Amberlamps916
Droog
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People have different preferences/motivations/desires.
Any EMT-P going to PA School?
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You'd think that those groups would want at least a Bachelors, say what you will about measuring "intangibles" but someone who has has a four year degree has put some significant time into their prerequisites and has educational depth in hopefully a few other subjects.
Personally I think mid-levels can gain a bit more respect if the require a bit more than an Associates.
JPINFV
Gadfly
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I'm not entirely sure because I think that when most people think of a mid-level they generally think of a masters degree than an associates. It's like nurses. Sure, there's probably a handful of certificate programs around, but when I think of an entry level nurse, it's an associates degree with management being a bachelors.
VFlutter
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I am still trying to figure out which route to go (ACNP vs PA) but I think it is crazy you would be allowed to practice as a PA with out a masters, let alone a bachelors 
I am still trying to figure out which route to go (ACNP vs PA) but I think it is crazy you would be allowed to practice as a PA with out a masters, let alone a bachelors
That was my reaction at first, too. But when you think about it, what will you learn in 2 or 4 more years of degree education that you won't learn and need in PA school? One of my bio profs likes to say the PhDs in the department have more education than your general MD.
Not to mention, hiring salaries can be kept low and it won't go up until the degrees are gotten. And someone who is a PA isn't going to sit around for years at "entry level" not striving for the degrees. Peer pressure won't allow that to happen.
So much emphasis on the facade of someone with a degree vs someone without. RCC requires 2000 hours of clinical experience which a lot of other programs don't. You still have the same basic prerequisites minus the 4 year degree which could be in underwater basket weaving for all anybody cares and lastly let me ask those of you that put the emphasis on the degree do you consider a DNP to be on the same level as an MD?
VFlutter
Flight Nurse
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No, DNP is like a Phd, it's really has no focus on clinical care but it's geared towards the philosophy of the profession and educational/administration. Going from your MSN to a DNP probably won't make you a more competent practioner, that is not the purpose of the degree. But that is not really an argument to why mid levels should not have an advanced degree. I guess I can entertain an argument for not requiring a masters but you will never convince me that a bachelors is not required. And i strongly believe that the numerous courses I haven taken to get to a bachelors make me a better, more rounded, practioner. Philosphy, psychology, human development, managment, etc are not just useless classes to fluff up a degree. Also just because you have 2000 hrs of experience does not mean you have the sufficient knowledge to go onto advanced roles without the education to stand on.
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Using the same philosophy, I'd think life experience can trump most young people's degrees insofar as being well-rounded. We all have those "interesting" experiences with people with the degrees but no common sense.
Loma Linda requires 1000 hours and a degree. I think having prereqs and 2000 hours is comparable. Not to mention, they only allow in 30 students and each must follow very strict application process. And if your letter of recommendation can't compete, you don't get it. It's not as easy as you might think "just" for being a community college program.
ps. Not that I'm trying to change your mind, but just to give a different perspective on how to look at it.
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JPINFV
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I thought the DNP was geared towards nurses who wanted to pretend that they were physicians.
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DNP is really just what he said it is... more philosophy of the nursing profession and education/administration. Think of it more like a PhD than an MD/DO substitute.
Amberlamps916
Droog
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+1.....
JPINFV
Gadfly
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Too bad that's not how it's being marketed.
DNP training places an emphasis on preventive care, risk reduction and promoting good health practices. These clinicians are peerless prevention specialists and coordinators of complex care. In other words, as a patient, you get the medical knowledge of a physician, with the added skills of a nursing professional.
http://www.forbes.com/2007/11/27/nurses-doctors-practice-oped-cx_mom_1128nurses.html
Just to clarify most nurse educators or people interested in the philosophy of nursing science, epistemology, and research do not get a DNP but rather a PhD.
DNP was originally intended to take advanced practice nurses and better prepare them for leadership, clinical research, and some advancements in clinical practice. Obviously with the push for APNs to get DNPs, its a bit different today.
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^this
My point in a nutshell is that I value HCE more than I value a degree, not to take anything away from having a degree but IMO mid level practitioners are not and should not be an entry level job. That is partly what seperates PAs from MDs in my opinion.
