"Obama Care" versus wishful thinking

mycrofft

Still crazy but elsewhere
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I notice the opponents to Obama care tend to be rich, well-insured already, healthy, young, and-or just against Obama's presidency.

I notice supporters tend to be older, less well-off, less-insured, and sicker or handicapped.

Nowadays the cost of healthcare is ruinous if you have a chronic condition or have a catastrophic occurrence. Should we let these people just rot, or is it a measure of our society how well we take car of our weakest members (as someone famous once said)?

As prehospital providers, don't we see the people (other than the alcoholics and drug addicts and intentional leeches) who are living marginally because they can't work, and can';t afford to either get well or get decent housing/food/home assistance?

And didn't we go through all these conniptions (forced participation) when Social Security was invented in the early 20th Century? How many Obama-haters collect SocSec, Medicare or Medicaid?
 
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Veneficus

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mycrofft,

Stupid is a disease, it has a vector and creates pathology.

The whole argument about universal healthcare is often perpetuated by the grossly misinformed, irgnorant, and people with the most to gain.

The political tactic is very smart, convince poor people that the government will take what little they have.

Most Americans are educated by TV. They watch what they want to see.

They will vote to suffer with pride.

I gave up trying to educate them for free. May they receive all that they wish for in abundance.
 

SSwain

Forum Captain
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Look at what has happened to every program the Gov has tried to run....Not saying private health care is perfect...far from it.
I am more concerned with the parabolic curve of escalated costs that typically happen with Gov run programs...and the people who fleece the system shamelessly.

Look more at the insurance industries (and the lawyers that run them),,,that is where the costs have been driven from.

Just my $0.02
 

Veneficus

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res ipsa loquitur
 

Shishkabob

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How many Obama-haters collect SocSec, Medicare or Medicaid?

Not me, yet I pay more in to it then most of the people who receive it ever did, and it probably won't be around when I'm old enough to need it. Fair?



My 2 issues with Obamacare:

1) It was forced on a country where most of the people didn't want it... and 2 years later, STILL most of the people don't want it. That's not a Congress doing it's job to represent their constituents, that's a Congress forcing their will as they see fit.


2) It is NOT the federal governments responsibility to provide healthcare. It's not in the Constitution as a federal ability, and as such, is not the feds job.

My view has always been if a state wants to institute socialized medicine, it's their right, as delineated in the Constitution.


Until the fed fixes Medicare and does it right, they don't need to be trying to step even further in to healthcare.
 
OP
OP
mycrofft

mycrofft

Still crazy but elsewhere
11,322
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"Look at what has happened to every program the Gov has tried to run"
Cite which programs are bad. Better take a seat, there have been easily hundreds of thousands, starting with the Continental Congress and establishment of the US military, to the creation of EMT's, and passage pf the amendment banning alcohol....Rural Electrification Authorty. CCC, WPA, the post office...a wide brush. The Interstate Highway system.

I pay more in to it then most of the people who receive it ever did
Prove it. There are many wage earners with 20, 30 or more years paying in who are participants. Also, adjust your dollars for inflation. Your $1,000 today was $500 not that long ago.
It was forced on a country where most of the people didn't want it... and 2 years later, STILL most of the people don't want it
Cite the election results for this, or Roper poll or such. GOP or Fox News sources do not count.

It is NOT the federal governments responsibility to provide healthcare.

So we need to disassemble the VA, get rid of medical care in the military other than that making the force fighting ready, and severely pare back NIH and CDCP ? Plus others...
My view has always been if a state wants to institute socialized medicine, it's their right, as delineated in the Constitution
What chapter of the Constitution mentions socialized medicine being a state's right? Also, then each state has to sue their neighboring states with lesser health care to recover treatments for medical refugees?

Until the fed fixes Medicare and does it right, they don't need to be trying to step even further in to healthcare.
Wouldn't universal health coverage replace Medicare?

Now, all that said, Britain's medical situation is the model to tell us what to look out for. They socialized medicine; people can still buy what care they want above and beyond the basics, but the "socialized" part has been underfunded and stripped down so much that it no longer really fulfills its mission as it should. The system was sound, but it was gutted and abused more by its caretakers (Parliament) than its beneficiaries.

