its effects on the body

Nurses, MDs, Resp Techs, Rad Techs, Surgical Techs, LVNs, and Sonographers ALL have to take A&P, why not a Paramedic? They should
 
Fish said:
Having a required 2yr degree is a great idea, it makes us a "Profession" not just a trade.

A&P at the College level and EMT Basic level are not the same. I am not sure how or what your circumstance was in this experience... You obviously had a good Basic instructor and a POOR A&P professor.
Click to expand...

Agreed.

I'm going to go with the latter or maybe a combination of the two.

Good paramedicine, key word there is 'good', takes more than knowing "see A, do B expect to see C". Knowing why you're doing something rather than doing it "because protocol says so" will help you tons.

People don't fit protocols. Sure you can make them fit but is that really what's best for the patient?

Like others have said, if we want to become recognized as a profession we need to move to degree requirements. A 2 year degree is a start but I think many agree, on here at least, that 4 years should be the minimum eventually.

So your friend slacked off in A&P and now can't get into the medic program? That's unfortunate for him, maybe he should have worked harder? Especially since your A&P class was so easy and exactly what you got in EMT-B :rolleyes:

You, my friend, have struck a nerve that opens a giant can of worms on this site that never ends well, good on ya!
 
Fish said:
Nurses, MDs, Resp Techs, Rad Techs, Surgical Techs, LVNs, and Sonographers ALL have to take A&P, why not a Paramedic? They should
Click to expand...

Actually, MDs don't.

It is broken down into 2 seperate disciplines.

There is Human gross anatomy. (sometimes called clinical anatomy, if it is not taught in the traditional model)


Physiology is a seperate class.

(accepting that there is some deviation in problem based learning and other integrated medical curriculums, but they are not the traditional standard which is still professed in most of the world)
 
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Scoobydooz said:
I did well in my A&P class and it frustrates me that I have a friend that didn't do so well and he will not be able to enter into the Paramedic program because he got a C in the first part of A&P.
Click to expand...

Did you know paramedics carry medications that can cause real harm if given inappropriately?

Did you know paramedics are allowed to perform invasive procedures with real risks of harm to patients?

It is probably for the best.

Scoobydooz said:
I ran into a Medic the other day trying to convince me how knowing the Molecular Cell level of a patient when they are in MI is important. I asked how, and he couldn't answer BECAUSE ITS NOT! If you can illustrate how knowing the Cell is beneficial to someones survival on the field please enlighten me.
Click to expand...

You probably don't even need to read an ECG too. Hell, who cares whether it is calcium channels or fast sodium channels.

Irrelevant. Treat the patient right?

Does your average paramedic need to understand zones of ischemia and endocardial versus epicardial voltage gradients? Nope. Do they need to understand primary versus secondary causes of ST-elevation? Nope.

But that is also why they'll call a STEMI when its not.

Scoobydooz said:
I think it's absolutely absurd. I have a Masters in Civil Engineering. To get my degree I actually had to explain, and lay out the plans of a Water Plant. That's it, that was my schooling. Yes it was long. There were no silly pre-recs it was learn the skills, learn what you need not other useless crap that has nothing to do with what you'll be doing.
Click to expand...

You probably took multivariate calculus, maybe some vector calc, physics (Newtonian, E&M, maybe non-Newtonian, dunno what school you went to), probably some chemistry...you know...pre-reqs.

Do you know what we call pre-reqs in medicine? Chemistry, biology, anatomy, physiology, pathophysiology....hmm.

Your attitude as an engineer is frankly scary, but my view may be colored as I work in an industry which has an almost unhealthy focus on safety. (Defense in depth, questioning attitudes, etc)

Scoobydooz said:
It's not about the Epi-1:10,000 you gave the patient. Or how well you know the Body. It's how you are as a human being. Take care of your patient, then you'll actually truly save someone.
Click to expand...

You probably won't "truly" save someone with such a minimal amount of knowledge, but that's just my experience. A broken clock is right twice a day.

You should probably rethink your foray into medicine. For our patient's sake.
 
Scoobydooz said:
Why?


In the State of Oregon you must have an Associates to be able to have your paramedic. What's the point?

I'm arguing from a standpoint, I've completed all the pre-recs for Paramedic, and I can honestly say everything I learned in A&P was like my Basic Class. Maybe I just had a great EMT instructor I don't know. I did well in my A&P class and it frustrates me that I have a friend that didn't do so well and he will not be able to enter into the Paramedic program because he got a C in the first part of A&P.


I ran into a Medic the other day trying to convince me how knowing the Molecular Cell level of a patient when they are in MI is important. I asked how, and he couldn't answer BECAUSE ITS NOT! If you can illustrate how knowing the Cell is beneficial to someones survival on the field please enlighten me.


I think it's absolutely absurd. I have a Masters in Civil Engineering. To get my degree I actually had to explain, and lay out the plans of a Water Plant. That's it, that was my schooling. Yes it was long. There were no silly pre-recs it was learn the skills, learn what you need not other useless crap that has nothing to do with what you'll be doing.