What is more absurd to me then a medic/RT/LVN etc spending a few years working and then going to school to become a PA is the person with a degree in a completely unrelated field and no HCE getting into a program and becoming a practitioner in 2 years. Looking at the history of the PA profession you will see how/why the HCE came to be important.
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Using the same philosophy, I'd think life experience can trump most young people's degrees insofar as being well-rounded. We all have those "interesting" experiences with people with the degrees but no common sense.
Loma Linda requires 1000 hours and a degree. I think having prereqs and 2000 hours is comparable. Not to mention, they only allow in 30 students and each must follow very strict application process. And if your letter of recommendation can't compete, you don't get it. It's not as easy as you might think "just" for being a community college program.
ps. Not that I'm trying to change your mind, but just to give a different perspective on how to look at it.
As one of those young people getting a four year degree, I'll say that I can't imagine that there are many better ways to gain life experience in a hurry. College makes you live on your own, solve your own problems, and figure out a) how to learn for yourself and b) do you even enjoy learning and therefore should you consider further schooling at all? Are there people that "sneak" through college without ever doing this? Absolutely, but those people have completely missed the point of higher education.
I know that I'll be a better provider as a result of getting a Bachelors, even if it's the only degree I'll ever get. It's greatly improved my written and oral communication skills, forced me to read with purpose, and generally taught me to learn. I've also taken my prereqs at an (overly) challenging institution and got quite a lot out of them. Sure, you get all these things without getting a degree, but for me, a four year degree is what did it and I know many, many other people with similar views. And for what it's worth many PA programs "want" a degree and the clinical hours, I don't think one should be a substitute for the other.
FutureParamedic12
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While the PA school you are applying to may not require a degree, you bes' get one. Like stated above, getting into any professional school (no matter MD, DO, PA, etc.) is extremely difficult. I'm one of those full-time students with no job experience, but at least at Duke, every year at least 15% of the premed's who don't get into medical school will be snatching those spots in both degree and non-degree PA programs (these are students with 3.2+ GPA's, high GRE scores, tons of research experience, many hours of volunteering with their local EMS service, and an ivy league degree to top it).
Not trying to discourage anyone, but don't underestimate the competitiveness of PA school. It's not easy to get into.
Not trying to discourage anyone, but don't underestimate the competitiveness of PA school. It's not easy to get into.
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Well, my point was not to make it a false dichotomy. My point is that both are true, and if one has its drawbacks, so does the other. The point about RCC is that it's no slouch of a program nor its requirements. My overall goal was to lend some insight into that so that those whose kneejerk reaction is "No way! I'd never trust it!" because they know nothing more than there is no degree and then can hopefully reevaluate how they look at it.
By the way, the program at RCC has a partnership with a nearby school (I forget which) where you can attend to gain a masters. So as I said before, professional peer pressure isn't going to leave you alone about not pursuing further. Some might resist the pressure, but not most. Not to mention continuing education for licensing requirements.
ps. I most wholeheartedly disagree that one of the best ways to get life experience is in a college. You learn basic life skills as you point out, sure. But in no way do I agree that you gain a well rounded life experience that gives you innate life wisdom.
One might say, "What about those who are raising their own siblings, sleeping in their cars, come from war torn countries, etc?" To that I say it is in THOSE experiences they are becoming well-rounded. The college part? No. Sorry. To me the analogy is:
Going to college is gaining a well-rounded life as texting is to learning social skills.
Sorry, I disagree. It's not to be an insult, it's just life experience talking.
edit: I'd like to stress that I highly value degrees and education. But as an INTP (for those in the profile know) I value knowledge and intelligence above that and am skeptical of people with degrees who are slouches and lack character... and I unfortunately know quite a few.
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To say that it's "life experience" talking is a cop out if you didn't (for whatever reason) go to school away from home for four years. I don't know what you're background is, so all I'm left with is "don't knock it if you haven't tried it." Rest assured that I've already accepted that I'll lose this argument most times just because it's automatically assumed that by age 20 one cannot have amassed anything close to significant life experiences.