The real danger to universal health coverage, as it had been for the VA, Medicare, Indian health services through BIA, is that opponents can cripple and drag it down, and shortsighted proponents can gut it by lending its money to other founds (as Social Security had and has done). Then once the damage has been done, the detractors attribute this to intrinsic system failure, when in fact it was mugged.

Two points before I head out to do the shopping and etc:
1. WHEN does "ObamaCare" kick in? Are we seeing reactions to it, or to the reputation that has been generated by pundits?
2. Insurance, despite what we all wishfully think, is based upon getting a large pool of people who don't need it and won't use it, then invest/grow assets to offset inflation and prepare for massive draws on reserves such as financial debacle or disasters. It isn't this magic box you put your penny into and a five dollar bill magically pops out. (Althoug Bernie Madoff did that for a while).
 

Shishkabob

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Prove it. There are many wage earners with 20, 30 or more years paying in who are participants. Also, adjust your dollars for inflation. Your $1,000 today was $500 not that long ago.

You mean BESIDES the untold number of people in section 8 housing collecting food stamps for themselves just to sell them, have their kids on Medicaid, and yet pay very little if ANY in taxes? Not to mention those that drive cars worth more than some peoples 401ks? (And if you've been in EMS long enough, you've seen a luxury car parked in the ghetto...)



Cite the election results for this, or Roper poll or such. GOP or Fox News sources do not count.
So polls from the right side don't count but the left do? Double standard much?

Fine.

Rasmussens most recent poll states 56% want it repealed.

http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/current_events/healthcare/health_care_law


And in a Washington Post/ ABC news poll, 52% oppose the law, and 67% want the mandate struck down.

http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/politic...ches-two-thirds-say-ditch-individual-mandate/


And the RCP average is 50.5% oppose while just 38.5% favor the law.

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/other/obama_and_democrats_health_care_plan-1130.html







So we need to disassemble the VA, get rid of medical care in the military other than that making the force fighting ready, and severely pare back NIH and CDCP ? Plus others...
Like I said, it's not the feds responsibility. Can they provide it for federal employees? Sure, that's their prerogative. However, not their right nor prerogative to do it for the general populace.


What chapter of the Constitution mentions socialized medicine being a state's right?
You mean the 10th admenedment which is written in quite clear and easily understandable English, which states

"The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people."


It is quite clear with it's meaning. If it's not the federal governments responsibility, it is the states right to decide on the matter.


If you can point to me ANY time in the US Constitution or its amendments about the utterance of "Health", "healthcare" or any variation that is given to the US Federal Government, please do so.
 

homingmissile

Forum Crew Member
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Obamacare has its share of flaws but I don't expect the first attempt at universal healthcare to be perfect.

Personally, the thing that makes me support it the most is actually looking at the people who are foaming at the mouth to tear it down: the wealthy, the white, the already privately insured, and people who readily find ways to think everything Obama does is wrong.
 

Shishkabob

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Personally, the thing that makes me support it the most is actually looking at the people who are foaming at the mouth to tear it down: the wealthy, the white, the already privately insured, and people who readily find ways to think everything Obama does is wrong.

52% of the country are rich, white, and insured? Oh wait...no... they aren't. Plus, some 30% of democrats that voted for Obama oppose this law too... clearly it's NOT just the people who always try to find ways to think he's wrong.

Ignorant rhetoric, buddy.



You'd rather support something just to make people angry than for any other reason at all, such as 'what is good and right', or what benefits people. Yeah... I really want someone like you voting for our leaders.
 
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homingmissile

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52% of the country are rich, white, and insured?


You'd rather support something just to make people angry than for any other reason at all, such as 'what is good and right', or what benefits people. Yeah... I really want someone like you voting for our leaders.

It took me a moment to get where you got the 52% figure. I see the statistics too but I don't have a lot of confidence in how much they actually represent reality. Voter apathy hasn't gone away and the loudest faction isn't always the biggest.

I'm not supporting it out of spite. The right-wing has never needed provocation to harumph about anything, they do that fine to and by themselves.

Do you not consider universal healthcare, even if it's just a flawed attempt at it, something that at least tries to benefit the people? You think the voucher option is the way to go? Is that really plan for the future?