I was told the other day that Engineers don't have to be the best because no ones life is on the line... Are you kidding me. You've all seen first hand when an Engineer messes something up, people die. That Water Plant I designed, provides Fire Protection for a city. People seem to forget the Water Plant was created for Fire Protection, not for drinking.


It's not about the Epi-1:10,000 you gave the patient. Or how well you know the Body. It's how you are as a human being. Take care of your patient, then you'll actually truly save someone.
Click to expand...

You're gonna get plenty of crap on for this post from everyone on this forum. However you're not a paramedic yet. Finish your PARAMEDIC program, then ask yourself how your A&P class helped you become a better Medic. Trust me more education is great thing for a paramedic, if your friend can't pass an A&P class he wont pass your paramedic class.
 
Christopher said:
Did you know paramedics carry medications that can cause real harm if given inappropriately?
so do basics (eg. Nitro)
Do you know what we call pre-reqs in medicine? Chemistry, biology, anatomy, physiology, pathophysiology....hmm.
pharmacology,
Click to expand...
Other than that I'm in full agreement w/ you.
 
To the OP, I'm an engineer, too. I didn't understand the subtle benefits of the liberal arts courses I had to take until I started working. I discovered any knowledge that helps me communicate with others has value. You might want to withhold judgment on what constitutes "useless crap."
 
Veneficus said:
Actually, MDs don't.

It is broken down into 2 seperate disciplines.

There is Human gross anatomy. (sometimes called clinical anatomy, if it is not taught in the traditional model)


Physiology is a seperate class.

(accepting that there is some deviation in problem based learning and other integrated medical curriculums, but they are not the traditional standard which is still professed in most of the world)
Click to expand...

Pre-Med degrees have A&P are two seperate classes for all those professions listed above........ (atleast at the few collges I have looked at) Pre-Med degrees do not involve A&P? And then go into further depth in actual Medical school?
 
Fish said:
Pre-Med degrees have A&P are two seperate classes for all those professions listed above........ (atleast at the few collges I have looked at) Pre-Med degrees do not involve A&P? And then go into further depth in actual Medical school?
Click to expand...

Not that i have seen.

I agree with the powers that be that A&P prior to medical school is pointless.

The depth of human gross alone makes taking a&p a waste of time. "femur" is not going to be a detailed enough answer on a pin test.
 
What schools offer a degree in pre-med?:rolleyes:
 
Achilles said:
What schools offer a degree in pre-med?:rolleyes:
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Ones that just want to take your money and offer nothing in return.

It is sort of like a degree in bio. Most good bio jobs require at least 1 post doc. But yet many premeds still major in it. Encouraged by academic advisors.
 
Achilles said:
What schools offer a degree in pre-med?:rolleyes:
Click to expand...

Very few, though students here have designed their own degree to make them more attractive to medical schools. All the science requirements plus ethics and philosophy along with some global health stuff.

It is not uncommon to hear say a Bio major looking to apply to med school to be on a "pre-med" degree track.
 
Veneficus said:
Ones that just want to take your money and offer nothing in return.

It is sort of like a degree in bio. Most good bio jobs require at least 1 post doc. But yet many premeds still major in it. Encouraged by academic advisors.
Click to expand...

For many it just makes sense to major in Chem. Here it is 14 class major, so just taking the prereqs gets you 4. If you want research experience you need to take an additional 4 to even be considered, at this point you're well on your way to a degree.

Or you could do what I am doing and say screw that and major in Political Science (10 classes) and take the science requirements as "electives." I get to enjoy myself and have time for significant clinical experience during the school year.
 
Veneficus said:
Actually, MDs don't.

It is broken down into 2 seperate disciplines.

There is Human gross anatomy. (sometimes called clinical anatomy, if it is not taught in the traditional model)


Physiology is a seperate class.

(accepting that there is some deviation in problem based learning and other integrated medical curriculums, but they are not the traditional standard which is still professed in most of the world)
Click to expand...

Same with nursing. We take two separate classes - Anatomy (Not gross) and Physiology, each with their own lab. We also had a separate patho class

Did you take Gross as an undergrad or is it part of actual medical school? Did it include cadaver labs?
 
Chase said:
Same with nursing. We take two separate classes - Anatomy (Not gross) and Physiology, each with their own lab. We also had a separate patho class

Did you take Gross as an undergrad or is it part of actual medical school? Did it include cadaver labs?
Click to expand...

I took human gross in undergrad as part of biological anthropology with a cadaver lab that had 2 students per corpse and we did the full dissection.


I had to take it again with a cadaver lab 4 months later in medical school.

I have spent more time in anatomy than 99% of people spend in paramedic school total :)
 
Veneficus said:
I have spent more time in anatomy than 99% of people spend in paramedic school total :)
Click to expand...


You seem to like that quote a lot :P

If you add all my science labs together I think I would be getting close.

I am thinking about taking a few Grad / Advanced science classes to improve my resume, hopefully I can find a Gross Anatomy with Lab.
 
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