It might make you feel ill to think someone like me is voting, but at least I'm taking part in the democratic process, instead of calling for birth certificates and such.
 

epipusher

Forum Asst. Chief
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Is this a troll post, or is the ts truly blind in the ways of the world? How many of the uninsured choose to be uninsured? How many of the "less fortunate" choose to be so by choosing to not further their education and in doing so open up more opportunities for a better paying job?
 

bigbaldguy

Former medic seven years 911 service in houston
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If you can point to me ANY time in the US Constitution or its amendments about the utterance of "Health", "healthcare" or any variation that is given to the US Federal Government, please do so.

We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

:p
 

Shishkabob

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We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

:p

The preamble was never intended to indicate the powers of the government, just the purpose of the document. :p



I'm not supporting it out of spite.

That is PRECISELY what you're doing, and in your own words:


Personally, the thing that makes me support it the most is actually looking at the people who are foaming at the mouth to tear it down
 

akflightmedic

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I may be wrong but I recall stories about a man named JC who went around and healed people for free...these people were beggars, women, children, criminals, poor...you name it. Some even called his healthcare plan a "miracle".

Now if only those who follow the book in every regard when it benefits them personally would also heed the lessons which are more altruistic in nature...especially when it is your savior who set the example.

(Please refrain from he helps those who help themselves rhetoric as that is an excuse for those who need an excuse to avoid helping their fellow man).
 

Vetitas86

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Call me crazy, but the ideals of American society are more in line with the ability to pull yourself up than accept handouts, which is what government healthcare is.

There's a reason its called socialized healthcare in some circles, due to the fact that its based off a government run and regulated system, which is, in turn socialist.

There was a time in our history that people were too proud to accept handouts, even those in need. Pride is a flaw yes, but its also a motivator. People wanted to improve their situation and the ability to do so. That's where the capitalist system came from.

Free market medicine has its problems. Lots of them. But it does encourage competition and innovation that comes from that.

Do I think the Fed should intervene in insuring everyone? Hell no. From a states rights standpoint to a financial standpoint to an academic and medical standpoint, it doesn't make sense to do so when an admittedly marginally better system is currently in place.

I believe that more focus should be given to preventative care and using midlevel practitioners and the like to make healthcare more affordable while still remaining well within a free market system.
 

akflightmedic

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I believe that more focus should be given to preventative care and using midlevel practitioners and the like to make healthcare more affordable while still remaining well within a free market system.

Agreed. However, the first part of your statement is counter to the latter.

How do your propose affordable, open access to healthcare while keeping it in the free market system?
 

Vetitas86

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Midlevel vs physician lowers costs. There's still a need for physicians to supervise and perform advanced procedure, etc. So it remains free market. Allow midlevels to practice with less oversight while still remaining tethered to a physician, especially in rural and underserved areas, and it becomes more feasible.

It would be more affordable than it is, and I think that would be a start if nothing else. Like I said, its a flawed system. It's my opinion that a completely open and free system would add to the shortage of primary care specialists, among other things.
 

akflightmedic

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Midlevel vs physician lowers costs. There's still a need for physicians to supervise and perform advanced procedure, etc. So it remains free market. Allow midlevels to practice with less oversight while still remaining tethered to a physician, especially in rural and underserved areas, and it becomes more feasible.

It would be more affordable than it is, and I think that would be a start if nothing else. Like I said, its a flawed system. It's my opinion that a completely open and free system would add to the shortage of primary care specialists, among other things.

The midlevel scenario is already being used and has been for many years. Do you know who pays for it and regulates it? The Federal Govt.
 

bigbaldguy

Former medic seven years 911 service in houston
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The preamble was never intended to indicate the powers of the government, just the purpose of the document. :p

Some would argue that its design was to offer both the purpose and the underlying philosophy. Of course there are those that would argue that the original document was actually a letter to the King of England asking if he had prince Albert in a can but that document was eaten by Ben franklins dog and the whole thing had to be re written at the last minute by William Whipple who was the only one there who wasn't too drunk to hold a quill. After everyone sobered up they realized they had signed the wrong document but figured "what the hell let's go with it".
 

EpiEMS

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The midlevel scenario is already being used and has been for many years. Do you know who pays for it and regulates it? The Federal Govt.

Isn't the regulation of medical practice a quasi-private function, with licensure provided by the states?
To be fair, though, training (especially for physicians) is heavily federally subsidized.
 
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